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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

For a small side hint look for F21 and F17 mod2 and beyond
There is a huge difference between F21, a up to date torpedo, and the F17 even mod 2, which entered service 26 years ago !
The price probably very different, but the perf even more different.
 
There is a huge difference between F21, a up to date torpedo, and the F17 even mod 2, which entered service 26 years ago !
The price probably very different, but the perf even more different.

True but you know how we will bargain... i mean rafale deal has shown clearly what we will want at what price range...

But of course F21 is one of the front runner among replacements..
 
That's what I have heard as he is being looked as successor to Modi.

Of course the deal has way too much strategic parlance.. There is far bigger things then I am quoting here as well as what will ever come out in public eyes..

For a small side hint look for F21 and F17 mod2 and beyond..that's what's being touted as Blackshark replacements for scorpene. And both these torpedoes is by DCNS. Don't be surprised if something from that deal comes to indigenous varunastra to further refine and upgrade it.. Since the need of such torpedoes is much bigger for SSKs and future other N fleet, there is something being worked out to keep things favourable to India in all situations. Further details at an appropriate time.



MP needs to be rotated to not just defence but perhaps a more important portfolio like finance as well as a role in External affairs. That is my personal opinion. a PM is a plum posting where its a mix of many chairs and having defense ministry experience is a huge plus as it makes you work closely with our friends like France, Russia, japan and to some extent USA as well as take into consideration issues with China. Now a stint in Finance will enable him to understand our country economy better. Goa had just tourism, shipping and minerals.. Not much beyond it whereas the whole country has much diversified economic conditions and industry. Thus it's paramount that instead of being a lameduck PM who knows not much and depends on FM to do the real work , he needs to have a ground up experience. Also with his particular quotes and gaffes, it's important he knows diplomacy part better.. He has played the bad cop role convincingly now he needs a good cop role prt too..


As for Rafale. Barring limited things most if it has to be via MII as we won't be able to hide much if we do it on flyaway basis strategic help. Of course in something's it's a natural choice and progression like the case of DCNS getting us AIP or N tech help in ACC or in barracuda stealth tech part.. But most of the LCA and AMCA tech part comes only with MII work.


Hope MII gets selected in 2017 march like DM said.
If it gets dragged , LCA , AMCA help would be late.

------------------

Wonderful idea about rotation of ministries.. To know who is the best PM material and give experience to qualify for PM chair .

BJP needs to win many elections for this to succeed ..:tup:
I trust Rahul ji will help in making this come real ..:D
 
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True but you know how we will bargain... i mean rafale deal has shown clearly what we will want at what price range...

But of course F21 is one of the front runner among replacements..
F21 : more than 50km range. more than 50 knots. wire guided AND auto guided.

F17 mk 2 : 20km+ range, 40 knots, only wire guided....

Same difference than between a Mig 17 and a Mig 29 (not to be too french)
 
