Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Stephen Cohen]

@Spectre

In case you have any doubts about Chinese thinking and intentions
Please REMEMBER that China has Settled its land Border disputes with
ALL COUNTRIES EXCEPT India

They are Firm in their demand for Arunachal Pradesh to be handed over to them

Add to it their alliance with Pakistan ( Surely you dont have any doubts about Pakistani intentions )

Then there is the String of Pearls doctrine

The question is WHY China wants to keep needling India

The answer is simple ; They see India as a potential challenger in future
Several articles in The CCP News papers written by Ex PLA Generals
have called for Teaching a Lesson to India AGAIN

If India becomes weak ; China will immeidately take full advantage of the situation

There should be No doubt in our minds

 

[Spectre]

@Spectre

In case you have any doubts about Chinese thinking and intentions
Please REMEMBER that China has Settled its land Border disputes with
ALL COUNTRIES EXCEPT India

They are Firm in their demand for Arunachal Pradesh to be handed over to them

Add to it their alliance with Pakistan ( Surely you dont have any doubts about Pakistani intentions )

Then there is the String of Pearls doctrine

The question is WHY China wants to keep needling India

The answer is simple ; They see India as a potential challenger in future
Several articles in The CCP News papers written by Ex PLA Generals
have called for Teaching a Lesson to India AGAIN

If India becomes weak ; China will immeidately take full advantage of the situation

There should be No doubt in our minds

Again, I dont disagree. My point was limited to a specific context.

 

[Alpha Fighter]

It is our Destiny ; we cant change it

Indians are Totally pacifist by nature

Even after a BRUTAL History of suffering from invasions in the
last 1000 years ; STILL after 1947 we were NOT interested in Military strength

It took the 1962 disaster to Bring India BACK to REALITY ; from the Airy fairy world
of world peace and Panchsheel

Still we have NOT given up hope on China

But Let us understand China ; these China SPECIFIC preparations are Being done
after a THOROUGH analysis by a specialist China STUDY GROUP in the Indian Government

Prior to 2009 we never articulated the Two front scenario

China is very Ambitious ; It wants to be the UN CHALLENGED power of Asia

There is a Concept in the Chinese Communist Party and PLA
which calls for TEACHING a lesson to errant Neighbors

And since China will NOT be able to MATCH USA ; as a Global super power
it will take out its frustration on smaller neighbors such as India ; Japan; Taiwan ; Vietnam
and Philipines

China is a Totally different Country than what the Soviet Union ever was
Soviets believed in Warsaw Pact and friendly Immediate Neighborhood

China believes in throwing its weight around and Bullying its neighbors

china didn't settled boundary dispute with all neighbours , its only does with , Russia , because Russians given them the slap on face.

they have the strategy to grab land / sea inch by inch , Do in small , so their is no Direct war and they also win. But Now IA under new Govt. striking back to china.

Demolishing Chinese TOWER had done recently, which make China very nervous , As Indian are on cross roads and China knows , any Indian movement can wipe China dreams , so they do all kinda things threating to needling.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

china didn't settled boundary dispute with all neighbours , its only does with , Russia , because Russians given them the slap on face.

No they have settled all LAND border disputes except India

The disputes with Japan ; Philipines and Vietnam is over ISLANDS in the South China sea

They are called maritime disputes

 

[PARIKRAMA]

So, in regards to the Indian rafale line - will it just be screwdriver tech or, as time advances, will the line be able to (mostly) produce the jet from raw materials and know-how from/in India as we get more and more experience? In other words, is dassault just going to fabricate the parts and the India line just screws it together throughout the 15 years of this India line?

Thanks for your input, it helps a lot!

@PARIKRAMA

The kit based assembly will mean nothing for us over long time.
we will surely do the localisation aspect and over time reach a critical level of producing the whole Rafale in India from raw material stage. If i remember correctly, the team had presented a stage by stage numbers and percentage of localisation in a grid along with cost savings and benefits in terms of skill and capability development. This is as per multiple tranches.

if i remember Trappier commented that by the end of 90 jets or the first tranche a substantial localisation would be over and Rafale will be produced in India.

 

[Alpha Fighter]

No they have settled all LAND border disputes except India

The disputes with Japan ; Philipines and Vietnam is over ISLANDS in the South China sea

They are called maritime disputes

Let get back top Planes

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The kit based assembly will mean nothing for us over long time.
we will surely do the localisation aspect and over time reach a critical level of producing the whole Rafale in India from raw material stage. If i remember correctly, the team had presented a stage by stage numbers and percentage of localisation in a grid along with cost savings and benefits in terms of skill and capability development. This is as per multiple tranches.

if i remember Trappier commented that by the end of 90 jets or the first tranche a substantial localisation would be over and Rafale will be produced in India.

