Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Spectre]

Two main ways : Buy the Rafales with your Israeli radar in it. Maximal cost is incurred as
Dassault will make you pay every integration penny if no other client wants it.

Or, buy the Rafales, look into your plan as a second mount option and take your time in
mastering the tech. Then go upgrade MLU type. That route voids the warranty though.
If you autonomously change a product and swap parts, you're on your own after that!

I'd really question the utility of the move!
Wait for MII contract to discuss ToT my friend, Tay.

This warranty voiding thing is word to word same as what my volvo dealer told me when we spoke about tuning the engine. There is gotta be a different way. Anyway not much utility as you said of replacing uber expensive subsystems.

 

[Dash]

Can you guide me to the relevant post there? I guess it will be about ToT and support systems? Still, it is what, 250 million a plane?
Anyway, you are right, i wont make assumption, it will be great if you can guide me to the relevant post.


costing 250 million a plane?

Sir, I don't have to guide you when you have the whole database with you, so spare me the trouble.

What I can say is, the unit program cost of a rafale is around 150 million, supported by literature available in French Senate. Now the unit production cost though still lies somewhere around 120 million or so.

Now the cost f 250 million will somewhat look like this. And mind you, no one is getting rich here as this is g2g deal and none other than the PM is responsible 1. For making it a g2g deal 2. For allowing such a political bravado which first and foremost is scrutinble by the opposition and the dynamics of financial mindgame to our regulatory bodies who stand unbiased in tested times. But as you and anyone can guess there "could' be rooms for error and a possible chance of some sugar coating. This is political aspect of it.

Now, what we have asked the French is something that has been asked from every other country they have dealt with. Qatar had been negotiated, albeit with less success for the same price.

Here IAF as you know wants customization in every plane. In India you see is full of diverse climate and a challenging plane. West is so radically different then east that unless you have a adaptable platform with great support systems you are likely to be handicapped in a daunting task.

That was lecture. And without further boring you, I will say that. Rest of the amount has been charged for 2 support bases to ensure 90% availability at anytime.

Weapons package that is around 5% to 7% roughly of the planes cost. Not ruling out meteor mica's and I'm expecting Israeli hmd and software plugins to allow operating of Israeli, Indian and possible Russian missiles probable.

30 % of offsets to be invested back in India to support the Indian home grown programs for future.

Now the French as shrewd they are were not willing to be paid less for a contract that lasts for 20 years a minimum. And I guess we paid them a justifiable price just to keep them in business for years to come.

Who wants to be bullied by a 7 trillion economy after 10 years. So they had their chance and they used it.

We will just wait for our opportunity a little late.

We call that give and take back in diplomatic terms.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?

Israeli GaN radars ?

It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..

We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..

Sub help.
AMCA help
Tejas help ?

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SO which radar do you plan to FIT into it
Elta 2052

What about the size and other electrical fittings and cooling mechanisms
And then the whole process of software integration

It is NOT an accessory

A radar is as fundamental and basic equipment as the engine

We can only put Israeli weapons and litening or recellite pods

 

[sathya]

Nothing bad in getting the French AESA.

Now talking childish , imagine
French AESA Learning + Israeli AESA learning + Russian AESA learning ==>> A superb AESA creation....

I too think it's impossible that France would allow such a move , when they didn't allow even mirage upgradation by Israel ..

 

[Taygibay]

What I can say is, the unit program cost of a rafale is around 150 million, supported by literature available in French Senate. Now the unit production cost though still lies somewhere around 120 million or so.

Wrong! I made a specific thread on that.
Program cost does not concern India.
Cost delivered to Fr forces is 73-75 M €.

The database as you say exists, mate, Tay.

 

[sathya]

SO which radar do you plan to FIT into it
Elta 2052

What about the size and other electrical fittings and cooling mechanisms
And then the whole process of software integration

It is NOT an accessory

A radar is as fundamental and basic equipment as the engine

We can only put Israeli weapons and litening or recellite pods

I read a post some where Elta 2052 being advAnced than APG79..
And Israel had a condition for offering it.. That more than one type of aircrafts should be fixed with it..

France wouldn't want to replace its radar for some other,
only chance for it is that it don't want sensitive equipment to be exported ... Other than a toned down version ..
I am getting into paranoia if I think of anymore possibilities ..