India will get 36 Rafale fighters only by 2023
Published May 27, 2016
SOURCE: YAHOO
With the French Defence Minister having made his government’s best offer, price negotiations with France for 36 Rafale fighters are in their end stages. Earlier this month, the Chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, flew in India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. This was meant to showcase the IAF’s faith in the fighter produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is yet to earn the Final Operational Clearance (FOC). An order for 40 Tejases has been placed by the IAF and the first three fighters are planned to be inducted this year. But the signing of the Rafale deal and induction of Tejas fighters will not reverse the poor state of the IAF, which has been public knowledge for a few years now. To counter a “two-front collusive threat”, the IAF wants 45 fighter squadrons but has been sanctioned 42 by the government. In March, the Vice Chief of the IAF lamented that they had only 33 squadrons, which were inadequate to fulfill their designated role. The number of fighter squadrons will dwindle further as 3 squadrons of MiG-21M retire in 2018, along with the 2 squadrons of MiG-27 UPG. The 6 squadrons of MiG-21 Bison will be out of service by 2022. Of the current fleet, the legacy fighters — 6 squadrons of the Jaguar, 3 of the Mirage-2000 and three of MiG-29 — will last in service till 2030. How does the IAF plan to make up for the existing shortfall and the forthcoming reductions? First up is the Tejas. An order for 40 aircraft has been placed with HAL, 20 of which are projected to be in service by mid-2018. By mid-2020, the full complement will be in service and, by then, a HAL official said, possibly more in hope than out of conviction, “the FOC will have come”. With Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar throwing his weight behind the Tejas, Ministry sources have confirmed that an order for 80 Tejas-Mk1A — an improved version of the aircraft — will be placed with HAL. The prototype of Tejas-Mk1A will be ready by 2018, and HAL hopes to have the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) by 2020. It can then be put into production on the Tejas assembly line, which would be free. The workhorse of the IAF will, however, continue to be the Russian Sukhoi MKI. The HAL plant at Nashik produces 12 Sukhois every year, and the IAF expects to have its full complement of 272 Sukhois by 2020. As Parrikar informed Parliament, the serviceability state of Sukhois in service is a worrying 53%. Assuming the Rafale deal is signed shortly, the 36 fighters will be with the IAF only by 2023. Having only 36 fighters of one type makes little sense logistically or operationally. There was talk of a follow-up deal for more Rafales which could be assembled in India, but this is by no means a certainty. If — and this is a big if — all goes to plan, the IAF will be able to maintain its current squadron levels. To make up for the shortfall, Parrikar has indicated another imported fighter will be needed. Three are believed to be in contention: US F-16 and F-18, and the Swedish Gripen. Lockheed Martin has proposed shifting the F-16 assembly line to India but it is a previous generation fighter. The F-18 proposal doesn’t include an assembly line in India, and the IAF is not too enamoured of it. Sweden has made the right noises about transfer of technology and production of Gripen under ‘Make in India’; a formal proposal is expected next month. Meanwhile, the Russians have been pushing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which was supposed to be jointly developed by Russia and India. India’s lack of interest was apparent from its failure to pay as per schedule. Russia has already developed the fighter with stealth capabilities, and wants India to pay $ 3.7 billion so that HAL can start producing them in India after its Sukhoi assembly line at Nashik is free. The FGFA, however, is needed to replace the legacy fighters which will be in service till 2030. By then, should the Defence Ministry commit strongly to the project, the Aeronautical Development Agency’s (ADA’s) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) could be poised to enter service. The project needs funding commitment from the government next year, and it hopes to fly the first aircraft in eight years. Another four years will be needed for the IOC. But all this is still in the planning stage. The reality is that the Rafale deal is yet to be signed while the Tejas-Mk1A is still on paper. The rest, from AMCA to FGFA to another foreign fighter, are also in the realm of the future. The IAF, meanwhile, remains at dangerously low squadron strength, with no clarity about its future. Posted in India

..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/india-will-get-36-rafale-fighters-2023/ .
 
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Credit
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Credit BOECKLER Fred ‏@BOECKLERFred
 
@PARIKRAMA

Rafale fighter deal: Manohar Parrikar to meet French counterpart in Singapore
As India and France look at closing the multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets soon, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar will meet his French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian in Singapore this week.



As India and France look at closing the multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets soon, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar will meet his French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian in Singapore this week.

Parrikar will be travelling to Singapore on June 2 to attend the Shangri-La Dialogue from June 3


“Both Indian and French Defence Ministers will meet on June 3. Rafale among others will be discussed,” a defence source said.

The issues like consensus on actions to be taken in case of a material breach, stringent liability clause and guarantee by French side are likely to be discussed.

Parrikar had last week said the government is looking at concluding the much-hyped Rafale deal next month, more than a year after Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 fighter jets during his visit to France.

The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

It is expected that the deal would work out to be about 7.8 Billion Euros including the missiles and other support system.

The Shangri-La Dialogue is an inter-governmental security forum held annually by an independent think-tank, the International Institute for Strategic Studies, and is attended by defence ministers and military chiefs of 28 Asia-Pacific countries.

Last year, US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter had attended the dialogue along with German and the French Defence Ministers among others.

Subjects to be debated in this year’s dialogue include how to meet Asia’s complex security challenges, how to manage military competition in Asia and how to make defence policy in uncertain times.

http://www.financialexpress.com/art...-meet-french-counterpart-in-singapore/269465/
 
http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...e-des-avions-civils-et-militaires-2002525.php

Eric Trappier (Dassault Aviation): "With the Rafale, a complete American domination was prevented"
Anne Bauer www.lesechos.fr 31/05 at 07:00 Updated at 07:44

Dassault Aviation is celebrating its hundredth anniversary. The group wants to stay the course of combat drones and works on space transportation. Meeting with its CEO, Eric Trappier.

