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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

7 squads (7 * 18 = 126) will do for me.

1 squad - SFC for nuke delivery.
1 squad - SFC for special ops.
3 squads - Eastern Command to deter China.
2 squads - Western Command to deter Pakistani pigeons and balloons.

126 was the original number anyways. Get that number for 20 billion and close this fcking deal.

Or

Close this deal. Go for 60 F-35 (flyaway condition) and few more Su-30/35/super.
 
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Of course, IAF is going to suffer. The MKI as a solution to me is the most idiotic proposition i have ever heard from the very beginning. Very few people know that as compared to sanctioned ratio of 1.25, the pilot to fighter ratio is 0.81 as per Parliamentary standing committee report as of 2015. The addition of 100 odd twin seaters fighter jet implies a need of 250 such pilots which can very well manage 200+ single seat fighter jet. So what DM MP said as Plan B is not logical as we are already first trying to shore up the numbers of pilot ratio from 0.81 to 1.25. Moreover with 100 odd LCA coming in, such a large new 100 twin seater fighter jet effectively will either led to delays in forming operational squadrons in proper number or one of the program production has to be delayed in order to accommodate. One lucky part is a lot of retirement of old jets which will make some good numbers of pilots free but that does not change the fact that ratio is still less than 1.

I found this part of your post quite interesting.
I will come to the preposterous MKI solution later, but lets talk about the pilot ratio.

sanctioned number is 1.25 pilot to fighter, and currently it stands at 0.81. Who plans the sanctioned squadron strength for the IAF based on strategic roadmap, I am sure it's not the crpf or the railway police it must be the Air staff HQ of India. So when they plan for 42 sqdns and they are already running low on pilots despite the fact they are extremely low on squadron strength, then whose responsible for the gap? Will it be safe to assume it is Air staff HQ which cannot attract enough talent. So instead of solving a recruitment problem, we want to buy single seat fighters because we don't have enough pilots. Wonder if we use the same logic for Indian navy, what if the navy comes out tomorrow and says we are only going procure missile boats, because it takes 1/4th the crew to man a missile boat compared to a destroyer.
Sorry bro but I don't buy this regressive logic at all, it makes for a good argument, but the fact remains essence of plan is to look ahead, not look behind. Let's not blame the two seat construction of MKI as a negative to cover the buffonery that goes on in Air Staff HQ.

Now to the idiotic proposition of SU30MKI' as solution - Chinese are ok with fielding Flankers against their most active potential theaters, so are the russians, IAF apparently is ok with fielding the Flankers for Air Sup, Strike, and maritime application, but when it comes to this mythical medium multirole, flankers are no good. Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.

Talk to any IAF fulcrum or flanker driver and ask them which other platform they think can outperform them, and listen very carefully to their answers.

Addtionally, leaving aside the compelte failure of this "plan b" to actually offer a credible prescription to the mess the IAF finds itself in from a numerical perspective, what is perhaps more chilling is this alternate plan offers NOTHING to address the operational gap a "Hi-lo" mix would create. The Mirage 2000s and much of the Jaguar fleet are gone in 15 years, how will the IAF's deep penetration strike requirements be met? The MKI and LCA are in no way able to handle this task.

And where is the media in all this asking these troubling questions? A complete lack of any sort of scrutiny of these decsions being made behind closed doors is undermining India's national security but it seems everyone is sleep walking into this mess.



MP is out of his depth, that much is apparent. He has no exposure to defence, he has little industrial expereince and he is even a novice as a federal/union cabinet minister. He simply doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what hs should be doing, his continued misleading comments and failure to abide by a single of his own timelines is evidence of this. Everything from DPP to CDS he has promised is nowhere to be seen despite him promising it months ago to be implmented within "weeks".


What will be the net result? The IAF's force continues to contract- machines that should have been out of service decades ago will be forced to soldier on compelling more young men (and now women) to put their lives at risk the longer this farce goes on but at the same time spending less hours in the air in an attempt to mitigate the risks and eek out yet more life from these relics. So the IAF's combat capabilties will be hit all around- it has less aircraft to put in the air, the ones you do have are junk and being flown by less expereinced pilots. Who needs enemies when you have "leaders" such as this?



