Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

Perhaps but the IA/IAF had selected the Fennec intially- it was only through Poltical intervention that the deal was awarded to Kamov. The Fennec will be cheaper to operate most likely.

I was mostly disappointed not with the selection itself- the Ka-226T is fine, but that Kamov selected HAL, and not an Indian private player, to make the birds in India.

The tender was a UPA goof up. It should have gone through the MMRCA type selection, then only the Ka-226T would have qualified. The Ka-226T has way too many good advantages, like comparing Rafale to a Gripen.

The Ka-226 has more payload, higher ceiling, higher climb rate, better control in rarefied atmosphere etc. It's twin engine, so safer in the Himalayas.

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Why MoD Picked the Kamov Ka-226T 'Hoodlum' over the Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec

MI-17 is not suitable for the IN or ICG and, according to Aribus, the IA is looking at the EC-725.

For that, the Sikorsky is the absolute best. The ones that belong to the Black Hawk fame. The Seahawk derivative is the one that won the tender.

 

[surya kiran]

why on earth would they do that? the f18 production line is dependant on export orders with the pentagon ordering a trickle. they want india to buy the f18 so it an be a similar proposal to the mki's. they bul some and then provide sub sections which is to ensure americain jobs are secure. but if india commits to 200+ then they will move the entire line to india. but the sensitive kit will be made in the usa and shiped to india in sealed containers and must be sent to the usa for maintainance. saab will be the same but it wont come with sencitive kit. the rafaleis anyone guess. i have not heard much of our typhoon. any idea?

Which is why I say F-18 does not fit our requirement. The Typhoon has a better chance compared to the F-18. As per what Parikrama was saying, its still in the game.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The tender was a UPA goof up. It should have gone through the MMRCA type selection

There was a competitive bidding process for the RSH- although it was hampered at every stage by the traditional UPA-era goofs and controversy.

he Ka-226 has more payload, higher ceiling, higher climb rate, better control in rarefied atmosphere etc. It's twin engine, so safer in the Himalayas.

Being twin engined it will also be more expensive to operate over its life span- the IAF and IA have operating the single engined Cheetah/l in the North with few issues for 40+ years. Yes, twin engined is nice to have but it is not essential over land- unlike for the navy who operate at sea. The IAF/IA didn't demand twin engined and even the HAL LUH is going to be single engined (which will give it a significant competitive advantage over the Ka-226T in terms of LCCs).

For that, the Sikorsky is the absolute best. The ones that belong to the Black Hawk fame. The Seahawk derivative is the one that won the tender.

Seperate requirements. The IN has selected the 10 ton S-70B for ASW roles but they are also looking for 12+ ton helicopters and so the EC-725 fits well for that requirement. The ICG too has now selected the EC-725 for their shore based SAR duties, in addtion to that the IA is also interested in this bird for their requirements and the IAF will be for their CSAR helicopter requirement. It makes sense to simply pool the requirements, go for a large joint order and have Airbus set up a production line for this type in India with an Indian private player.

The Typhoon has a better chance compared to the F-18. As per what Parikrama was saying, its still in the game.

It is a pretty transparent pressure tactic.

 

[mirage]

Even for fuddu LCA if US stops supply of engines its a dud

oye , what is fuddu ?

 

[Blue Marlin]

Which is why I say F-18 does not fit our requirement. The Typhoon has a better chance compared to the F-18. As per what Parikrama was saying, its still in the game.

why go for typhoons and rafales? just buy more 36 rafales and buy more lateron simple. tell lockheedmartain, boeing, the eurofighter consitum and saab to do one.

 

[surya kiran]

why go for typhoons and rafales? just buy more 36 rafales and buy more lateron simple. tell lockheedmartain, boeing, the eurofighter consitum and saab to do one.

That's the idea. More Rafale. The confusion is with the second private line. Just read the conversation for the past 10 pages.

 

[Abingdonboy]

why go for typhoons and rafales? just buy more 36 rafales and buy more lateron simple. tell lockheedmartain, boeing, the eurofighter consitum and saab to do one.

It's a bluff, 200+ Rafales are on their way- the rest is all noise.