To celebrate your hundred years, you publish a book (1) shown by the flight of a business jet, the Falcon 7X, a fighter, the Rafale, and the prototype of a UCAV, Neuron. What will be the picture of Dassault aircraft in a hundred years?

I do not know if Marcel Bloch would have imagined in 1916 our devices today. You ask the impossible. But I have two certainties: Dassault continue to make civil and military aircraft. In a hundred years we will still need to travel, while in the military field, the issue of sovereignty and it will always dominate air support to defend it. The aircraft of the future will he supersonic, hypersonic, space? We can all imagine. Dassault, our engineers work on spacecraft, such as on the Hermes shuttle in the 1980s or currently on Vehra as a space transportation system to launch low-orbit satellites. One can also build a supersonic Falcon, would take it that the regulatory framework allows it to fly.

The army resumed flight tests of UCAV Neuron. Prefigures he replacing the Rafale?

This is a technology demonstrator, which test test, demonstrated both qualities: stealth and the remote control. Around the world, there is a trend towards automation of the battlefield. We try to expose fewer soldiers, pilots, while the air defense systems, such as S300 and S400 Russia, are increasingly accessible to all States. A UCAV, relatively invisible to radar, flying at low altitude and that does not expose the life of the driver, offers a guarantee to continue to penetrate a number of enemy defenses. Based on the proven technology of the Neuron, we will now launch an operational demonstrator in the Lancaster House Treaty between France and Britain. A budget of EUR 2 billion has been set.

Are we behind the Americans for stealth aircraft?

No, i dont think so. Neuron has completed its specification for 400 million euros, where Americans spent ten times more. Outstanding performance. As is also the Rafale, which was developed for 7 to 8 billion when the F35 is still not operational despite astronomical spending.

The future UCAV-Will Franco-British or European?

I think other countries will join the program. Germany the she want? For now, it gives priority to the development of a surveillance drone. Beyond collaboration with London, combat aircraft of the future will be European if the Europeans agree on a common business need. We must learn from fifteen years of failure in European defense. No common strategic need, there can be no program defined in Brussels. Needless to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Isn't the Rafale, the last Franco-French project?

Not necessarily. Let's stop this fantasy: Dassault and France don't have developed the Rafale against all other countries. Basically, there are real differences in operational requirements. For example, a nuclear deterrence, others not. In defense, the "European preference" is a concept no effect. Many countries prefer to buy American, even though it does not give them access to the source code. Look at Denmark which has decided to buy F35. If the Danes prefer to buy American and create jobs in the United States, that is their choice. Dassault will not try to dissuade them. At the tender launched by the Netherlands in the 2000s, we could give our Rafales, it would not have changed at the will of the Dutch government to equip US hunters to get sheltered from the American umbrella, NATO.

You were the boss of the aircraft that never sells. Since the Rafale is exported, what change do you see?

The profile of the winner is necessarily easier to wear than the "loser", but with the Rafale, we mostly avoided something fundamental: it prevented a complete American domination. It is a national pride to have succeeded a plane that fulfills its missions, as demonstrated today in the Middle East, and which is exported.

Will you eventually close the sale in India?

We are ready to enter at any time the ball is in the camp of the Indian government. India explains that it lacks in years of combat aircraft, all requirements are met and we greatly lowered the price. As for the bank guarantee issues raised by the Indian press, I do not understand. There is no need of bank guarantee, since there is a state guarantee. With India, it is an intergovernmental agreement, state to state, which means that France agrees that industrial deliver in due time.

Is it not legitimate that India fears to ally with a very medium power like France?

In the past, whenever India has come into conflict, she used French aircraft: the Mirage from Dassault. India therefore knows that it can count on France and Dassault. As yet just proved it by honoring time and time a recent 2000 Mirages modernization contract.

Is the business easier in business aviation?

