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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Today is a good day my friend... As I have thought the deal to be around 9 billion USD, has come true. And tbh no matter how much you scold DM mp, I can say he cracked it albeit with other ones.

I hope we can soon close this may mentally torturing me thread and have some fresh air.

Enthusiasts have struggled for long being one of the oldest us. We can work something new out.

What say?
Might be a good idea once the contracts are signed to lock this thread and start a new thread "Indian Rafale deliveries and updTes thread" or something.


I agree it would be good to start afresh


You deserve all the plaudits you get brother.


+ @Dash I'm willing to cut the the DM some slack now, it seems there may have been a plan all along ;)

News in the last 3 days has been especially enlightening- 25 LCA/year is the target (with private player participation) so 250-300 LCA are assured along with 300+ MKI and 200+ Rafales and at some point the FGFA and AMCA will follow. In short, it has been assured that IAF will be the air power in Asia.[/QUOTE]

Come back and ping me bro
 
According to prasun!! 44 rafale will be licence-assembled in the second order tranche that will be placed next year. There will be similar other successive tranches in the years to come. Offset package will likely involve buy-back provisions that will enable Indian vendors to become members of the global supplier chains of various French OEMs
 
According to prasun!! 44 rafale will be licence-assembled in the second order tranche that will be placed next year. There will be similar other successive tranches in the years to come. Offset package will likely involve buy-back provisions that will enable Indian vendors to become members of the global supplier chains of various French OEMs

So in total 36+18 +90+44 =188. ?
18 & 44 for navy and 36 &90 for airforce ..
Licence assembled @ tranche 2 ? When are we going to make from raw material stage ?
 
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36 rafale now plus 18 followup clause.
Offsets will be for rafale n engines. Which will help in acma..m sure acma will be with french help.rafale will be then produced/assembled /cobuilt. Rafale coming for navy also along with naval lca. Army and naval rafale total will be around 250+. Coz nething less than that does not justify offsets for dassault.
 
I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?

France to investb30% back in India . And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .
Sure not. You will have AESA radar, more powerfull engine (I think), Meteor, SCALP and AASM capacity (even if not ordered immediatly), Spectra.... It will be AT LEAST as powerfull as France ones.

Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?

Israeli GaN radars ?

It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..

We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..

Sub help. 8-)
AMCA help 8-)
Tejas help ? :what:

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The RBE2 radar (AESA or PESA) and OSF are close integrated. No OSF with another radar ! and Radar and OSF and Spectra are used together through sensor fusion to give the best situation to pilot. Remove one and you loose part of that.
So I think it's a false news.
 
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Are you effing kidding me????? I would any day take zero Rafales for a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood.

The resources we spend on defence is out of necessity without the need they provide marginal utility.

I too would take a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood any day. But my concern is during peaceful times, Indian establishment becomes lethargic in defence matters. Pakistan and China are forcing India to become a strong military power. In this world Hard Power is always respected and now we have a reason to acquire it. Hope you see my point.
 
@PARIKRAMA So overall do you think this is a good deal from India's point of view and also do you see this as the final major foreign fighter acquisition, i.e everything now will be desi maal.....
 
@PARIKRAMA So overall do you think this is a good deal from India's point of view and also do you see this as the final major foreign fighter acquisition, i.e everything now will be desi maal.....

My heart says this should be one of the final foreign acquisitions. But mind and logic differs..

The target for any jet with our indigenous design to even a foreign design needs to be understood from 2 points
  1. localisation aspect
  2. in terms of economic value
When i say localisation aspect, take for example an MKI.. its produced in India from raw materials and some limited things from Russian imports. But critically even though we have been producing a product as per a template, effectively we have not been able to replicate a similar effort for any other home made jet. I am not saying about reverse engineering or cloning or infringing IPRs but rather that the know how learned from such processes which we have been doing for a decade plus is of practically no use for us.

In terms of economic value, take the example of our own LCA. I for one would always advocate the LCA to be minimum 300+ jets. But critically, the economic value of what we are able to make locally and what we are dependent on abroad makes it a difficult choice unless we bridge this gap. if suppose we are able reach a stage where we make our own parts of economic value of closer to 80% and above, we can then reach a stage where we could slowly say only indigenous planes and no foreign acquisition.

Critically as of today - Engines, Radar, Missiles all have not reached a stage that we can deploy in frontline fighters. Astra should come soon but thats a BVR and we dont have our own WVR missile. ARM will be tested in coming times. Radar is still some time away and so the engine. i named just 3 and there are many more items running in 100s which we are yet not able to manufacture in India but these 3 have good economic value.

Thus, the MII is a golden chance to correct such a thing. I hope that in 2 decades, we would see our MIC to be effective in the component manufacturing to sub assembly to assembly level. The need is to raise the skill levels of the people in MIC and capability to go beyond the templated product and doing the routine job.

Rafale deal will be good if and only if we make sure we dont repeat the story of MKI. i am not just looking at technology absorption part but as i said i want to increase the skill level and capability level of our MIC particularly the pvt sector.

only time will say.. critically if i consider just FGFA, i dont think we would need any more foreign planes.