 

[Dash]

The line in Mérignac is going nowhere. France still has about 38 Rafale to receive under present
order including a trickle rate until 2018 minimum to allow for Egypt's deliveries and LPF previsions
and re-structuring of that very line so that it can triple its output with idle time for the rebuild. And
France still needs to order 45 Rafale by 2020-2025 to get to the minimum complement of 225.
Adding the Qatari order as Egypt will be served by 2019 & the 36 for India it gives us ... 145-160.
145-160 planes to be built not counting the 12 and 18 options in there nor the UAE planning.

Then there is the small problem of the 90 MII. Real localization will only begin with it!
So add the time it takes to sign it to the longevity of that line near Bordeaux. And even
then, a fully local line has to build up, over years! And even then ...

... potential orders past UAE, additional made in France aircrafts from the Indian deals
as per rumours, a stroke of genius decision to get the other 60+ planes lacking from the
original inventory plans for AdlA and Royale and so on.

The line for sale from Mérignac that could have made history was refused by India a few years back.

So no!

But great day to you and all, Tay.

P.S. @Dash OK, elsewhere later but really, they do!

Yeah they do, let me add two canrads to your body to see if you can get a lift when you fa....

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I read a post some where Elta 2052 being advAnced than APG79..
And Israel had a condition for offering it.. That more than one type of aircrafts should be fixed with it..

France wouldn't want to replace its radar for some other,
only chance for it is that it don't want sensitive equipment to be exported ... Other than a toned down version ..
I am getting into paranoia if I think of anymore possibilities ..

We are getting BOTH RBE 2 AESA for Rafale and ELTA 2052 for Tejas and Jaguar

Let us use and compare

May be 10 years from now Our DESI AESA " UTTAM" bight turn out better than BOTH
of them

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

I too think it's impossible that France would allow such a move , when they didn't allow even mirage upgradation by Israel ..

Yes , its difficult.
But we can surely get France to help us get some important things for the AESA correct, maybe like the coolant, the software, how to focus a highly controlled radar beam , how to get the design more efficient , how to configure the radar so that it works in optimal situation with varying power the aircraft can provide... etc etc....

I may be wrong in few things, but there is a lot which France can help us learn.

 

[Dash]

Wrong! I made a specific thread on that.
Program cost does not concern India.
Cost delivered to Fr forces is 73-75 M €.

The database as you say exists, mate, Tay.

So cost delivered to French forces is equal to cost delivered to India.
I know what ur saying Sir but only if there was a level playing field in business.

I understand the upg doesn't bother India. But it bothers Rafale in a miniscule order. I hope you can understand what I'm saying.

 

[Taygibay]

Yeah they do, let me add two canrads to your body to see if you can get a lift when you fa....

Apart from planes and helos, I get lift from surfboards and bikes.
Considering my build, lift is otherwise as temporary as jumping up.

So you are right, canards wouldn't help ...

 

[SR-91]

Two decades? The Rafale won the Indian deal in 2012, only a few years ago.

Almost 300% inflation (in the per aircraft costs) for a few years isn't exactly normal.

Price quoted in 2012 is for jets only without the weapons, infrastructure, spares etc.etc.
Per aircraft cost is still the same . Each Rafale will cost around 80-85 million, multiply that by 126 = $ 11 billion. Cost of Rafales will come down as the numbers are expected to rise to 300 jets. Also remember Indian Air Force wants 90% availability with Rafales as compare to 60-65% with SU-30MKI.

You should read @PARIKRAMA post for the last couple of days.

 

[Dash]

Apart from planes and helos, I get lift from surfboards and bikes.
Considering my build, lift is otherwise as temporary as jumping up.

So you are right, canards wouldn't help ...

Besides that the teens in us navy don't have canrads... Still they do.

I'm not saying they do magic, it only happens when u design a multirole fighter.

Precisely why f 16 is for USAF and f18 is for usn

PS thank you for being a sport. Appreciate it

 

[SR-91]

I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?

France to investb30% back in India . And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .

France will have to invest 50% back in India bro.

 

[topgun047]

France will have to invest 50% back in India bro.

No the deal is for 59000 crore and offsets are 22000 crore.