@anant_s @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Guynextdoor2 @Levina @Parul @IndoUS @Koovie @ranjeet @Star Wars @arp2041 @mkb95 @Dandpatta @danish_vij


MKI wont be able to handle "Deep Penetration Strike role".... lets dwell it little deeper into this.i have never been a big fan of the jaguar's combat performance, at the same time, there are very few aircrafts which have ever been engineered as well but I will come back to that a little later.
This "Deep Penetration Strike" was coined by the IAF as a buzz word for medium range strike aircraft - there is no special requirement for deep Penetration Strike that a MKI cannot do...This buzz word was given to the aircraft because it was useless when it came to interception and air superiority, wherein the actual requirement for the IAF that fit the bill back then was the SAAB Viggen a through bred interceptor and an early multirole do it all aircraft. As far as nuclear delivery is concerned, you can roll one down from a IL76 and the effects will be the same. I don't have the slightest hesitation in saying that SU30MKI can take on the role of any platform in Indian air force and up it 2 folds be it the mirage , jag, 27, or even the surya kiran acrobatics (may be barring the 29 in wvr at 0-8000 ft elev). It was designed to be a do it all platform, and it is exactly what it was designed to be, an Air Dominance Platform, and a bloody good one.

Now coming back to the Jaguar platform, I wish we didn't buy the Jag, I don't like the engine, I dont like the avionics, i dont like the comms, I don't like the way it flies, I hate the reasons why we bought it. But it is one damn good airframe. Unless you run it to the ground you won't wear the airframe, the landing gear is better than anything IAF flies, and it has a lot of life left in it. If we can re-engine it, and not with that shitty adour or the F125, but a solid 55KN engine, it can become a pretty good platform, and will serve for a long time. It has one of the least operational costs, and spares are ample. So if our ASHQ can spend 500 mill, it can keep the Jags in air for a good 20 years, some of the air-frames are as new as 2002. And btw, jag is not the first plpatform that suffers from a poor choice in engine there have been others which wen't through the same ordeal, and it boils my blood that ASHQ keeps conning us decade after decade, and we keep falling for the same shit all the time.
 
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sanctioned number is 1.25 pilot to fighter, and currently it stands at 0.81. Who plans the sanctioned squadron strength for the IAF based on strategic roadmap, I am sure it's not the crpf or the railway police it must be the Air staff HQ of India. So when they plan for 42 sqdns and they are already running low on pilots despite the fact they are extremely low on squadron strength, then whose responsible for the gap? Will it be safe to assume it is Air staff HQ which cannot attract enough talent. So instead of solving a recruitment problem, we want to buy single seat fighters because we don't have enough pilots. Wonder if we use the same logic for Indian navy, what if the navy comes out tomorrow and says we are only going procure missile boats, because it takes 1/4th the crew to man a missile boat compared to a destroyer.
Sorry bro but I don't buy this regressive logic at all, it makes for a good argument, but the fact remains essence of plan is to look ahead, not look behind. Let's not blame the two seat construction of MKI as a negative to cover the buffonery that goes on in Air Staff HQ.

Now to the idiotic proposition of SU30MKI' as solution - Chinese are ok with fielding Flankers against their most active potential theaters, so are the russians, IAF apparently is ok with fielding the Flankers for Air Sup, Strike, and maritime application, but when it comes to this mythical medium multirole, flankers are no good. Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.

Talk to any IAF fulcrum or flanker driver and ask them which other platform they think can outperform them, and listen very carefully to their answers.

Solid points Sir, no doubt when it comes to recruitment part, Air Staff HQ has to share partially the blame along with our media and Government too. From my own personal experience, i can tell you a short small story of my own life experience. Sorry its a bit off topic but perhaps i can throw some light on multiple factors.

Back in my young days, i wanted to be a pilot. In my family, we had a very democratic setup (namesake its basically a dictatorship run by mother but you cannot officially claim it as dictatorship, specific ops role, source of money being father utilization of money by mother led broad structure). So i was asked what commercial plane i wanted to fly as pilot? and i said no commercial jets. I want to become an IAF pilot. The response was a complete silence that day and no discussion further. In the following days there was a emotional outpouring with a major focus to either drop the pilot ambition or stick to commercial jets. The major line was always "I dont want to lose my son" and i was not able to understand why this line. Who is losing their son's if they are AF pilots for fighters? My family and relatives over next many months kept on repeating the same story of "losing son" again and again till i stopped saying the ambition of pilot thing...