The aviation business is a good barometer of the global economy and this year will be difficult. In a climate of uncertainty, the supply of used jets is very strong and prices fall. The price gap is widening with the new, pushing candidates to buy to offset their investments in the new. However, in the medium term, I have no doubt of its potential for development, because in an economy increasingly globalized, it is the most efficient means of transport.
 
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Will you eventually close the sale in India?

We are ready to enter at any time the ball is in the camp of the Indian government. India explains that it lacks in years of combat aircraft, all requirements are met and we greatly lowered the price. As for the bank guarantee issues raised by the Indian press, I do not understand. There is no need of bank guarantee, since there is a state guarantee. With India, it is an intergovernmental agreement, state to state, which means that France agrees that industrial deliver in due time.

Is it not legitimate that India fears to ally with a very medium power like France?

In the past, whenever India has come into conflict, she used French aircraft: the Mirage from Dassault. India therefore knows that it can count on France and Dassault. As yet just proved it by honoring time and time a recent 2000 Mirages modernization contract.
.
now that explains all rafale deal is on :yahoo::cheers::dance3:
 
France Greatly Lowered Rafale Price For lndia: Dassault CEO

01:56 PM, May 31, 2016

dassault__1464695927.jpg

Dassault CEO Eric Trappier along with French President Francois Hollande with Rafale fighter in the backdrop (File photo)
- A +
France has “greatly” lowered the price of the Rafale fighter jet for India and all requirements (concerning technical, financial and offsets) have been met, CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier said today.

In an interview to French publication Les Echos, Trappier said that we (meaning the French government which is negotiating the government-to-government deal) are ready to enter at any time (to sign the contract) since the ball in the camp of the Indian government.

He asserted that there is no need for a bank guarantee in the Rafale deal for India since there is a state guarantee. “With India, it is an inter-governmental agreement, state to state, which means that France agrees industrial deliveries in due time.”

In reply to a question, he said that the negotiations were started as India needed aircraft urgently. In the past, whenever India has entered into a into conflict, she has used French aircraft: namely the Mirage from Dassault. India therefore knows that it can count on France and Dassault. And most recently, it has entered into a contract with Dassault for the modernization of the Mirage aircraft.

Eric Trappier’s statement seems to indicate that the negotiation have come to a standstill and that France has made its final offer after lowering the price in relation to the price it has sold in the international market
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16205/France_Greatly_Lowered_Rafale_Price_For_lndia__Dassault_CEO

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http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ETTWMain
 
