Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[[Bregs]]

Rafale deal to figure in Defence Acquisition Council meeting on Thursday


NEW DELHI: The much hyped multi-billion dollar Rafale deal could see some forward movement tomorrow as the top acquisition body of the Defence Ministry is set to take a review of the negotiations held so far into the purchase of the French fighters.

Defence sources said the Rafale fighter jet deal is one of the issues that will be discussed during the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council tomorrow at the South Block.

As per the normal process, once the deal is cleared by Defence Ministry, the file will go to the Finance Ministry and then to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final clearance.

In an interview to PTI in May, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said he was looking at wrapping up the deal soon and this could mean by end of June or July.

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months.


The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Rafale deal to figure in Defence Acquisition Council meeting on Thursday


NEW DELHI: The much hyped multi-billion dollar Rafale deal could see some forward movement tomorrow as the top acquisition body of the Defence Ministry is set to take a review of the negotiations held so far into the purchase of the French fighters.

Defence sources said the Rafale fighter jet deal is one of the issues that will be discussed during the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council tomorrow at the South Block.

As per the normal process, once the deal is cleared by Defence Ministry, the file will go to the Finance Ministry and then to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final clearance.

In an interview to PTI in May, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said he was looking at wrapping up the deal soon and this could mean by end of June or July.

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months.


The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Nice..
Can some one help me understand one small view point

this line

The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

English is a funny language..
So by this line do you understand offsets as

1. Euro 3 Bn
2. Euro 3.25 Bn
3. Euro 3.5 Bn
4. Euro 4 Bn

Bcz then deal should be inclusive of weapons

1. Euro 6 Bn = $6.5 Bn+ $1Bn weapons =$7.5 Bn
2. Euro 6.5 bn or $8.1 bn
3. Euro 7 Bn or $ $8.7 Bn
4. Euro 8 Bn or $9.8 Bn

Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?

@Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio

 

[Tameem]

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros

This is the Actual Deal Frenchs are agreed with

The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros

This is what India is up for Bargaining...So the Difference between French and Indians is 1.89B Euros.

 

[Taygibay]

OFF-Topic

Bhartis is a derogatory term similar in context to "Frogs used by the British for French".* I request you to not to use it, if it was used out of ignorance. If the offense was intended then

Whoa, calm down please, my good man! A joke was intended, obviously, but no offense!
How could Bharatis be an insult? The goddess is not a demeaning reference now, is it?
Nor are the director, the actress, the film or do you mean Indians then insult themselves?
Your South Pole station to be is named after an insult?

I use Bharati to describe those that think India is older then 1947, that it has a long past.
If I called Pakistanis : Indus descendants, I trust they'd see it as a recognition of the same!

At most, I'd accept a link to a given

known forum to be
seen as derogatory but that was not the idea.

But yes, I am sorry to say that indulging in wishful thinking is very Indian in this context.
If you conflate the news on this thread as Sven suggested, to which I was responding BTW ...
- in 3 to 5 years, the IAF would sport its present aircrafts ( MKI-29s-2000s-Jags-LCA )

1. plus LCA Mk1+++,
2. F-18
3. Gripen E
4. LCA Mk2
5. F-16 IN
6. PAK-FA/FGFA
7. F-35
8. F-22
9. and heck AMCA why not ...
10. with LSA lurking in the shadows.

Talk about MFF, huh? Add 2 types and the old ones and you could build squadrons with all different ACs!!!

Noting the radical unlikelihood of the above is not an insult, it's common sense.

Sorry to have upset you, relax and have a good night, Tay.

End of OFF-Topic.

@PARIKRAMA

A minima : you can go higher but not lower.
If the deal is extended with a MII component or a Rafale M buy for example,
there could yet be more gains for India.
Or let's just imagine that those Raffys stay in service longer than expected
or at ISO numbers get more annual flight hours, there would be a need for
more support which would mean more business for the Indian corps / JVs
involved in the local Rafale industrial ecosystem.

That sort of things, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

? Always read the contrary.
Maybe, maybe F35 is stealthier than F22 in front sector, but it was said that F35 is mainly stealthier in front area, while F22 is all sector stealthier.

F-35 is all aspect stealth. It is radar stealthy from the rear too. Both jets have the same treatment against cavity resonance. The F-35 has a disadvantage with edge diffraction from the rear, but it's not a significant problem, you have to be at co-altitude for it to be a big problem.

And when you have a look to F35, it is less pure and clean design than F22.
No bump, same diamond nose, same tilted fin, better shaped air entry in the F22. It must help in final RCS result.

It's pointless to consider such differences. Both aircraft have very different dimensions and designs.

Our 5th gen plane will be a UCAV developped with GB (and Deutchland?)

6th.

Nice..
Can some one help me understand one small view point

this line


English is a funny language..
So by this line do you understand offsets as

1. Euro 3 Bn
2. Euro 3.25 Bn
3. Euro 3.5 Bn
4. Euro 4 Bn

Bcz then deal should be inclusive of weapons

1. Euro 6 Bn = $6.5 Bn+ $1Bn weapons =$7.5 Bn
2. Euro 6.5 bn or $8.1 bn
3. Euro 7 Bn or $ $8.7 Bn
4. Euro 8 Bn or $9.8 Bn

Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?

@Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio

It's just a media estimate. Don't go by it. We don't know the INR component in the deal. Offsets is only for the forex component.

 

[Dash]

Nice..
Can some one help me understand one small view point

this line


English is a funny language..
So by this line do you understand offsets as

1. Euro 3 Bn
2. Euro 3.25 Bn
3. Euro 3.5 Bn
4. Euro 4 Bn

Bcz then deal should be inclusive of weapons

1. Euro 6 Bn = $6.5 Bn+ $1Bn weapons =$7.5 Bn
2. Euro 6.5 bn or $8.1 bn
3. Euro 7 Bn or $ $8.7 Bn
4. Euro 8 Bn or $9.8 Bn

Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?

@Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio

Tay ji pretty much summed it up. It's just a speculation. But this tells me one thing that the offset is directly proportional to order value, a higher order value is a bigger liability for French but still they go for higher amount.

Why? Because we all know what a joke offsets are, don't we?

@Taygibay @Abingdonboy

 

[randomradio]

Whoa, calm down please, my good man! A joke was intended, obviously, but no offense! How could Bharatis be an insult? The goddess is not a demeaning reference now, is it? Nor are the director, the actress, the film or do you mean Indians then insult themselves?
Your South Pole station to be is named after an insult?

India's alternate name of Bharat is named after a mythical warrior of great strength. Bharati is a girl's name. They are not related in anyway.

The right word for Indians is Bharatiya for singular and Bharatiyon in plural. Using Bharati is the equivalent of saying Frenchie or Ruskie or Jap. It's not derogatory anywhere else except PDF. I know you weren't being insulting, just FYI.

But yes, I am sorry to say that indulging in wishful thinking is very Indian in this context.
If you conflate the news on this thread as Sven suggested, to which I was responding BTW ...
- in 3 to 5 years, the IAF would sport its present aircrafts ( MKI-29s-2000s-Jags-LCA )

1. plus LCA Mk1+++,
2. F-18
3. Gripen E
4. LCA Mk2
5. F-16 IN
6. PAK-FA/FGFA
7. F-35
8. F-22
9. and heck AMCA why not ...
10. with LSA lurking in the shadows.

Talk about MFF, huh? Add 2 types and the old ones and you could build squadrons with all different ACs!!!

That's pretty much how it has always been.
Mig-21
Mig-23
Mig-25
Mig-27
Mig-29
Mirage-2000
Jaguar
Gnat
Marut
Hunter
Ouragan
Vampire
Mystere
Su-7

Only Ouragan and Mystere did not stay for long. That's still 12 types right there. All these aircraft have functioned together, almost.

Now it will be reduced to 6, and with 2 types on their last legs or in storage.
MKI
Rafale
LCA
Gripen/F-16/LSA
FGFA
AMCA

M-2000
Jaguar

All other aircraft you mentioned are options.

DAC doesn't work like that. You need MOD approval for any discussion on any strategic or tactical things to be discussed in DAC. in case we all forgot here "MMRCA is being actively pursued by PMO and MOD is a secondary stakeholder.

That means if you need to discuss MII with a link to MMRCA it needs backing of PMO.

I clearly don't see that's the case here. For MMRCA Modi is the boss not Parikar. No matter what.

There's no such thing.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-establishes-defence-acquisition-council.html

Guys, everything goes through DAC. Only nuclear bombs and warheads go through PMO.

 

[Dash]

India's alternate name of Bharat is named after a mythical warrior of great strength. Bharati is a girl's name. They are not related in anyway.

The right word for Indians is Bharatiya for singular and Bharatiyon in plural. Using Bharati is the equivalent of saying Frenchie or Ruskie or Jap. It's not derogatory anywhere else except PDF. I know you weren't being insulting, just FYI.



That's pretty much how it has always been.
Mig-21
Mig-23
Mig-25
Mig-27
Mig-29
Mirage-2000
Jaguar
Gnat
Marut
Hunter
Ouragan
Vampire
Mystere
Su-7

Only Ouragan and Mystere did not stay for long. That's still 12 types right there. All these aircraft have functioned together, almost.

Now it will be reduced to 6, and with 2 types on their last legs or in storage.
MKI
Rafale
LCA
Gripen/F-16/LSA
FGFA
AMCA

M-2000
Jaguar

All other aircraft you mentioned are options.



There's no such thing.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-establishes-defence-acquisition-council.html

Guys, everything goes through DAC. Only nuclear bombs and warheads go through PMO.

Since when Rafale was a part of DAC? I bet Modi didn't care about DAC when he signed mou with France. Leave that Parker guy aside and let him have his little games to it.

Spare me the line of functioning lecture please

 

[randomradio]

Since when Rafale was a part of DAC? I bet Modi didn't care about DAC when he signed mou with France. Leave that Parker guy aside and let him have his little games to it.

