Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Taygibay]

How long is the production line open for within France (given they just have a relatively few number of orders from other countries and are wrapping up their own domestic requirement)? Are we just moving the production line from there to India in essence? ...

@Vauban @Taygibay votre opinion SVP

The line in Mérignac is going nowhere. France still has about 38 Rafale to receive under present
order including a trickle rate until 2018 minimum to allow for Egypt's deliveries and LPF previsions
and re-structuring of that very line so that it can triple its output with idle time for the rebuild. And
France still needs to order 45 Rafale by 2020-2025 to get to the minimum complement of 225.
Adding the Qatari order as Egypt will be served by 2019 & the 36 for India it gives us ... 145-160.
145-160 planes to be built not counting the 12 and 18 options in there nor the UAE planning.

Then there is the small problem of the 90 MII. Real localization will only begin with it!
So add the time it takes to sign it to the longevity of that line near Bordeaux. And even
then, a fully local line has to build up, over years! And even then ...

... potential orders past UAE, additional made in France aircrafts from the Indian deals
as per rumours, a stroke of genius decision to get the other 60+ planes lacking from the
original inventory plans for AdlA and Royale and so on.

The line for sale from Mérignac that could have made history was refused by India a few years back.

So no!

But great day to you and all, Tay.

P.S. @Dash OK, elsewhere later but really, they do!

 

[Vergennes]

To put it in perspective, our defence budget in 2010 was 30 billion $, in 2015 it was 50 billion $.

@PARIKRAMA @SrNair @Spectre

In fact,your real budget remains at ~ $38-39Bn,the "$50bn" figure includes things such as pensions.

Correct me guys if I'm wrong.

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN

Just like some say that our defence budget is $50-60bn,when in fact it stands at ~€32Bn.
This figure probably includes Gendarmerie's budget + pensions.

 

[sankranti]

@PARIKRAMA @SrNair @Spectre

In fact,your real budget remains at ~ $38-39Bn,the "$50bn" figure includes things such as pensions.

Correct me guys if I'm wrong.

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN

Just like some say that our defence budget is $50-60bn,when in fact it stands at ~€32Bn.
This figure probably includes Gendarmerie's budget + pensions.

That is not a fact.

This year a one time allocation of pending pension due to implementation of OROP was made part of the defence budget. This is not the norm, its an aberration.

An amount of Rs 82,332 crore was been budgeted for defence pensions, mainly to cater to the announcement of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and the Seventh Pay Commission. Addition of pensions hikes the defence budget to Rs 3.41 lakh crore.

Pure Capital expenditure is 12 Billion $.

If you exclude pensions and one time OROP backlog payment, the defence budget is 38.5 billion $.

With pension and pay hike for defence personnels this year, the budget is 51 bilion $.

Again Next year the defence budget will not have this OR OP backlog payment and the amount will reflect the true defence budget.

Now this defence budget does not include

1. Nuclear weapons, Nuclear submarine etc.
2. ISRO (Space/satellite)
3. Para Military forces like BSF, CRPF, ITBP, SPG etc ( 1.3 million men strong)
4. RAW
5. IB

If you include all these as defence apparatus of India, the defence budget will be around 60-70 Billion $.

 

[randomradio]

Wasn't the original deal $11 billion for 126 Rafale?

Now it's almost as much ($9 billion) for only 36 Rafale?

That is some serious inflation.

The original deal was for indigenous production and it was $15B.

The new deal is very different, and it is cheaper than the original deal.

Huh?

Indian sources (and the Indian defence minster) clearly said 126 Rafales:

Deal for 126 Rafale jets ‘economically unviable’: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - Indian Express

Einstein.

Not many people know what Parrikar was talking about at the time.

The Rafale deal size has doubled since then. Even this, many people do not know.

I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?

No. It will be the same standard as French Rafales, plus Indian specific customization.

France to investb30% back in India . And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .

The Typhoon is significantly inferior to the Rafale while being more expensive. Its success is debatable. Rafale will have more international orders in total. 5 new customers are in line apart from Egypt, Qatar, UAE and India. And Qatar's total requirement is 72 jets.

