Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Naked jets are coming at a $220 million a piece. Their research cost is estimated to be between 50-80 million a bird.

Total cost of the program was valuated at $ 60 Billions. It is the development + procurement of 286 Planes and it was when € was valuated at 1.4 $. The real price is in € and is now valuated at $ 52 Billions (for 286 planes) and $ 46 Billions for 225 planes. It is 200 millions a piece with development. Recurring cost is $ 75 Millions. It was 85 Millions at the MMRCA time because € was at 1.4 $ but now € is at 1.14 $ and the real price is in €, so the price is less.

In the total program cost you have all the spare simulators and so on...

 

[WhyCry]

Total cost of the program was valuated at $ 60 Billions. It is the development + procurement of 286 Planes and it was when € was valuated at 1.4 $. The real price is in € and is now valuated at $ 52 Billions (for 286 planes) and $ 46 Billions for 225 planes. It is 200 millions a piece with development. Recurring cost is $ 75 Millions. It was 85 Millions at the MMRCA time because € was at 1.4 $ but now € is at 1.14 $ and the real price is in €, so the price is less.

In the total program cost you have all the spare simulators and so on...

Thanks for confirming. I was head over heels when months ago here it was discussion of 80 million a piece. I knew it could not be because of the high development cost. They are only calculating the flyaway cost.

Another observation is that they are performing and charging updates per customer as separate modification rather than collective upgrade. Just another question would be, Are there royalties involved?

 

[Abingdonboy]

85-90 Million a piece.

That's really very agreeable for a flyaway cost. With greater orders comes greater Economies of Scale and thus a reduction of this figure and if they are built in India the cost will come down even more.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Thanks for confirming. I was head over heels when months ago here it was discussion of 80 million a piece. I knew it could not be because of the high development cost. They are only calculating the flyaway cost.

Another observation is that they are performing and charging updates per customer as separate modification rather than collective upgrade. Just another question would be, Are there royalties involved?

There is a path for French configuration evolution. If you agree with it it's collective, but if you want something special... Adaptation of Russian weapons will be for India only for the moment.

 

[WhyCry]

That's really very agreeable for a flyaway cost. With greater orders comes greater Economies of Scale and thus a reduction of this figure and if they are built in India the cost will come down even more.

I might not agree with you. India has multiple programs to design and build combat platforms right from LCA MK1A, MKII, AMCA, LCH, Rudra etc. Procuring these Indian platforms will be way cheaper than rafale in this case. Well 36 is a modest number but 126 earlier envisioned would be way higher than anticipated.

My criticism not comes from capabilities of rafale but the cost of it. It will result in making one or more projects to go defunct. According to me India can either fund PAK-FA or rafale even in its current state. I know a wave of criticism will come for me mentioning this as LCA is been in progress for 30 years and just 2 inducted yet. Moreover the IAF is not too pleased with the same. They want the MK2. But we haven't pumped money into the program to be a success. Its been running as a show of symbolism. It is until now that I have most faith to push the same under Mr. Modi's command. We are not going to have it by 2018. They won't be proven either but will mature with time. This will also leave a big gap in our fiscal deficit. Also for the next 2 years, OROP will dent the bill.

Secondly, the experience running the indigenous program will have a great boost for the future aircraft if not the ones now. with rafale will be just the users just as for SU-30 MKI. Oh we at-least make them.

Thirdly, India's power projection will increase considerably if India is an exporter of defense items especially Combat aircraft.

Fourth, The golden age of defense in India under MII.

Fifth, intrinsic but ultimate goal of being the permanent membership of Security council will only be achieved by being non-aligned and powerful domestically and internationally.

I wish we look at the bigger picture than just looking for a decade at maximum. We are here as a nation the hard way but the correct way just need to do the same.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I might not agree with you. India has multiple programs to design and build combat platforms right from LCA MK1A, MKII, LCH, Rudra etc.

