Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

https://twitter.com/x/status/735151769962045440

In an interview yesterday.

Link to his interview. youtu.be/uXjFYIJ3ZXw

The problem is DM MP has been advised by a new good friend from West that the whole deal should be at max $7.5Bn . This has prompted MP to again try and see what can be cut down.

Now unfortunately the figure of $7.5Bn is for 36 outright purchases of limited systems via FMS route being offered by our new West friend for a twin engine plane as a quick solution.. The rest of secondary package plus lifetime costs is much higher. DM MP is aware of that fact and hence has not given the approval to that offer of a quick FMS deal for 'new non NATO' ally.

But MP is more or less convinced that there is a scope of further price reduction with dilution of Indian side requirements. He had put that remark to NaMo and AJ. Unfortunately what more can be diluted is a good guess.. The way it looks if a base reduces will do that trick and reduce the price by 1.1-1.2 Bn euro from 7.8Bn Euro and make it 6.7Bn Euro or around 7.5Bn USD.

Now challenge is the fact that it was almost certain that two Rafale bases were in East and North West India. The East base is planned to be supplemented with additional squadron over time and will become a more regional hub and spoke model deployment.
The NW base also is planned in a manner that it's range from inside India to border will be less than 800-1000 km and yet it wud be able to cover a complete part of the hostile environment without much AAR needs.

Now suddenly such a reduction of 1 base would need one side of planning to be delayed and second would be that the security aspect is "outsourced" to have the assurance that delay is a risk mitigated situation.

Of course, there are talks of freeing up some assets and trying to improve availability both of which are not moving as DM MP was hoping and will require a more closer scrutiny.

In case a base is finally reduced, there is a very very strong chance that India has agreed with the so called West friend and got some assurance of providing assured security to their perceived threat index. If the base reduced js from West it's not a very good news for our West neighbours. If it's from East, then its even more complicated..

Let's hope some sanity prevails and PM NaMo gives some direction to all instead if these wring methodology of pursuing cost cutting on behest of such advices.

 

[enquencher]

This rafale deal is bringing lot of surprises with it.alcm baracudda n i think joint development of amca. Rafale gonna end 250 plus in numbers .rafale naval or help in lca naval is assured. Thnx for the info @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002

 

[BON PLAN]

The problem is DM MP has been advised by a new good friend from West that the whole deal should be at max $7.5Bn . This has prompted MP to again try and see what can be cut down.

Now unfortunately the figure of $7.5Bn is for 36 outright purchases of limited systems via FMS route being offered by our new West friend for a twin engine plane as a quick solution.. The rest of secondary package plus lifetime costs is much higher. DM MP is aware of that fact and hence has not given the approval to that offer of a quick FMS deal for 'new non NATO' ally.

But MP is more or less convinced that there is a scope of further price reduction with dilution of Indian side requirements. He had put that remark to NaMo and AJ. Unfortunately what more can be diluted is a good guess.. The way it looks if a base reduces will do that trick and reduce the price by 1.1-1.2 Bn euro from 7.8Bn Euro and make it 6.7Bn Euro or around 7.5Bn USD.

Now challenge is the fact that it was almost certain that two Rafale bases were in East and North West India. The East base is planned to be supplemented with additional squadron over time and will become a more regional hub and spoke model deployment.
The NW base also is planned in a manner that it's range from inside India to border will be less than 800-1000 km and yet it wud be able to cover a complete part of the hostile environment without much AAR needs.

Now suddenly such a reduction of 1 base would need one side of planning to be delayed and second would be that the security aspect is "outsourced" to have the assurance that delay is a risk mitigated situation.

Of course, there are talks of freeing up some assets and trying to improve availability both of which are not moving as DM MP was hoping and will require a more closer scrutiny.

In case a base is finally reduced, there is a very very strong chance that India has agreed with the so called West friend and got some assurance of providing assured security to their perceived threat index. If the base reduced js from West it's not a very good news for our West neighbours. If it's from East, then its even more complicated..

Let's hope some sanity prevails and PM NaMo gives some direction to all instead if these wring methodology of pursuing cost cutting on behest of such advices.

Always a very good source you seem to be !

 

[sathya]

The problem is DM MP has been advised by a new good friend from West that the whole deal should be at max $7.5Bn . This has prompted MP to again try and see what can be cut down.

Now unfortunately the figure of $7.5Bn is for 36 outright purchases of limited systems via FMS route being offered by our new West friend for a twin engine plane as a quick solution.. The rest of secondary package plus lifetime costs is much higher. DM MP is aware of that fact and hence has not given the approval to that offer of a quick FMS deal for 'new non NATO' ally.