Much later when i grew up and wanted to understand what really transpired that an entire family, relatives, near by neighbors etc etc were against becoming fighter pilots.. It led me finally to the story.. "flying coffins" . In effect, this whole saga, followed relentlessly by Press showing one side of loss, despair, hopeless situation and IAF/MOD/GOI not able to come out with a vindictive stand to clear out the wrong perceptions, negative marketing and hit on IAF brand value kind of added fuel to the fire mix.

I am not saying this could be the only reason, but i do believe it was probably an over played trigger in response to the situation. If you see 80s, 90s the fall out looks apparent. Of course, now what we see is a cumulative effect of multiple decades of lower intake or due to lack of appeal among the youth.

Even today, the AIr staff HQ has not been able to come out with a much bigger brand building exercise. Something which can attract more talent. Fresh boots. They have made efforts but the results cant be seen over night. and uptill we see substantial result, perhaps we wont see big changes in that number creeping from 0.81 to 1 to finally 1.25.

About Flanker part, i am not pointing a two seater as just a base for an excuse. Rather i am feeling that if 272 MKIs as and when it comes online, if thery are sufficiently equipped with pilots, and assuming we are unable to either increase the pilot to fighter ratio from 0.81 upwards, the other frontline fighters would face shortage. True take out 100 odd fighters owing to retirement and you get say 81 pilots free (based on 0.81 ratio).
This is where i do have an issue as you see since we failed to attract new talent for reasons like what i said above, this 81 say has an option of being retrained and utilized in
1. Say 80 LCAs or Rafales or any other single seater
2. 40 new MKIs or double seater.

Now single seater could be a Su35 flanker too.. No one says No to it. At least not me IMO. But IAF saying no to it more seems to be from the fact that they dont want Russian jet in this category than anything else plain as daylight type logic. But inducting new twin seaters without addressing the staff shortage issue is an added twist to this complex issue.

Apparently, i had just noticed one small fact. You know a week or 10 days back the intrusion of airspace by a balloon over Rajasthan. Now consider few facts.
  • Bogey detected by radar
  • The size and speed of detection meant we knew its not a fighter
  • We still presumed it could be a UAV
  • We sortied a "Su 30 MKI" to intercept and bring it down
Now we can say that based on air intrusion risk, we needed the best fighter to engage and bring it down. We know its an overkill but threat matrix response needed that.

So then it brings to second most important question in my mind. The air interception for bogey is whose task? Original class notes says Light fighters are for air interception for operational performance benefits and heavier fighters for interception when adverse situations like weather or bogey speed led initial detector to conclude a sophisticated jet intrusion, raising the risk aspect in threat assessment matrix and deployment of Air superiority heavy jets to also handle intrusion threat.
I am sure IAF might have followed and have based on threat level matrix Light , medium and heavy fighters overlapping area of theater under coverage.. But in this case, in a broad daylight, with the bogey identified in radar to be max a low speed UAV does not deem necessary for a higher threat response. Yet we did it..

It critically points me to the fact that threat matrix lower tiers of light and medium category to be addressed by LCA/Mig21 and medium by say Rafales/Mig29/Mirages etc are either not adequate in numbers, not in operational readiness, not in the theater of operations, or most importantly not inducted. And yet result is also inflated opex cost. Imagine a case if it was terrain hugging or low altitude UAV, the present response means we will deploy MKI for such cases too,,. is it optimum use of our own resources?

This leads me to conclude we are over reliant on our warhorse Su 30 MKI only and thus a Plan B with MKI is not an optimum solution. I agree a flanker fitting medium category is not a bad choice but these two categories do need urgent attention. LCA in light at least is a done deal for first phase. But we do need either Rafales or a flanker or another medium category also with a clear cut idea of numbers of production + induction schedule finalization within next few months. Unfortunately, since we have already moved ahead with Rafale so far, its imperative we try our best with them and then if it fails seek another one. But definitely not MKI as we are over relying on the beast.

The best solution could be a in house developed jet but for that first we need LCA program to succeed. Only then we can move to next category building in a progressive manner. and side by side Kaveri program needs fresh infusion to see it through to power such jets in the future. These are time intensive solutions and need at least 2 decades to see fruitful results. Unfortunately, during these times, we have to buy and see from which place we can get best deals.

