Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Deino]

I think you will be in for a surprise.

The restarting of the line is not completely realistic for just 194 units that the USAF wants. Adding a 300+ export order is what will make the line feasible, especially if the F-22 has to compete with the PAK FA's upcoming avionics.



India rejecting the F-22 is more likely.

But what I had asked for is an opinion on how you think China will react to F-22s in India, regardless of whether the Germans make it to Mars and beyond. Think of it as being a hypothetical question if you want. I'm looking for a pro-Chinese perspective.

O.k. ... but then give me please some time to consider.

Concerning a F-22-restart I still have a different opinion ... but anyway.

More later.

 

[randomradio]

Not in any form, export or not. The production line is closed, prohibitively expensive to reopen and buried in a f*cking desert somewhere in the Western US. And this isn't even to mention the requirement of Congressional approval, which isn't likely either, nor to mention the US likes to maintain a qualitative edge over even its allies.

The F-22 will piggy back on the F-35's development.

And there is apparently a new plan in place. Instead of going for a 20 or 30 year development cycle for the next best, the US plans on modernizing an existing fighter that can be made operational in the next 5-10 years.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-wants-on-time-f-x-not-more-f-22s-422950/

“Because we want to do it faster and don’t want to do another 20-year development programme for a whole host of reasons, we’ll try and go with technology that are at a high readiness level now with manufacturing capabilities that are at a high readiness level now,” Lt Gen James Holmes tells a Senate Armed Services subcommittee panel in response to questions about restarting F-22 production.

“I think it’s completely possible as we get the requirements that there may be competitors that bid on modification of an existing technology or platform like the F-22 and the F-35.”

So a modernized F-22 is a possibility. And to make this possible, the US has to either buy a lot of jets on their own, or export it to other countries to make up for economies of scale. At least LM will market it that way. It will make the program more time compliant and more affordable than a new design.

Which means restarting the F-22 is not off the table yet.

There's this as well.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-backs-off-sixth-gen-fighter-in-quest-for-air-423994/

 

[Taygibay]

I should start handing out negative ratings for this kind of garbage.

Wouldn't it be simpler to bar Bharatis from PDF altogether?
Because that's what it equates to ... if you give negs to wishful thinking.

Just sayin', Tay.

 

[Spectre]

Wouldn't it be simpler to bar Bharatis from PDF altogether?
Because that's what it equates to ... if you give negs to wishful thinking.

Just sayin', Tay.

Monsieur! C'est grossier de votre part.

Indians don't have a patent on wishful thinking nor are they the primary offenders either here or elsewhere. Bhartis is a derogatory term similar in context to "Frogs used by the British for French".* I request you to not to use it, if it was used out of ignorance. If the offense was intended then Je me tire

 

[Ali Zadi]

The F-35 has a smaller RCS than the F-22.

The U.S. Air Force, in it's effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how "stealthy" the F-22 is. It's RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it's more likely that the aircraft won't be detected at all.

Source : Search Google for "strategypage 20051125" first result is the source dated Nov 2005.

 

[randomradio]

The U.S. Air Force, in it's effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how "stealthy" the F-22 is. It's RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it's more likely that the aircraft won't be detected at all.

Source : Search Google for "strategypage 20051125" first result is the source dated Nov 2005.

Yes, and then General Hostage showed up and said the F-35 has a smaller RCS and is more stealthy than the F-22.

 

[Abingdonboy]

• Indian order will be further divided into exclusive access to the following
  • 75% of the F16 order will be eligible for F35 purchase under reduced rates post 2022
  • 66% of the F16 order will be eligible for a new fighter F22 E (exports) post 2020-22. to be purchased by only handful of nations (5 in numbers as of now with Japan and India and 3 others with limited purchases)

• The export version of F22 E will be first lucrative point of technology being shared between USA for Japan 5th gen program and India's AMCA.

This really is getting out of control now bro, there is NO WAY India will be operating FOUR different types of 5th gen fighter* (FGFA, AMCA, F-35 and F-22 "E"). For the long term interests of India the AMCA and FGFA are the ONLY way to go, the F-22 would kill the FGFA and the F-35 would kill the AMCA.

Nothing the Americans are offering seems attractive to me.



* please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type

 

[Ali Zadi]

Yes, and then General Hostage showed up and said the F-35 has a smaller RCS and is more stealthy than the F-22.

Yes but then

"Now, we all know that a lot of things can go happen between the interviewee’s brain and the interviewer’s keyboard, but the idea that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22 contradicts pretty much everything that has been said about the program for the past 20 years, including the reporting of my former colleague, the usually well-informed Dave Fulghum.

The statement is curious for other reasons. Nobody ever suggested in the program’s formative years that the goal was to beat the F-22's stealth - and indeed that would be extremely unlikely since the JSF was designed for export. Stealth, along with other requirements, was also subject to trades in the development of the final JSF requirement, and less important than life-cycle cost.

The geometrical basics of stealth -- sweep and cant angles, minimized small-radius curves and nozzle design -- favor the F-22, and everything anyone has said about radar absorbent materials for years has been about life-cycle cost rather than performance.

Hostage is effusive about the value of the F-35’s sensor fusion and datalinks, too:

“Fusion says here’s what’s out there. You told me, this one right here’s a threat. Here’s what it’s doing right now. Here’s what your wingman (knows): he sees he’s got a missile on the right, so I’m not going to waste a missile because I already see that my wingman’s taking care of it.”"


Source: Google "aviationweek & f-35-stealthier-f-22" again first link

 

[Dash]

This really is getting out of control now, there is NO WAY India will be operating FOUR different types of 5th gen fighter* (FGFA, AMCA, F-35 and F-22 "E"). For the long term interests of India the AMCA and FGFA are the ONLY way to go, the F-22 would kill the FGFA and the F-35 would kill the AMCA.

Nothing the Americans are offering seems attractive to me.



* please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type

Just don't bother..

 

[migflug]

Sorry bro but USA may give us f 22 but only after 2070 just like f16(when it will be obsolete)

 

[[Bregs]]

This really is getting out of control now bro, there is NO WAY India will be operating FOUR different types of 5th gen fighter* (FGFA, AMCA, F-35 and F-22 "E"). For the long term interests of India the AMCA and FGFA are the ONLY way to go, the F-22 would kill the FGFA and the F-35 would kill the AMCA.

Nothing the Americans are offering seems attractive to me.



* please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type

lol well said bro

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Tomorrow is a DAC meeting.
So tomorrow Rafale deal note will be discussed in DAC. Of course its upto DM MP whether he forwards the note or not .. Or keep it pending like always..

 

[[Bregs]]

Tomorrow is a DAC meeting.
So tomorrow Rafale deal note will be discussed in DAC. Of course its upto DM MP whether he forwards the note or not .. Or keep it pending like always..

It means bro DM do not have any urgency or pressure to act faster frm PMO ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It means bro DM do not have any urgency or pressure to act faster frm PMO ?

not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.

LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..

 

[[Bregs]]

not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.

LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..

agreed but all these offers have nothing to do at least with the signing of 36 Rafale aircrafts, he can delay rafale MII but not the ready made deal for 36