But MP is more or less convinced that there is a scope of further price reduction with dilution of Indian side requirements. He had put that remark to NaMo and AJ. Unfortunately what more can be diluted is a good guess.. The way it looks if a base reduces will do that trick and reduce the price by 1.1-1.2 Bn euro from 7.8Bn Euro and make it 6.7Bn Euro or around 7.5Bn USD.

Now challenge is the fact that it was almost certain that two Rafale bases were in East and North West India. The East base is planned to be supplemented with additional squadron over time and will become a more regional hub and spoke model deployment.
The NW base also is planned in a manner that it's range from inside India to border will be less than 800-1000 km and yet it wud be able to cover a complete part of the hostile environment without much AAR needs.

Now suddenly such a reduction of 1 base would need one side of planning to be delayed and second would be that the security aspect is "outsourced" to have the assurance that delay is a risk mitigated situation.

Of course, there are talks of freeing up some assets and trying to improve availability both of which are not moving as DM MP was hoping and will require a more closer scrutiny.

In case a base is finally reduced, there is a very very strong chance that India has agreed with the so called West friend and got some assurance of providing assured security to their perceived threat index. If the base reduced js from West it's not a very good news for our West neighbours. If it's from East, then its even more complicated..

Let's hope some sanity prevails and PM NaMo gives some direction to all instead if these wring methodology of pursuing cost cutting on behest of such advices.

Basic question from me,

When MII rafale happens , we are going to have many bases for Rafale, are we going to pay France for each base, or we ll do it on our own?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Basic question from me,

When MII rafale happens , we are going to have many bases for Rafale, are we going to pay France for each base, or we ll do it on our own?

For example the question could be: do you want one or two Rafale simulation center?

In the air-to-surface configuration, the Rafale Marine F2, the naval version, flies at a sea-skimming altitude of 350 feet at Mach 0.95. Its electronic countermeasures are activated to escape detection and lock-on by enemy ship radar. Very quickly, several warships can be seen, including a frigate and several support vessels. On its approach axis, the fighter, just a few nautical miles from the warships, engages fast climbing boosted by its afterburner, to better identify the target and engage it. The Rafale then dives onto its target, a more vulnerable supply ship, to begin its low altitude attack. It instantly inflicts severe damage to the vessel. After pulling out and climbing sharply, a column of smoke rises from the ship, confirmation of a violent fire! However, the Rafale is not completely out of harm's way because at the same time, it becomes itself the target of a missile fired from the warship! The pilot has nothing to worry about, however, since the Spectra active protection on the Rafale enters into operation and the hostile missile is avoided by a chaff release from the fighter. At the same time, at Saint-Dizier, two single-seater Rafale aircraft and a French Air Force two-seater take off on a wingtip to wingtip patrol with their virtual Rafale wingers and join the COMAO (COMposite Air Operation) on a GCA pattern. This maneuver, like the overall mission, was displayed to the pilots shortly before the session began at the "Blue Team" briefing station. In all, the COMAO is made up of 30 virtual aircraft, mainly fighters, dealing with the airborne threats of the Red Team (SWEEP). Their behavior was set by the instructors before the real-time exercise began. These are virtual Mirage 2000-5 aircraft chosen for this task by the Mission Commander.

http://www.sogitec.com/pdf/INTER24A/INTER24A.pdf

 

[sathya]

Now I understand what parikrama meant by west may have chance..

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale is a complex aircraft able to fullfil all kind of mission so it's a relatively complex aircraft to master. One flight hour in the Rafale Simulation Center (RSC) cost between 100 and 200 € during which the user have unlimited access to munitions. For real flight the cost is $ 10000 for one flight hour without the use of munitions. in France we consider that we need between 230 and 250 hour of flight by year to master Rafale but we only want to spend 180 flight hour for each pilot. The difference is done on RSC.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Fund Shortage and Depreciating Rupee Hit Key IAF Programs

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...eciating-rupee-hit-key-iaf-programs/84899486/

 

[W@rwolf]

Rafale Deal By June, Says India’s Defence Minister

This could finally be it. India’s chronically delayed effort to contract for new medium fighter jets could finally be at an end. While France’s monumental four-year endeavour to get India to sign up for Rafale jets has fluttered endlessly, India’s defence minister has for the first time provided a specific timeframe for contract signatute: next month! In interviews he gave out today, including this one to the Press Trust of India, Minister Manohar Parrikar has been quoted as saying, “There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase.” In the muddle that is India’s campaign for new jets, little scraps of explicit guidance mean a lot. Parrikar, whose party, the BJP, recently faux pa’d by claiming that a cheaper Rafale deal was a government achievement, has also indicated that he will “see to it” that the deal is done in June.