India will get 36 Rafale fighters only by 2023
Published May 27, 2016
SOURCE: YAHOO
With the French Defence Minister having made his government’s best offer, price negotiations with France for 36 Rafale fighters are in their end stages. Earlier this month, the Chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, flew in India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. This was meant to showcase the IAF’s faith in the fighter produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is yet to earn the Final Operational Clearance (FOC). An order for 40 Tejases has been placed by the IAF and the first three fighters are planned to be inducted this year. But the signing of the Rafale deal and induction of Tejas fighters will not reverse the poor state of the IAF, which has been public knowledge for a few years now. To counter a “two-front collusive threat”, the IAF wants 45 fighter squadrons but has been sanctioned 42 by the government. In March, the Vice Chief of the IAF lamented that they had only 33 squadrons, which were inadequate to fulfill their designated role. The number of fighter squadrons will dwindle further as 3 squadrons of MiG-21M retire in 2018, along with the 2 squadrons of MiG-27 UPG. The 6 squadrons of MiG-21 Bison will be out of service by 2022. Of the current fleet, the legacy fighters — 6 squadrons of the Jaguar, 3 of the Mirage-2000 and three of MiG-29 — will last in service till 2030. How does the IAF plan to make up for the existing shortfall and the forthcoming reductions? First up is the Tejas. An order for 40 aircraft has been placed with HAL, 20 of which are projected to be in service by mid-2018. By mid-2020, the full complement will be in service and, by then, a HAL official said, possibly more in hope than out of conviction, “the FOC will have come”. With Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar throwing his weight behind the Tejas, Ministry sources have confirmed that an order for 80 Tejas-Mk1A — an improved version of the aircraft — will be placed with HAL. The prototype of Tejas-Mk1A will be ready by 2018, and HAL hopes to have the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) by 2020. It can then be put into production on the Tejas assembly line, which would be free. The workhorse of the IAF will, however, continue to be the Russian Sukhoi MKI. The HAL plant at Nashik produces 12 Sukhois every year, and the IAF expects to have its full complement of 272 Sukhois by 2020. As Parrikar informed Parliament, the serviceability state of Sukhois in service is a worrying 53%. Assuming the Rafale deal is signed shortly, the 36 fighters will be with the IAF only by 2023. Having only 36 fighters of one type makes little sense logistically or operationally. There was talk of a follow-up deal for more Rafales which could be assembled in India, but this is by no means a certainty. If — and this is a big if — all goes to plan, the IAF will be able to maintain its current squadron levels. To make up for the shortfall, Parrikar has indicated another imported fighter will be needed. Three are believed to be in contention: US F-16 and F-18, and the Swedish Gripen. Lockheed Martin has proposed shifting the F-16 assembly line to India but it is a previous generation fighter. The F-18 proposal doesn’t include an assembly line in India, and the IAF is not too enamoured of it. Sweden has made the right noises about transfer of technology and production of Gripen under ‘Make in India’; a formal proposal is expected next month. Meanwhile, the Russians have been pushing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which was supposed to be jointly developed by Russia and India. India’s lack of interest was apparent from its failure to pay as per schedule. Russia has already developed the fighter with stealth capabilities, and wants India to pay $ 3.7 billion so that HAL can start producing them in India after its Sukhoi assembly line at Nashik is free. The FGFA, however, is needed to replace the legacy fighters which will be in service till 2030. By then, should the Defence Ministry commit strongly to the project, the Aeronautical Development Agency’s (ADA’s) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) could be poised to enter service. The project needs funding commitment from the government next year, and it hopes to fly the first aircraft in eight years. Another four years will be needed for the IOC. But all this is still in the planning stage. The reality is that the Rafale deal is yet to be signed while the Tejas-Mk1A is still on paper. The rest, from AMCA to FGFA to another foreign fighter, are also in the realm of the future. The IAF, meanwhile, remains at dangerously low squadron strength, with no clarity about its future. Posted in India

..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/india-will-get-36-rafale-fighters-2023/ .
100% BS. If/when India signs the 36 G-G deal in the next few months/weeks the first bird will touch down in 2018 and all 36 will be delivered by mid 2020. 2023 is an utterly absurd timeline for so few fighters especially with Dassualt having expanded production to cater for more export orders.

i have confidence in our defense ministers :d
He is playing some weird games though and whilst I don't question his competence I do question his motives.
 
10th June next DAC. Strategic partnership model will be further streamlined with DPP 2016 loose ends being tied up.

Committed set up like these below will also start functioning

timthumb.jpg


The true benefits of the DPP will take time but this is what is being explained to le Drian whom MP is meeting soon.

All this paving way for the MII part of the deal.

F21 HWT is again a front runner. G2G expected with MII part as requested by India.. Need for Arihant class is top priority. varunastra is getting some help from this deal. Deal discussion underway.

Oh btw there is a unofficially fact finding on a newsprint article which mentioned on guarantee thing and which was picked up by Sputnik. Also Russian side is offering a new latest variant of R73 which is now no more favoured by IAF as they like Python Derby combo. It seems the newspaper article sponsorship is known to DM who has noted and swiftly asked the progress of FGFA program to understand whats the real status of the program. Russian side is apprehensive that Rafale MII will overshadow FGFA program if the Russian side is not able to deliver the fighter on time and as per Indian sides expectation. It is expected that with MP asking for progress report of FGFA new articles and goodies will be on offer soon. Especially under S400 where its 5 systems at present with 2 battalions per system expected to be further upgraded and with Pantsirs/Tor combo plus S500 certain HTK sections.

Also recently the Gripen E articles by sponsored journalist to Saab factory visit based articles are blanked out from any opinion making or influencing decision making episodes.

Next in line is the exclusive club access. In case US is able to get us the access to 4 clubs especially the two important ones, India will reciprocate with MII plan for a FXX fighter and agree to buy a considerable quantity.

Buzz is in corridor of powers suggest LM is showcasing less than twice the price of LCA Mk1A for their flagship project in mid 202Xs.

Lots of action expected in coming days..
 

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