Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

I am ok with paying whatever it needs to get 6 squadrons of a new platform being built in India, but paying an obscene amount for 36 units, is shooting yourself in the foot.

Agreed sir, I am of the same mind- it should be 150+ Rafales or 0.

A final figure of 36 (or even 54 with 18 follow-ons) is a woefully sub optimal solution that fails to adress a single issue but actually ADDS huge problems to the IAF in the long term.

I don't understand the current leadership's game at all, to the public they are only stipulating this 36 figure (with the odd mention of 18 follow on units) but it is clear for all to see that the requirement is so much more than that- the IAF has offically stated they need at least 6 SQNs worth- so why keep up this pretence? Why not just admit they are trying to get the MMRCA through a different route? Are they REALLY that scared of being percieved to be copying UPA policies?

However although I am not a big supporter of anything more than 72 Rafale and 60-100 FGFA.

So then how exactly would the IAF attain its 42 SQN sanctioned strength,that the Parliament standing commitee on defence itself has said should be 45 by 2025? Right now the IAF's fighter SQN strength stands at around 28-30, by 2022/3 the IAF will be down to 24/5 or so , 72 Rafales and 100 FGFA are around 10 SQNs worth of fighters, the IAF will have stood down more than that by 2025. And then from 2027- another round of "stand downs" begin as the MiG-29UPGs, Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s get to the end of their service lives.

When fighters being phased out > fighters being inducted then your force levels will drop and considering the IAF is ALREADY operating well below its SQN strength what is your prescription bro?

Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

A very very odd comment. It almost makes out that the MoD has a seperate requirement in line with MMRCA de-linked from the 36 Rafale deal and this is what I picked up from the CEO of Boeing's statement about making the F-18 in India. He said over the next few years the MoD was looking to select a new fighter to be made in India and it also ties in with that random bit of news (that seemed to disappear) about a "MMRCA 2.0" where the MoD had begun the process of issuing a new RFI for a reboot of the process to meet the orginal requirements.

And then this article goes on to say, the point of the 36 was only to address the immediate requirements of the IAF (a point Modi made at the time in Paris) but fails to elaborate what gap these units would bridging and what the long term solution would be (ie more Rafale/MKI/LCA).

Obviously if all goes well with Dassualt this will be the Rafale but is the MoD trying to play games and dangle that carrot for others? Haven't heard anything from the EFT camp, you'd have thought they would be wetting their pants with excitment to re-enter the fray.

@Levina @Parul @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @anant_s @Skull and Bones @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ

 

[Taygibay]

I'll be blunt and say that I perceive a personal rivalry between Parrikar and Modi.
I believe that this situation even though modest, almost latent at present, is an
additional source of noise in the deliciously dazed and confused world of Indian media!

No offense, Tay.

 

[Nilgiri]

a personal rivalry between Parrikar and Modi.

Huh? What makes you say that?

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'll be blunt and say that I perceive a personal rivalry between Parrikar and Modi.
I believe that this situation even though modest, almost latent at present, is an
additional source of noise in the deliciously dazed and confused world of Indian media!

No offense, Tay.

Hmm, interesting, could you please expand on this a little sir? What do you base this perception on?

Was it after seeing this (watch from 1.36- ):

(then 4.46, Modi can't wait to get away )

 

[Taygibay]

They are not the same and both going places?
With one narrow hallway and one seat to fill?

The discrepancies between PM and MoD offices & statements have been clear since the Paris visit.
They were there before too. That's just on Rafale.

I also don't keep to mil matters and know of their respective political pasts.
Parrikar is both all-star player and potential thorn to Modi.
Elections never stop coming ...

G'day, Tay.

 

[dadeechi]

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @Nilgiri @dadeechi
Tagging you folks too.. MilSpec Sir did raise a very solid point. What you guys feel about it? Essentially what he has written is a a beautiful solid point...

BTW news about F18s again being offered under MII - is that you feel will help India with USA - Boeing and LM constant pressure perhaps will make Dassault agree to negotiations. Especially since they have just briefed IN about Rafale M in last few days of Jan 2016 for a potential Catobar ACC deal.


or its an act of desperation like Gripen offers as you know all is over yet we should make some noise with hope for something extra ordinary.

Fact is whatever may be the reason, IAF are in love with RAFALEs.

I am confident that any alternative option would be fought by IAF tooth and nail.

From IAF perspective, worst scenario would be that govt would cap the RAFALEs at 36 and go for F-18s under MII.

I am cross posting my thoughts from the FGFA thread

https://defence.pk/threads/arming-i...ice-final-talks-on.420581/page-2#post-8130171

 

[Abingdonboy]

I also don't keep to mil matters and know of their respective political pasts.
Parrikar is both all-star player and potential thorn to Modi.
Elections never stop coming ...

I could understand this and yes, this is the nature of politics, however Parrikar was hand picked by Modi to be in "his team" so I have to assume that this lessens the risk to Modi of Parrikar's "thorniness".

From IAF perspective, worst scenario would be that govt would cap the RAFALEs at 36 and go for F-18s under MII.

Nightmare scenerio indeed but I can't see it happening. It's a case of either or, you can't have both now and certainly not in these quantities. The GoI would be leaving themselves to a COLLOSSAL scandel as soon as that CAG report hit the papers, this is the last thing this current leadership wants.

 

[dadeechi]

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @dadeechi

I gave you guys the goodies a week back.. See here now..

