Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

60,000 Cr seems to be the most common figure but MP is pushing for some form of discount on even this.

The French want around 80K crores. Parrikar is trying to bring it down to 60K.

At 60K Cr, the Rafale will cost around 250M/unit, including weapons and a longer maintenance period. And the customization is much higher now, including a new engine. For MMRCA, the cost of Rafale was 300M/unit without weapons. So it's a very good deal, especially considering Dassault has to build near 100% of the Rafale in India.

 

[Abingdonboy]

especially considering Dassault has to build near 100% of the Rafale in India.

Well that aspect would be entirely seperate to the 36 being purchased off the shelf.

 

[Hulk]

@Abingdonboy Finally, I see that they are working with 90 more with a private company. You were right about 126
Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy Finally, I see that they are working with 90 more with a private company. You were right about 126
Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India

 

[Ankit Kumar]

@Abingdonboy Finally, I see that they are working with 90 more with a private company. You were right about 126
Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India

He is also correct about >200. Only thing is the timeline.

 

[randomradio]

Well that aspect would be entirely seperate to the 36 being purchased off the shelf.

Only the flyaway numbers of MMRCA have doubled. The manufacturing aspect is the same, possibly greater now.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's too good to be true.
OK, Hawk deal take 22 years to come, but quite without competitor... In our case Rafale was declred L1 4 years ago, and even after Indian PM say india need 36 unit urgently, deal always not signing....
I can't imagine top brass of Dassault doesn't understand all you are syaing here, so I think all the economical efforts have been made. SO ? Are indians too demanding? 20 or 30% discount after 4 years of bargaining is just not possible.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It's too good to be true.
OK, Hawk deal take 22 years to come, but quite without competitor... In our case Rafale was declred L1 4 years ago, and even after Indian PM say india need 36 unit urgently, deal always not signing....
I can't imagine top brass of Dassault doesn't understand all you are syaing here, so I think all the economical efforts have been made. SO ? Are indians too demanding? 20 or 30% discount after 4 years of bargaining is just not possible.

Let MP play his games for now, he may make some progress, he may not but he won't be allowed to hold this process up indefinetly- the PM will see to that along with the NSA and MP is not a stupid man, he will give the go ahead when he is satisifed nothing more can be done. Dassualt simply need to help him realise that sooner rather than later.

It is not worth bringing up the Hawk deal in the context, that was an outlier with very specific circumstances and issues. India is different now, the govt is different and so is the MoD.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Armani @sathya @surya kiran @Hulk @MilSpec @nair
MP talking about fighter jet production lines:

(2.30 onwards)

- In a couple of years (2018) there will be 2-3 fighter production units running in India or about to begin production

-This has got to mean 1xMKI, 1xLCA and 1xRafale (which is the one that will be on the cusp of operating 2 years as mentioned by the DM).

-120 LCA orders confirmed as of now

- LCA production is to be expanded to 16/year

 

[randomradio]

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Armani @sathya @surya kiran @Hulk @MilSpec @nair
MP talking about fighter jet production lines:

(2.30 onwards)

- In a couple of years (2018) there will be 2-3 fighter production units running in India or about to begin production

-This has got to mean 1xMKI, 1xLCA and 1xRafale (which is the one that will be on the cusp of operating 2 years as mentioned by the DM).

-120 LCA orders confirmed as of now

- LCA production is to be expanded to 16/year

He is referring to LCA, Rafale and second MMRCA. MKI line will shut down soon. I think they will start the shutting down process next year end.

The decision for LCA and Rafale have already been made. HAL is setting up the second line of 8 LCAs. Dassault is starting the process of finding their Indian partners. The decision for the second MMRCA will be taken in a year.

 

[Abingdonboy]

He is referring to LCA, Rafale and second MMRCA. MKI line will shut down soon. I think they will start the shutting down process next year end.

The decision for LCA and Rafale have already been made. HAL is setting up the second line of 8 LCAs. Dassault is starting the process of finding their Indian partners. The decision for the second MMRCA will be taken in a year.

The DM quite clearly said "production units" which doesn't refer to lines- there could be 3 production lines for the LCA but this would still only represent 1 production unit. As such, the DM's comments are quite telling- by 2018 there will be 3 production units running (or just about to) and in 2018 this can only refer to LCA, Rafale and MKI. The last MKIs will only be churned out from Nasik in 2019 so 100% he is referring to the MKI's production unit and not the second MMRCA.

 

[randomradio]

The DM quite clearly said "production units" which doesn't refer to lines- there could be 3 production lines for the LCA but this would still only represent 1 production unit. As such, the DM's comments are quite telling- by 2018 there will be 3 production units running (or just about to) and in 2018 this can only refer to LCA, Rafale and MKI. The last MKIs will only be churned out from Nasik in 2019 so 100% he is referring to the MKI's production unit and not the second MMRCA.

The MKI production cycle is 3 years. Once they start making the last 15 or 16, they will have to start shutting down the plants as and when the production ends for those units, so for some contractors 2017 could mark the end of their production schedule for MKI, for some it could be 2018, for Nasik it would be 2019. MKI production doesn't create jobs anymore, so it's redundant when he is talking about the plan to create more jobs in the future.

He is referring to second MMRCA because that's the actual plan. The competitors are already discussing it with the govt, Saab, LM, Boeing in particular. It's for 90 aircraft. The decision is to be expected by this year end.

By units he is talking about the entire ecosystem to produce the aircraft, not just the assembly line.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Su30 MKI production ain't gonna stop before full 18x21 squadrons. Meaning easily till and beyond 2020.

LCA will be the other, and if initial Rafale bought, then 90 more will be manufactured here.

SAAB , LM are options but do not fulfill the requirements.

Closest ones are Boeing and Mikoyan Gurveich.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's too good to be true.
OK, Hawk deal take 22 years to come, but quite without competitor... In our case Rafale was declred L1 4 years ago, and even after Indian PM say india need 36 unit urgently, deal always not signing....
I can't imagine top brass of Dassault doesn't understand all you are syaing here, so I think all the economical efforts have been made. SO ? Are indians too demanding? 20 or 30% discount after 4 years of bargaining is just not possible.

Su30 MKI production ain't gonna stop before full 18x21 squadrons. Meaning easily till and beyond 2020.

LCA will be the other, and if initial Rafale bought, then 90 more will be manufactured here.

SAAB , LM are options but do not fulfill the requirements.

Closest ones are Boeing and Mikoyan Gurveich.

Gripen too near in performance than LCA
F35.... absolutely not. US will never accept the minimum ToT.
SH18 heavy, anemic in AtoA role. Only understandable for its carrier model, but with Rafale.... it's useless.

My favorit in case of a 2° medium plane lign is F16. Single engine, versatile, efficient in all role, possibly equiped with israeli's radar and electronic counter mesures to be very distinctive than Pakistian's ones, and at the end of its life, so easier to transfert than a F35 for exemple.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

AND IF FINALLY THE INDIAN AIR FORCE WAS MOVING WELL TOWARDS 126 DASSAULT RAFALE?

Latest rumor dated, relayed that since Thursday, March 10, 2016 by the press both Francophone and Anglophone: the Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault Aviation are agreed on the sale of 36 fighter aircraft built in France and 90 assembled locally by the Indian industry.Is this rumor credible?

Google Translate