And France still needs to order 45 Rafale by 2020-2025 to get to the minimum complement of 225.

Picdel says France will order more after the 225.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

@ all those who think that this deal can be avoided.
http://www.thequint.com/deqoded/2015/04/14/rafale-decoded-expert-view-on-what-the-aircraft-offers

The last paragraph

"The Rafale has been evaluated by a crack flight testing team from the IAF’s Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment – there is no one better than them in the business. Our countrymen and women can rest assured that the tax payer’s money would be well spent on an aircraft that meets the needs of the nation."

(The author, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a Distinguished Fellow at the Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi)

 

[MKC]

That is not a fact.

This year a one time allocation of pending pension due to implementation of OROP was made part of the defence budget. This is not the norm, its an aberration.

An amount of Rs 82,332 crore was been budgeted for defence pensions, mainly to cater to the announcement of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and the Seventh Pay Commission. Addition of pensions hikes the defence budget to Rs 3.41 lakh crore.

Pure Capital expenditure is 12 Billion $.

If you exclude pensions and one time OROP backlog payment, the defence budget is 38.5 billion $.

With pension and pay hike for defence personnels this year, the budget is 51 bilion $.

Again Next year the defence budget will not have this OR OP backlog payment and the amount will reflect the true defence budget.

Now this defence budget does not include

1. Nuclear weapons, Nuclear submarine etc.
2. ISRO (Space/satellite)
3. Para Military forces like BSF, CRPF, ITBP, SPG etc ( 1.3 million men strong)
4. RAW
5. IB

If you include all these as defence apparatus of India, the defence budget will be around 60-70 Billion $.

Really submarines not included in defence budget, didn't know.

 

[BON PLAN]

Last month I said that RAFALE deal would be announced in 3 weeks.

@BON PLAN when I reconfirmed last week that the deal would be announced in a week you were wondering about my sources and said that price negotiations were still on. We both should be happy that I was correct.

Sure Bro.
I'm happy.
I just found time too long some weeks ago....

 

[SrNair]

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair

I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations.
If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.

@Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back

Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.

Heard about that .
But lets them sign that deal ,then we can celebrate it together

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Really submarines not included in defence budget, didn't know.

Most probably the R&D cost of the nuke reactor isn't, rest costs like that of steel, auxiliary diesels , torpedoes etc are included.

 

[Taygibay]

I just found time too long some weeks ago....

Essentially 2001-2016; IST again!

Of course, it seemed long! Tay.

 

[SrNair]

1) Based on what @PARIKRAMA said...India is going to use Rafale for Navy too... So Rafale is going to dominate Indian Airforce.
2) France seems to be rewarded for their neutral stance during Indian Nuclear tests.
3) With the strengthening of Indian Air Force, India position will become very strong and will encourage china to be "friendly"
4) The strategic balance between India and Pakistan will be tilted decisively.

BTW i love this plane. So beautiful it looks....

We Indians wont forget our friends .
Israel ,France,Russia .These three nations directly defended our 1998 tests and supported us in a lots of issue .
All of them got rewards as much as we can .Billions of defence deals .

 

[dadeechi]

Sure Bro.
I'm happy.
I just found time too long some weeks ago....

As they say Patience is a virtue and you need tons of it when dealing with Indians.

 

[sathya]

Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?

Israeli GaN radars ?

It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..

We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..

Sub help.
AMCA help
Tejas help ?

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[Taygibay]

Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?

Israeli GaN radars ?

It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..

Two main ways : Buy the Rafales with your Israeli radar in it. Maximal cost is incurred as
Dassault will make you pay every integration penny if no other client wants it.

Or, buy the Rafales, look into your plan as a second mount option and take your time in
mastering the tech. Then go upgrade MLU type. That route voids the warranty though.
If you autonomously change a product and swap parts, you're on your own after that!

I'd really question the utility of the move!
Wait for MII contract to discuss ToT my friend, Tay.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?

Israeli GaN radars ?

It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..

We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..

Sub help.
AMCA help
Tejas help ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing bad in getting the French AESA.

Now talking childish , imagine
French AESA Learning + Israeli AESA learning + Russian AESA learning ==>> A superb AESA creation....