I quote some excerpts from THE WEEK magazine

France has agreed to include 50 per cent offsets (use of components made in India) as part of the deal. The two sides, however, are still fighting it out on the price issue. “The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore), whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK. They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. “The delay in finalising the deal for the last ten years has cost us dear, as we would be paying almost 30 per cent more money for buying only 36 aircraft,” said retired air marshal A.K. Singh.

A team led by Stephane Rebb, the French director-general (armament), had landed in Delhi almost a week before Hollande’s arrival. Rebb was involved in several rounds of negotiations with the Indian Contract Negotiations Committee, headed by Air Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria. The talks focused on the technical and commercial aspects of the deal, but they failed to break the deadlock.

To fulfil the offsets clause in the proposed deal, France agreed to invest half the worth of the project in India. This, sources say, could be in the defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors. Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale jets, is planning to set up a facility in India to manufacture parts of the combat aircraft and may help in the development of India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project. “Setting up the facility to produce parts of the aircraft would not only help in reducing costs for us, but also allow us to fulfil offsets commitments,” said a French source involved in the negotiations. Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

According to retired air marshal R.K. Sharma, there was a need to go for a government-to-government deal for 36 aircraft instead of the previously planned 126 jets. “It was a much needed one, as the Indian Air Force was facing shortage of fighter aircraft and there was an urgent need to fill the gaps being created by the phasing out of older planes,” he told THE WEEK. According to Sharma, who was involved in the previous deal, the move to buy 36 Rafale jets would help the Air Force remain competent and combat-ready.

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/more/from-paris-to-pathankot.html


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@Dash @Oracle 33

Your info has been spot on my friend.

Nightmare scenerio indeed but I can't see it happening. It's a case of either or, you can't have both now and certainly not in these quantities. The GoI would be leaving themselves to a COLLOSSAL scandel as soon as that CAG report hit the papers, this is the last thing this current leadership wants.

I hear that F-18 MII talks are progressing very well. It seems like F/A-18 deal is bound to happen. What needs to be seen is if it would be at the expense of RAFALE or FGFA or not.

 

[Oracle 33]

What exactly are the modifications we are getting? this is getting more complicated each daily basis.

Lets have a fun bet and say what will be the deal price in the end? hehe

 

[ultron]

Man. This is the longest running deal in human history. 11 years and counting.

 

[Dash]

So then how exactly would the IAF attain its 42 SQN sanctioned strength,that the Parliament standing commitee on defence itself has said should be 45 by 2025? Right now the IAF's fighter SQN strength stands at around 28-30, by 2022/3 the IAF will be down to 24/5 or so , 72 Rafales and 100 FGFA are around 10 SQNs worth of fighters, the IAF will have stood down more than that by 2025. And then from 2027- another round of "stand downs" begin as the MiG-29UPGs, Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s get to the end of their service lives.

When fighters being phased out > fighters being inducted then your force levels will drop and considering the IAF is ALREADY operating well below its SQN strength what is your prescription bro?

It cant be, simple and I certainly don't want to prescribe anything to a depleting force level by buying anything and everything in the market that bankrupts us. In one hand we don't want to be called as the largest arms importer and on the other we want to eat grass, still buy assuming we will need a 42 squadron operational squadron!
The reasons are simple yet ground breaking in nature.
1. We surely don't have the belly to buy and maintain a foreign fleet of 126 Rafale + 200 FGFA. One might question the coming in late in declaring the financials, but I and all of us have been blinded so far by the CNC, IAF, Saint Antony and all those who simply bought what IAF demanded by overlooking how deep is our pocket and how much we can spare for something like this.
2. a. The solution is to invest deep in home grown programs to arrest the declining strength.
b. Create an atmosphere where you and the OEM can attain a comfortable position to do something for us.
c. You have the time to do that, only because you are not going out towards an all out war against China and Pakistan where you will need a 55 squadron strength. to guard your borders.
3. Please a humble request to get over this mentality to buy as many planes we want to maintain some stupid parity.
4. I have a feeling that 72 Rafale is more than enough for a fighter which can be configured for many roles.
5. You are atleast maintaining some quality with one and quantity with another.

Bottom line - Buy some quality fighter, Fill the numbers with LCA, Mk 1, MK1a, MK2, AMCA.

 

[surya kiran]

Bottom line - Buy some quality fighter, Fill the numbers with LCA, Mk 1, MK1a, MK2, AMCA.

Unless, the DRDO, ADA, HAL and IAF work together with a foreign partner for the AMCA, it is impossible to get the AMCA up. Only solution, work with the French and Japs to get the AMCA up.

 

[Taygibay]

however Parrikar was hand picked by Modi to be in "his team" so I have to assume that this lessens the risk to Modi of Parrikar's "thorniness".

Political application of keep your enemy closer?

Tay.

 

[Dash]

Unless, the DRDO, ADA, HAL and IAF work together with a foreign partner for the AMCA, it is impossible to get the AMCA up. Only solution, work with the French and Japs to get the AMCA up.

That could be done and that's the reason we are trying to make private players come to defence. Its a long process but it needs to be achieved.

Parrikar is both all-star player and potential thorn to Modi.

Political application of keep your enemy closer?

Parikar is following Modi's mandate. There is no such thing called as enemies and pricks between them.

 

[Taygibay]

Parikar is following Modi's mandate. There is no such thing called as enemies and pricks between them.

I sort of infer from your answer that they are from your favoured side, Dash?
If so, know that I'm not attacking it in any way if so. These things are normal in that field.
I'm just voicing that personally I'm computing it as far as interference in our fave deal.

Not being allowed to vote for either, my opinion carries no further.

Take care, Tay.