Sorry for a long reply!!
 
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YOU DO NOT PAY THAT TO DASSAULT UPFRONT.
It is still not decided. Isnt it?
PM & Hollande did not agree on the final contract because they wanted the cost of maintenance, the required armament, the training of pilots and mechanics, etc etc to be finalized.
Hollande said it will take few days, his collaborators said "a few weeks" and Dassault announced 4 weeks.
So lets wait for another 4 weeks.

Why waste tax payer money, Buy Printers instead.
:lol:
 
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@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @Nilgiri @dadeechi
Tagging you folks too.. MilSpec Sir did raise a very solid point. What you guys feel about it? Essentially what he has written is a a beautiful solid point...

BTW news about F18s again being offered under MII - is that you feel will help India with USA - Boeing and LM constant pressure perhaps will make Dassault agree to negotiations. Especially since they have just briefed IN about Rafale M in last few days of Jan 2016 for a potential Catobar ACC deal.


or its an act of desperation like Gripen offers as you know all is over yet we should make some noise with hope for something extra ordinary.
 
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OK, as asked then :

Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.

-Well, if it had a J_20 in pre-prod, Bharat would probably not buy the Rafale, wouldn't you say?
Same with Moscow as they have that T 50 PAKFA and you're but hoping to get the FGFA!


-Yes, there are but between the fanboys and the hairpulling noise on the one hand and secrecy
on the other, it may fly-by low enough to be stealth and thus off your radars!


there is no special requirement for deep Penetration Strike that a MKI cannot do...

Yes, there is. Low-level ingress. The MKI is really big. It needs a valley twice as large as the Rafale
to hide in. I don't have to remind you how narrow some mountain passes are on the world's rooftop?
That's what a one and a half empty weight load capacity does for you that MKI won't!

ob_3a9c70_rafale-vs-su-30mki-the-new-indian-d.jpg


If you liked the Jag in that role, think how IAF pilots will feel when they do as much with HOffTAS ...

See it this way, MilSpec my man : TEI had the top fighters. Out of the 3, one was never for sale but
the other 2 ... were the MMRCA finalists! Don't doubt your choice? ;)

Later gang, Tay.
 
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@Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @dadeechi

I gave you guys the goodies a week back.. See here now..

I quote some excerpts from THE WEEK magazine

France has agreed to include 50 per cent offsets (use of components made in India) as part of the deal. The two sides, however, are still fighting it out on the price issue. “The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore), whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK. They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. “The delay in finalising the deal for the last ten years has cost us dear, as we would be paying almost 30 per cent more money for buying only 36 aircraft,” said retired air marshal A.K. Singh.

A team led by Stephane Rebb, the French director-general (armament), had landed in Delhi almost a week before Hollande’s arrival. Rebb was involved in several rounds of negotiations with the Indian Contract Negotiations Committee, headed by Air Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria. The talks focused on the technical and commercial aspects of the deal, but they failed to break the deadlock.

To fulfil the offsets clause in the proposed deal, France agreed to invest half the worth of the project in India. This, sources say, could be in the defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors. Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale jets, is planning to set up a facility in India to manufacture parts of the combat aircraft and may help in the development of India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project. “Setting up the facility to produce parts of the aircraft would not only help in reducing costs for us, but also allow us to fulfil offsets commitments,” said a French source involved in the negotiations. Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

According to retired air marshal R.K. Sharma, there was a need to go for a government-to-government deal for 36 aircraft instead of the previously planned 126 jets. “It was a much needed one, as the Indian Air Force was facing shortage of fighter aircraft and there was an urgent need to fill the gaps being created by the phasing out of older planes,” he told THE WEEK. According to Sharma, who was involved in the previous deal, the move to buy 36 Rafale jets would help the Air Force remain competent and combat-ready.

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/more/from-paris-to-pathankot.html


upload_2016-2-3_19-26-7.png


@Dash @Oracle 33
 
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@Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @dadeechi

I gave you guys the goodies a week back.. See here now..

I quote some excerpts from THE WEEK magazine

France has agreed to include 50 per cent offsets (use of components made in India) as part of the deal. The two sides, however, are still fighting it out on the price issue. “The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore), whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK. They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. “The delay in finalising the deal for the last ten years has cost us dear, as we would be paying almost 30 per cent more money for buying only 36 aircraft,” said retired air marshal A.K. Singh.