Hello Sir

Are we getting Meteor missile

 

[ManOnWall]

if i remember Trappier commented that by the end of 90 jets or the first tranche a substantial localisation would be over and Rafale will be produced in India.

Good, I think localisation is the key, it will have multiplier effects in other manufacturing industries in India and as you said before - this will help us with our projects over time.

So if I roughly calculate:

If we are ordering around 300 just for IAF,

300 - (90 for first tranche) - (36 from France) = 174.

So around 150 to 170 jets from later batches will have a good amount of localization... (Would you agree, or am I just being an idiot, or is it too hard to tell for the time being?)

Anyway, I am quite happy with around half of the jets being screwed together and half being made in India - that's a damn good deal considering all the other tech that will come along with it!

 

[zebra7]

Hello Sir

Are we getting Meteor missile

Not yet, a seperate deal have to be made with the MBDA latter on for the Meteors.

What could have been done, was the order of the Rafale, Simulators few years back.

 

[ManOnWall]

Not yet, a seperate deal have to be made with the MBDA latter on for the Meteors.

What could have been done, was the order of the Rafale, Simulators few years back.

How is the Astra doing, are trials going on?

 

[zebra7]

How is the Astra doing, are trials going on?

1. Astra MK-1 is doing well and soon will be inducted.
2. Desi Seekers are been fabricated, ground trials are going on.
3. Astra MK-2 would be the Game Changer, and would become, the main BVR weapon of India.
4. There is some issues with the TVC nozzle of the Astra or is not mature enough or may be I am crazy, thats why Astra MK-1 have a big, Mid body fins for the surface control.

 

[ManOnWall]

2. Desi Seekers are been fabricated, ground trials are going on.
3. Astra MK-2 would be the Game Changer, and would become, the main BVR weapon of India.

Nice! I think desi seekers will be the key, additionally if we can get it fully localized for MK1 and 2 - that will be the icing on the cake.

From now, I think there has been a ramp-up in missile tech localization. We still have a long way to go - for example, as Parrikar said, 65% of "Made in India" Bhramos is imported.....

Although, positive things are happening, like doubling output of Akash missle of 100 a month. That has quite a good proportion of desi tech from what I've heard/seen.

These are just the stepping stones, with help from abroad, I think we have a huge potential.

 

[zebra7]

Nice! I think desi seekers will be the key, additionally if we can get it fully localized for MK1 and 2 - that will be the icing on the cake.

From now, I think there has been a ramp-up in missile tech localization. We still have a long way to go - for example, as Parrikar said, 65% of "Made in India" Bhramos is imported.....

Although, positive things are happening, like doubling output of Akash missle of 100 a month. That has quite a good proportion of desi tech from what I've heard/seen.

These are just the stepping stones, with help from abroad, I think we have a huge potential.

LOLZ -- The Seeker is not the sensing device but in reality its the Algorithm to detect the target behind the background Clutter, and India, have to learn a lot, and may be Israel, can help India in that, but nothing comes free in the true world.

Actually, we have to keep ourself updated with the changing future tech. and Might be we should aim for the self reliance in the A2A Missile tech, a self reliance in field of the Missiles but we have to develop the state of art, Smart Weapons, and DEW weapons, which will be the Future weapons of the Future.

 

[ManOnWall]

LOLZ -- The Seeker is not the sensing device but in reality its the Algorithm to detect the target behind the background Clutter.

Ohhhh, whenever I read seeker I always thought it was the physical sensing device ooops...

Thanks. lol

LOLZ -- The Seeker is not the sensing device but in reality its the Algorithm to detect the target behind the background Clutter, and India, have to learn a lot, and may be Israel, can help India in that, but nothing comes free in the true world.

Actually, we have to keep ourself updated with the changing future tech. and Might be we should aim for the self reliance in the A2A Missile tech, a self reliance in field of the Missiles but we have to develop the state of art, Smart Weapons, and DEW weapons, which will be the Future weapons of the Future.

So are we getting any full or even partial codes to help us on this front, from this rafale deal? (Bear with me, im no CompSci guy, so I am a bit dim when it comes to these things......

 

[zebra7]

Ohhhh, whenever I read seeker I always thought it was the physical sensing device ooops...

Thanks. lol

Seeker consists of both Hardware, which constitutes the RF Modules Emitters/Sensors, Amplification circuitary, Cooling Mechanism, CPU and algorithm and I/O device, to connect with the Missile Mission Computer. Now a days like in Derby ER BVRAAM, the Israeli have created the Software based Radar (SBR) Seekers and miniturized computer. Remember the capability, lethality, and the distance it can reach depends on the algorithm, the program in a BVRAAM.