And that’s precisely where negotiations have been slowed: on final price negotiations. Earlier this month, it was reported that France had put on the table its final ‘take it or leave it’ deal: a $7.25 billion price tag for the 36 flyaway Rafale fighters, with a separately negotiated weapons contract. It’s important that Minister Parrikar has chosen his government’s two-year anniversary — a time when Ministers are usually deployed to provide specific guidance and trumpet achievements — to provide the first explicit time frame for a contract on what has been one of India’s most elusive modernisation efforts (India’s nearly two decade campaign to induct jet trainers still holds that record).

Source - http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/05/rafale-deal-by-june-says-indias-defence-minister.html

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It's what I have said before.. The file is with CCS and all this drama and selective quotes leaks everything is for domestic audience consumption and portraying MP as the best negotiator for India and strengthening his position for future PM post.

 

[enquencher]

Now I understand what parikrama meant by west may have chance..

Who is the one from west...i din get?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Rafale Deal By June, Says India’s Defence Minister

This could finally be it. India’s chronically delayed effort to contract for new medium fighter jets could finally be at an end. While France’s monumental four-year endeavour to get India to sign up for Rafale jets has fluttered endlessly, India’s defence minister has for the first time provided a specific timeframe for contract signatute: next month! In interviews he gave out today, including this one to the Press Trust of India, Minister Manohar Parrikar has been quoted as saying, “There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase.” In the muddle that is India’s campaign for new jets, little scraps of explicit guidance mean a lot. Parrikar, whose party, the BJP, recently faux pa’d by claiming that a cheaper Rafale deal was a government achievement, has also indicated that he will “see to it” that the deal is done in June.

And that’s precisely where negotiations have been slowed: on final price negotiations. Earlier this month, it was reported that France had put on the table its final ‘take it or leave it’ deal: a $7.25 billion price tag for the 36 flyaway Rafale fighters, with a separately negotiated weapons contract. It’s important that Minister Parrikar has chosen his government’s two-year anniversary — a time when Ministers are usually deployed to provide specific guidance and trumpet achievements — to provide the first explicit time frame for a contract on what has been one of India’s most elusive modernisation efforts (India’s nearly two decade campaign to induct jet trainers still holds that record).

Source - http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/05/rafale-deal-by-june-says-indias-defence-minister.html

MAY GOD BLESS YOU -- for this beautiful news

 

[SR-91]

Hello my good friend,
First part, I cannot disclose bcz it's something with which I will be traced easily..

I can discuss the options which includes

1. shifting FM to handle the defense portfolio
2. Raising a recently elected RS member to DM level.
3. Raising the recently elected RS member to some other portfolio and a portfolio reshuffle based on successful track record of some ministers. This list includes good name like prabhu - railways and Gadkari - transport overall, power minister piyush goyal etc
4. Some junior ministers as well as other well know good man managers are also considered.
5. Internally Rao Inderjith Singh is also considered but his experience at national level is limited but that gentleman knows what is what as of now.
6. VK Singh name is doing rounds but that could be a mismatch owing to the fact that focus is improving air and naval power and realigning army with far more offensive firepower at individual level and deploying the reserve units to other forces to increase efficiency.
7. Some folks also wants to wait for July when 50+ new RS member are coming.. So there is a chance someone may handle it for sometime or 2-3 months as a caretaker DM.

So it's a bit of dicey proposition. S.Swamy name is gaining support but idea of him as DM does nt cut much ice with me as perhaps his one point agenda against Congress family will not be in sync with this role..

If you ask my personal opinion I had backed 3 guys including Inderjith singh but i had advised and cautioned against moving MP back to Goa. If BJP is clearly inclined as building MP up as a successor to NaMo based on performance, responsibility and mass appeal, then moving him back to Goa unit will backfire massively.

PM NaMo will fight max upto 2024 where in 2023 he will formally announce his successor name in public and build a image plus consensus. Thus MP moving back will backfire and open gates for other folks who may have mass appeal but also carry certain baggaes of controversies.

About second part, the NDA gov has initiated a new deal under G2G and the new Make in India part. The scope of the earlier investigation is the MMRCA deal. I had always questioned them on the deal structure and what were the flaws that for Rs 42000 crs 126 jets flyaway could nt be concluded.. What was the issue right from tender initiation to evaluation to finally signing bcz to me professionally it looked a big gestation period for absolutely NO result to carry forward. The whole tender and the structuring was impractical to begin with and for some good time I knew it won't be concluded. This whole Angle of motive of why it was done and for what needs to be understood.. Of course I speak apolitically. But knowing government and how politics is played , this would be again a mud slinging contest.