A team led by Stephane Rebb, the French director-general (armament), had landed in Delhi almost a week before Hollande’s arrival. Rebb was involved in several rounds of negotiations with the Indian Contract Negotiations Committee, headed by Air Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria. The talks focused on the technical and commercial aspects of the deal, but they failed to break the deadlock.

To fulfil the offsets clause in the proposed deal, France agreed to invest half the worth of the project in India. This, sources say, could be in the defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors. Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale jets, is planning to set up a facility in India to manufacture parts of the combat aircraft and may help in the development of India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project. “Setting up the facility to produce parts of the aircraft would not only help in reducing costs for us, but also allow us to fulfil offsets commitments,” said a French source involved in the negotiations. Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

According to retired air marshal R.K. Sharma, there was a need to go for a government-to-government deal for 36 aircraft instead of the previously planned 126 jets. “It was a much needed one, as the Indian Air Force was facing shortage of fighter aircraft and there was an urgent need to fill the gaps being created by the phasing out of older planes,” he told THE WEEK. According to Sharma, who was involved in the previous deal, the move to buy 36 Rafale jets would help the Air Force remain competent and combat-ready.

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/more/from-paris-to-pathankot.html


View attachment 291433


@Dash @Oracle 33

Thanks.
R K Sharma is spot on!. competent and combat ready is what MOD is looking at. But its a off topic at the moment.

One thing I have not been able to understand that why they want an Israeli HMDS, when Mirage (upgraded) and Mig 29K in IN use French Topsight HMDS. The only reason I could find as Top sight might not be as compatible with Israeli weapons as per the demand so an Israeli HMD. There are unconfirmed report that we want to add Astra in the weapon package and use American Anti-radiation missile, possibly AGM 88E.

This is for your information and not to scratch your head again :) However although I am not a big supporter of anything more than 72 Rafale and 60-100 FGFA. But there seems to be a possibility of making more Rafales in India if they eventually manage to create a parts productions line and lower the prices further. for example this.

French - $ 9 billion
India - $ 8 billion

Now that's including fly away cost of $ 100 million now including full weapons package, normally weapons package is 5% of fly away cost, which is $ 5 million per plane. Now lets say A. if we can keep the price of the plane to $ 100 million in next 10 years, after lets say giving a spare production line to TATA or HAL or Mahindra Aerospace, we adjust the inflation. Integrating our own weapons system will reduce the cost to even 50% which is substantially high then we get a good deal out of it. Israeli HMDS costs less than French Topsight. You sum it up and there you see a potent, pocket friendly fighter.

If this happens and the successive govt follow this then we have some real chance in breaking it even.
 
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OK, as asked then :



-Well, if it had a J_20 in pre-prod, Bharat would probably not buy the Rafale, wouldn't you say?
Same with Moscow as they have that T 50 PAKFA and you're but hoping to get the FGFA!


-Yes, there are but between the fanboys and the hairpulling noise on the one hand and secrecy
on the other, it may fly-by low enough to be stealth and thus off your radars!




Yes, there is. Low-level ingress. The MKI is really big. It needs a valley twice as large as the Rafale
to hide in. I don't have to remind you how narrow some mountain passes are on the world's rooftop?
That's what a one and a half empty weight load capacity does for you that MKI won't!

View attachment 291418

If you liked the Jag in that role, think how IAF pilots will feel when they do as much with HOffTAS ...

See it this way, MilSpec my man : TEI had the top fighters. Out of the 3, one was never for sale but
the other 2 ... were the MMRCA finalists! Don't doubt your choice? ;)

Later gang, Tay.
Tay,

My follow up post explains my position on deep penetration strike as well as the my views on the Jaguar Sepecat, For me F1 or a viggen would have been a much better choice for us back in the day, as far as terrain hugging flight profiles and low altitude ingress is concerned with PGM's, very few a/f need to bring that option to the the table, and In India's immediate theater of conflict, I don't wan't anything flying in shoulder fired range at all for Air Interdiction.