I don't know why you are linking entirely unrelated products with the purchase of the Rafale deal, they are NOT fighter jets and their progresshas absolutely zilch to do with the Rafales. The fighter stream is itself distinct from any other procurement and vis versa, this is not a zero sum game- all equipment is needed ESPECIALLY fighters with the IAF down to its lowest strength (and still tumbling) in a decade. This emergency will ony be addressed by multiple solutions, there is no one fit solution.

AMCA

The AMCA isn't going to be devloped overnight and the Rafale's induction will be a huge boost to the AMCA, without the Rafale's induction I fear the AMCA will be another highly delayed project.

The Rafale is a generation ahead of any plane in IAF service as of now in many aspects.

Procuring these Indian platforms will be way cheaper than rafale in this case. Well 36 is a modest number but 126 earlier envisioned would be way higher than anticipated.

There is no case to buy just 36 Rafales, if you are going to buy a new jet you need to buy 100+ or not bother. The IAF is the 4th largest AF in the world, inducting 36 jets would be detrimental to its overall operational capabilties and would cause enourmous wasteful duplication of services.

My criticism not comes from capabilities of rafale but the cost of it.

And how much do you think the MKI is costing the iAF? When LCCs are compared the Rafale HUMILIATES the MKI.

They want the MK2. But we haven't pumped money into the program to be a success. Its been running as a show of symbolism. It is until now that I have most faith to push the same under Mr. Modi's command. We are not going to have it by 2018. They won't be proven either but will mature with time. This will also leave a big gap in our fiscal deficit. Also for the next 2 years, OROP will dent the bill.

Money is not an issue between 2014 and 2022 the Indian Military has >$300BN to spend on modernisation and the Rafales will be paid for over the span of >10 years. By the time the IAF finishes paying for their Rafales India will be the 3rd largest economy on the planet with an annual defence budget of >$170BN USD.

Furthermore 50% of the value of the deal will be ploughed back into India in offsets and the number of jobs created will be immense. The Rafale deal will effectively pay for itself in the long term.

Fifth, intrinsic but ultimate goal of being the permanent membership of Security council will only be achieved by being non-aligned and powerful domestically and internationally.

The French offer India just that.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Dassault Aviation presents its aircraft in virtual reality on Oculus Rift: "Immersive Dassault Aviation"

The "Immersive Dassault Aviation" application was revealed for the first time at last summer's air shows, the Paris Air Show in particular. Its goal is to present the company's aircraft and to share its passion for aeronautics. It can now be downloaded from www.dassault-aviation.com.

The "Immersive Dassault Aviation" application was conceived and designed by the E-Communication team at Dassault Aviation and by the Modedemploi SOFTEAM Digital agency and places the player at the controls of the Rafale, flying over the majestic peaks of the Mont-Blanc range. The 360* 3D immersion in the midst of the aircraft is a quite stunning experience...

3 play modes are proposed:

• Patrol flight: players must maintain their position with the Rafale, in relation to the nEUROn and the Falcon 7X, anticipating any changes in heading and formation.
  
• Target course: the aim of this mode is to fly the Rafale through the center of virtual targets, following the best possible flight path.
  
• Autopilot: this mode is a means of discovering the characteristics of the Rafale, Falcon 7X and nEUROn, while admiring their formation flight over Mont-Blanc, using the 360* display capability of the Oculus headset.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault-aviation-presents-aircraft-virtual-103749708.html

 

[Abingdonboy]

"The sanctioned strength of fighter squadrons is 42, but 100 percent is never reached. We have 34 squadrons at present. In next three to four years, four to five squadrons of Tejas will be added; a few more squadrons of Sukhoi will also come. By then two squadrons of Rafale jets will also come," Parrikar said.


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"By the end of this year, a decision will be taken on which fighter aircraft will be made in India. We have not decided yet whether we will make the F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale or Griffin."

http://www.firstpost.com/india/first-sqaudron-tejas-light-combat-aircraft-fighter-jet-2790964.html


The 36 (/54) off the shelf Rafales here are being spoken of as guarenteed and being factored into the IAF's 2020 force levels already . The logical extension of this would be to opt for the Rafale as the Made in India fighter also (and Dassualt are so far the ONLY OEM to have reached advanced stages of talks for the same) but it seems MP is still trying to play the "tough guy" and trying these childish pressure tactics on Dassualt.