So add 15 years of Rafale line + 10 years of fgfa line and if result is remaining at same level of MIC capability and skill then even GOD cant help India.
 
Are you effing kidding me????? I would any day take zero Rafales for a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood.

The resources we spend on defence is out of necessity without the need they provide marginal utility.

You have no idea what kind of neighbours we are living with

They would happily carve out India amongst themselves if we were weaker

The marginal utility of these weapons can be understood in the context that
PLAAF will have 1000 Fourth Generation planes in less than a decade

Do you remember the kind of paranoia that India went through in 2009 and 2010
after repeated Chinese incursions ; do you want it to get worse
 
Sir, I don't have to guide you when you have the whole database with you, so spare me the trouble.

What I can say is, the unit program cost of a rafale is around 150 million, supported by literature available in French Senate. Now the unit production cost though still lies somewhere around 120 million or so.

Now the cost f 250 million will somewhat look like this. And mind you, no one is getting rich here as this is g2g deal and none other than the PM is responsible 1. For making it a g2g deal 2. For allowing such a political bravado which first and foremost is scrutinble by the opposition and the dynamics of financial mindgame to our regulatory bodies who stand unbiased in tested times. But as you and anyone can guess there "could' be rooms for error and a possible chance of some sugar coating. This is political aspect of it.

Now, what we have asked the French is something that has been asked from every other country they have dealt with. Qatar had been negotiated, albeit with less success for the same price.

Here IAF as you know wants customization in every plane. In India you see is full of diverse climate and a challenging plane. West is so radically different then east that unless you have a adaptable platform with great support systems you are likely to be handicapped in a daunting task.

That was lecture. And without further boring you, I will say that. Rest of the amount has been charged for 2 support bases to ensure 90% availability at anytime.

Weapons package that is around 5% to 7% roughly of the planes cost. Not ruling out meteor mica's and I'm expecting Israeli hmd and software plugins to allow operating of Israeli, Indian and possible Russian missiles probable.

30 % of offsets to be invested back in India to support the Indian home grown programs for future.

Now the French as shrewd they are were not willing to be paid less for a contract that lasts for 20 years a minimum. And I guess we paid them a justifiable price just to keep them in business for years to come.

Who wants to be bullied by a 7 trillion economy after 10 years. So they had their chance and they used it.

We will just wait for our opportunity a little late.

We call that give and take back in diplomatic terms.
:)
I couldn't find it that is why i asked you, you sounded like you are well familiar with such "fact posts" in the relevant thread.
Anyway, thanks for your time, i have got an idea now.
 
You have no idea what kind of neighbours we are living with

They would happily carve out India amongst themselves if we were weaker

The marginal utility of these weapons can be understood in the context that
PLAAF will have 1000 Fourth Generation planes in less than a decade

Do you remember the kind of paranoia that India went through in 2009 and 2010
after repeated Chinese incursions ; do you want it to get worse

I completely agree. Let's look at it this way - I would sacrifice Rafales if India could exist in same geo-political framework as Switzerland i.e. no enemies.
 
I completely agree. Let's look at it this way - I would sacrifice Rafales if India could exist in same geo-political framework as Switzerland i.e. no enemies.

I think Canada won't agree with you and more so Aussies who don't even have a neighbor :)
 
I completely agree. Let's look at it this way - I would sacrifice Rafales if India could exist in same geo-political framework as Switzerland i.e. no enemies.

It is our Destiny ; we cant change it

Indians are Totally pacifist by nature

Even after a BRUTAL History of suffering from invasions in the
last 1000 years ; STILL after 1947 we were NOT interested in Military strength

It took the 1962 disaster to Bring India BACK to REALITY ; from the Airy fairy world
of world peace and Panchsheel

Still we have NOT given up hope on China

But Let us understand China ; these China SPECIFIC preparations are Being done
after a THOROUGH analysis by a specialist China STUDY GROUP in the Indian Government

Prior to 2009 we never articulated the Two front scenario

China is very Ambitious ; It wants to be the UN CHALLENGED power of Asia

There is a Concept in the Chinese Communist Party and PLA
which calls for TEACHING a lesson to errant Neighbors

And since China will NOT be able to MATCH USA ; as a Global super power
it will take out its frustration on smaller neighbors such as India ; Japan; Taiwan ; Vietnam
and Philipines

China is a Totally different Country than what the Soviet Union ever was
Soviets believed in Warsaw Pact and friendly Immediate Neighborhood

China believes in throwing its weight around and Bullying its neighbors
 
My heart says this should be one of the final foreign acquisitions. But mind and logic differs...

So, in regards to the Indian rafale line - will it just be screwdriver tech or, as time advances, will the line be able to (mostly) produce the jet from raw materials and know-how from/in India as we get more and more experience? In other words, is dassault just going to fabricate the parts and the India line just screws it together throughout the 15 years of this India line?

Thanks for your input, it helps a lot! :)

@PARIKRAMA
 
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