Spare me the line of functioning lecture please

Everything goes through DAC. PM took a decision and transferred the entire decision to Parrikar. Modi signed the first MoU, but it was Parrikar who changed everything. He was the one who added offsets, industrial production, new configuration etc.

What Modi had signed for was an immediate purchase of 36 Rafales with French specifications, without offsets or industrial production. That was meant for SFC, his department. But SFC has decided to follow the IAF when it comes to fighter aircraft because they lack the expertise. The MMRCA program for 126 aircraft was separate from the contract for 36. Parrikar then canceled MMRCA and took over the 36 aircraft project and expanded that to 180 jets under MII.

Lecture is good when facts are necessary. So listen to all opinions. Modi has nothing to do with military MII. He's busy doing everything else.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.

LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..

I really wonder what does IAF has to say about the Loss of TIME

 

[randomradio]

I really wonder what does IAF has to say about the Loss of TIME

There's no loss of time because 36 jets will be purchased from French lines directly. Earlier it was 18 jets.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

There's no loss of time because 36 jets will be purchased from French lines directly. Earlier it was 18 jets.

If you say so Mate

There is a saying " Too many cooks spoil the Broth "

If we can use this analogy for IAF

" Too many choices will only cause a confusion and deadlock "

 

[Dash]

Everything goes through DAC. PM took a decision and transferred the entire decision to Parrikar. Modi signed the first MoU, but it was Parrikar who changed everything. He was the one who added offsets, industrial production, new configuration etc.

What Modi had signed for was an immediate purchase of 36 Rafales with French specifications, without offsets or industrial production. That was meant for SFC, his department. But SFC has decided to follow the IAF when it comes to fighter aircraft because they lack the expertise. The MMRCA program for 126 aircraft was separate from the contract for 36. Parrikar then canceled MMRCA and took over the 36 aircraft project and expanded that to 180 jets under MII.

Lecture is good when facts are necessary. So listen to all opinions. Modi has nothing to do with military MII. He's busy doing everything else.

You have no idea what you are saying.

But it's good for discussion and will benefit the larger audience. So let me start.

That DAC which was chaired by Anatolia sat over the MMRCA for 8 years still didn't clear the deal because Anatolia had a clear mandate not to clear the deal. Thats just starter.

Now let's come to main course.

AJ who when took over DAC couldn't get a head and tail of it and passed the buck to Peter Parker who still swings from one skyscraper to another skyscraper.

Modi when he saw the mess decided to bypass that and passed on a political resolution with a clear mindset on what we need. He announced something what no other DAC could do in ten years.

DAC is where military stops and politics take over. It's the starting point of a song that can only be sung by PMO.

The attitudinal somersault that has been shown by DAC over the decades has been observed and de-gravitated by PMO.

NOW. Peter doesn't even have a say in anything. If that was the say then S300 would have been de-prioritized but it's been cleared.

Last but not the least I will give an example.
Aravind panagariya is said to become the next RBI governor. Now the challenge is an RBI gov is a cabinet sec while Aravind is at Mos level.

He (Modi) is ready to do constitutional amendment because he likes something and feels it's better for the nation.

And you are talking about a puny def min and his DAC.

GOOD LUCK

 

[randomradio]

You have no idea what you are saying.

But it's good for discussion and will benefit the larger audience. So let me start.

That DAC which was chaired by Anatolia sat over the MMRCA for 8 years still didn't clear the deal because Anatolia had a clear mandate not to clear the deal. Thats just starter.

Now let's come to main course.

AJ who when took over DAC couldn't get a head and tail of it and passed the buck to Peter Parker who still swings from one skyscraper to another skyscraper.

Modi when he saw the mess decided to bypass that and passed on a political resolution with a clear mindset on what we need. He announced something what no other DAC could do in ten years.

DAC is where military stops and politics take over. It's the starting point of a song that can only be sung by PMO.

The attitudinal somersault that has been shown by DAC over the decades has been observed and de-gravitated by PMO.

NOW. Peter doesn't even have a say in anything. If that was the say then S300 would have been de-prioritized but it's been cleared.

Last but not the least I will give an example.
Aravind panagariya is said to become the next RBI governor. Now the challenge is an RBI gov is a cabinet sec while Aravind is at Mos level.

He (Modi) is ready to do constitutional amendment because he likes something and feels it's better for the nation.

And you are talking about a puny def min and his DAC.

GOOD LUCK

Lol. All that you said is the exact opposite of what's happening.

And constitutional amendment requires 2/3rd votes in both LS and RS. And why will Modi break something when Parrikar has done a brilliant job fixing?

It may take a few months to a few years, but you will know everything that Parrikar's been doing pretty soon.

Oh, S-400 is Parrikar's deal, nothing to do with Modi.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?

@Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio

My reading of it is the Indian media aren't careful enough to avoid making mistakes, they add meaningless terms and text without understanding the ramifications of their content