But the new Rafale deal of 36 + tranche 1 90 followed by 4 more tranches for IAF and IN will be done. That deal is far far strategic.. Barracuda tech, tech to AMCA, tech to LCA, tech to AURA project, tech of miniaturizing further the brahmos to a new Air launched variant which is less than 800-900 KGS but capable of carrying a 270 kg warhead for 150-200KT capability and a air launched range of 600km (ASMP type), cooperation and tech to a new generation of submarines -SSKs which are similar sized like the SSNs but almost double the size of scorpenes carrying a large cache of VLS and Torpedo tube launch missiles to provide ambiguity option for strike packages from deterrant perspective to space based collaborations. The field is too wide..

Interestingly all this was not done when original MMRCA made it clear much before the public announcement of France winning the deal. So everything needs to be understood of why some things were either overlooked or deliberately kept out..

The decisions are still not made for MP. Unless they find a credible replacement and from a long term perspective know that decision won't backfire. The same is for Rafales, it's way too much for any country including USA to match if they want to outsmart the French side.

It's been a while @PARIKRAMA, how u been?
Is MP really the successor for Modi? That shocked me, I thought either Amit Shah or Arun Jaitley would make the list first. But moreover he'd be there for atleast 3 terms. I haven't been following, my bad brother.

On a separate note, with the Rafale deal are we really going to get high tech for other projects too. Is that part of the deal? Those tech in bold parts are just mind-blowing to get with this deal.

 

[sathya]

It's what I have said before.. The file is with CCS and all this drama and selective quotes leaks everything is for domestic audience consumption and portraying MP as the best negotiator for India and strengthening his position for future PM post.

What's your take on Parrikar being the next PM ?
I definitely like his DM role..

How was his CM role in Goa ? Same as DM or different ?
Is he a holistic PM candidate ?

----------------------------

Want to know how much of "other help" we ll get in 36+ 18 Rafales deal ?
Even before MII ?

Who is the one from west...i din get?

It's USA , offer is about F18 ..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It's been a while @PARIKRAMA, how u been?
Is MP really the successor for Modi? That shocked me, I thought either Amit Shah or Arun Jaitley would make the list first. But moreover he'd be there for atleast 3 terms. I haven't been following, my bad brother.

On a separate note, with the Rafale deal are we really going to get high tech for other projects too. Is that part of the deal? Those tech in bold parts are just mind-blowing to get with this deal.

That's what I have heard as he is being looked as successor to Modi.

Of course the deal has way too much strategic parlance.. There is far bigger things then I am quoting here as well as what will ever come out in public eyes..

For a small side hint look for F21 and F17 mod2 and beyond..that's what's being touted as Blackshark replacements for scorpene. And both these torpedoes is by DCNS. Don't be surprised if something from that deal comes to indigenous varunastra to further refine and upgrade it.. Since the need of such torpedoes is much bigger for SSKs and future other N fleet, there is something being worked out to keep things favourable to India in all situations. Further details at an appropriate time.

What's your take on Parrikar being the next PM ?
I definitely like his DM role..

How was his CM role in Goa ? Same as DM or different ?
Is he a holistic PM candidate ?

----------------------------

Want to know how much of "other help" we ll get in 36+ 18 Rafales deal ?
Even before MII ?



It's USA , offer is about F18 ..

MP needs to be rotated to not just defence but perhaps a more important portfolio like finance as well as a role in External affairs. That is my personal opinion. a PM is a plum posting where its a mix of many chairs and having defense ministry experience is a huge plus as it makes you work closely with our friends like France, Russia, japan and to some extent USA as well as take into consideration issues with China. Now a stint in Finance will enable him to understand our country economy better. Goa had just tourism, shipping and minerals.. Not much beyond it whereas the whole country has much diversified economic conditions and industry. Thus it's paramount that instead of being a lameduck PM who knows not much and depends on FM to do the real work , he needs to have a ground up experience. Also with his particular quotes and gaffes, it's important he knows diplomacy part better.. He has played the bad cop role convincingly now he needs a good cop role prt too..


As for Rafale. Barring limited things most if it has to be via MII as we won't be able to hide much if we do it on flyaway basis strategic help. Of course in something's it's a natural choice and progression like the case of DCNS getting us AIP or N tech help in ACC or in barracuda stealth tech part.. But most of the LCA and AMCA tech part comes only with MII work.