+ I hope Parrikar was misquoted and he didn't actually call the "Gripen" the "Griffin" otherwise God help us all, this man actually weilds an enourmous amount of power.


++ Interesting that he mentions the Typhoon, that fighter has all but slipped off the radar (excuse the pun) with seemingly no renewed efforts by the Consortium for the IAF bid whilst SAAB, LM and Boeing are all pushing hard once again. I wonder what this signals, do the EFT Consortium know something the others don't? One would have thought the EFT stood the best chance should the Rafale not be selected considering the EFT was the only other fighter to have met the IAF's criteria whilst the other OEMs are simply offering fighters already rejected by the IAF.

++ Taking the DM at his word; 2 SQNs of Rafales (36 jets) within 3-4 years implies contract signing VERY soon.


@PARIKRAMA @ni8mare @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Stephen Cohen

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/

 

[randomradio]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/

This is the first time I have seen a Rafale article that is actually accurate.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/

We can trust this Government

The Prime Minister is personally following this up ; at the most we will see some more delays

But it will happen inevitably

Even today the defence minister has said " A few more weeks "

We are too far down the road to turn back now

This is the first time I have seen a Rafale article that is actually accurate.

Mate ; what have you heard and is this Smita Nagaraj an obstacle

Good that she has been shown the door

 

[randomradio]

We can trust this Government

The Prime Minister is personally following this up ; at the most we will see some more delays

But it will happen inevitably

Even today the defence minister has said " A few more weeks "

We are too far down the road to turn back now

The bureaucrats are now afraid because of the Agusta scandal. Dumbass UPA. They don't want to be pulled up in the future since the Rafale tender became Rafale GTG even though it is obviously clear of taint.

 

[Nimitam]

The bureaucrats are now afraid because of the Agusta scandal. Dumbass UPA. They don't want to be pulled up in the future since the Rafale tender became Rafale GTG even though it is obviously clear of taint.

Only the guilty show fear, the honest need not worry if the political leadership is with them.

 

[randomradio]

Only the guilty show fear, the honest need not worry if the political leadership is with them.

They will make scapegoats of the innocent. There is no justice in politics.

If I, as a bureaucrat, listens to a BJP leader and signs during times of trouble, no matter how honest I am the next UPA govt will pull me up for corruption. That's guaranteed. So it has nothing to do with being honest or not. It's politics. Nice guys finish last.

 

[Nimitam]

They will make scapegoats of the innocent. There is no justice in politics.

If I, as a bureaucrat, listens to a BJP leader and signs during times of trouble, no matter how honest I am the next UPA govt will pull me up for corruption. That's guaranteed. So it has nothing to do with being honest or not. It's politics. Nice guys finish last.

This is a common myth propagated by the guilty to cover up their sins.

They can be made scapegoats ONLY if they have NOT followed the Law and procedure.

IT has nothing to do with politics. Even in our social life, corporate life ect. the guilty and the lazy do not do anything for the fear of making mistakes. It is a sign of cowardice and not honesty or caution.

The bureaucrat do not have to "LISTEN" to the BJP leader, he can demand a WRITTEN request by the BJP leader. A document that will establish his innocence IF every there is a witch hunt.

However if witch hunt by congress is the objective then their guilt and innocence will not matter. They will be harassed and prosecuted irrespective of their stand. That is why its called a witch hunt (those hunted were not really witches). As demonstrated by the punishment of IPS officers in Guajrat and cases against Amit Shah and Narendra Modi.

Its not the last guys who finish last, its the fools and the lazy who finish last. Honest and hard working nice guys finish FIRST as again demonstrated by Modi who is PM and Amit Shah who is President of the worlds largest party.