 

[Blue Marlin]

That's the idea. More Rafale. The confusion is with the second private line. Just read the conversation for the past 10 pages.

dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it. heck even the russains are playing it safe and choose hal to bult the 226's. yes the government does want to change that to the private sector but thats easy said than done. tata has no experiance building planes and yet they are building c295's? im sorry for not having enough faith in your country but im ridgid to buy it all and beleve its all kushdi. if you want my advice i say give hal engineers a kick up the back side an have redundancy checks by foreign [french] engineers. also have an apprentiship program where the bright eyed and bushy tailed youth can learn from the old timers. but not learn their ethic of work which i awful. and heck expand hall facilities across the states.

@Abingdonboy (in regards to the post you quoted me) i shall wait and see, all the best though, hope it works out for you guys.
any idea on the current 36 its getting near to the end of the 4 weeks from the 25th.

 

[Abingdonboy]

dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it. heck even the russains are playing it safe and choose hal to bult the 226's.

The Ka-226T was one example and a rather strange case, the situation with the Rafale is, interestingly, almost the complete reverse. Much/most of the problems in the MMRCA talks were centered around the HAL-Dassualt rivalry/differences and Dassualt desperately wanted to work with Reliance but under MMRCA rules HAL had to be the lead intergrator.

Now the MMRCA is dead and under the current talks Dassualt has been given full authority to pick any Indian party it wishes and form a consortium to produce Rafales in India-suffice to say they haven't chosen HAL.

@Abingdonboy (in regards to the post you quoted me) i shall wait and see, all the best though, hope it works out for you guys.
any idea on the current 36 its getting near to the end of the 4 weeks from the 25th.

It will be signed during this FY (ends March 31st ).

 

[randomradio]

dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it. heck even the russains are playing it safe and choose hal to bult the 226's. yes the government does want to change that to the private sector but thats easy said than done. tata has no experiance building planes and yet they are building c295's? im sorry for not having enough faith in your country but im ridgid to buy it all and beleve its all kushdi. if you want my advice i say give hal engineers a kick up the back side an have redundancy checks by foreign [french] engineers. also have an apprentiship program where the bright eyed and bushy tailed youth can learn from the old timers. but not learn their ethic of work which i awful. and heck expand hall facilities across the states.

@Abingdonboy (in regards to the post you quoted me) i shall wait and see, all the best though, hope it works out for you guys.
any idea on the current 36 its getting near to the end of the 4 weeks from the 25th.

Building stuff via JV is far easier than doing the stuff alone.

 

[surya kiran]

dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it.

Its in all possibility going to be Reliance, not TATA. And if there is one thing, I have learnt about Reliance, it is that they get the job done.

The comment by the MoD was, 'it could be one or two'. One line is for Tejas with HAL, he actually mentioned that a second private line could be opened for Tejas. Third line will be Rafale.

This is what, I think, is going to be the case. Rest is noise.

As for the Kamovs, HAL already has a working relationship with the engine providers, with whom they have developed the Shakti engine.

 

[Taygibay]

About that chopper discussion earlier :

Enough said!

Tay.

 

[surya kiran]

What if one of the lines is the 'COMBAT HAWK' ???????????

 

[Blue Marlin]

The Ka-226T was one example and a rather strange case, the situation with the Rafale is, interestingly, almost the complete reverse. Much/most of the problems in the MMRCA talks were centered around the HAL-Dassualt rivalry/differences and Dassualt desperately wanted to work with Reliance but under MMRCA rules HAL had to be the lead intergrator.

Now the MMRCA is dead and under the current talks Dassualt has been given full authority to pick any Indian party it wishes and form a consortium to produce Rafales in India-suffice to say they haven't chosen HAL.


It will be signed during this FY (ends March 31st ).

thats my point the 226 should have passed on to the private sector. why it didnt is a mystery. why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

thats my point the 226 should have passed on to the private sector. why it didnt is a mystery. why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.

There was a news someplace that HAL is actually grandfathered by Russia right from initial days so Russian all products they want only HAL.. no pvt company..

Perhaps its also bcz the level of control makes it easier for Russia with HAL ...