Don't take my post as a negative for the Rafale, My views on the aircraft is known all along. I do not wan't to see two squadrons of any new platform in the Indian airforce. If there is an addition, to IAF, it needs to be a minimum of 5 squadrons, I specifically don't want a off the shelf system that will not be produced in India. I am ok paying 12 billion for the 36 as long as it includes setup of manufacturing facilty for the Rafale in India, and license to produce another 100 A/c's in India and whatever is the price for that.

-regards.
 
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The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore), whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK. They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion.

Let's learn to substract :

If 8.9 total - 2 for Indian add-ons - 1 weapons = 5.9 for 36 Rafales with the added ultra-high availability requirement.
With your "vampiristic" 50% offsets clause, it's not entirely ridiculous!

If we suppose the reduction to happen, it's below 8B$. How about the add.18 of the MoU & rumours?
If those are in there, just shut up already, grab that deal; set up the extra units requirements tied to the
local production line growing in proportion and end over time with the same result as planned in MMRCA?

Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

That should answer your answer @MilSpec mate!
I do not wan't to see two squadrons of any new platform in the Indian airforce. If there is an addition, to IAF, it needs to be a minimum of 5 squadrons,

How does 200 sound? And made in India as per that article's explain on offsets? 8-)

Let it unfold s'more; it's a saga not a sprint! How many Indians in the last olympic 100M final BTW?
Let's be honest, you guys are not the hurrying type. But it does fray the nerves of those expecting results ...
:chilli:

JK, great day all, Tay.
 
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Tagging you folks too.. MilSpec Sir did raise a very solid point. What you guys feel about it? Essentially what he has written is a a beautiful solid point...

Its a fair point. However I personally feel IAF needs a Rafale class aircraft to safely hedge for multi-mission, multi role combat scenarios. Like say low flying ordinance delivery (radar evading strike) but ability to perform air dominance/interdiction at a moments notice too. The problem with MKI is its relatively optimized to do the latter given its basic airframe design....those large conventional wings (assets in air superiority) become problems in higher density air especially at high speeds (for sudden maneuvers and swing role transition).

It is definitely not a large gaping hole that IAF has if there is no rafale (MKI does the basics fine). But I personally want to see IAF always have 3 class of main combat aircraft: Light, Medium, Heavy to have the maximum options (and thus optimization) available for whatever mission comes its way. It will be good if this lines up to Tejas, Rafale, MKI in the coming years....with the others (Mig 29, M2000) providing the extra helping hand+numbers where needed till they are retired and next generation platforms come online for IAF.

Of course other doctrines are feasbile too...there is no end to discussing them.
 
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sanctioned number is 1.25 pilot to fighter, and currently it stands at 0.81. Who plans the sanctioned squadron strength for the IAF based on strategic roadmap, I am sure it's not the crpf or the railway police it must be the Air staff HQ of India. So when they plan for 42 sqdns and they are already running low on pilots despite the fact they are extremely low on squadron strength, then whose responsible for the gap? Will it be safe to assume it is Air staff HQ which cannot attract enough talent. So instead of solving a recruitment problem, we want to buy single seat fighters because we don't have enough pilots. Wonder if we use the same logic for Indian navy, what if the navy comes out tomorrow and says we are only going procure missile boats, because it takes 1/4th the crew to man a missile boat compared to a destroyer.
Sorry bro but I don't buy this regressive logic at all, it makes for a good argument, but the fact remains essence of plan is to look ahead, not look behind. Let's not blame the two seat construction of MKI as a negative to cover the buffonery that goes on in Air Staff HQ.
A very fair point. And whilst it is abdunently clear that focusing on a single seat fighter just because you don't have enough pilots is the very definition of an a$$ backwards approach. That, said it is not a factor that can be easily ignored, I'm not saying it will play an overiding role but it is worth taking consideration of it. But given all the news during the MMRCA saga that the IAF wanted to increase the twin seat compliment of the eventual deal (from 2-3 per SQN to 6-7) I wouldn't say this factor plays too much into decsion making from the IAF's point of view.


Now to the idiotic proposition of SU30MKI' as solution - Chinese are ok with fielding Flankers against their most active potential theaters, so are the russians, IAF apparently is ok with fielding the Flankers for Air Sup, Strike, and maritime application, but when it comes to this mythical medium multirole, flankers are no good. Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.


MKI wont be able to handle "Deep Penetration Strike role".... lets dwell it little deeper into this.i have never been a big fan of the jaguar's combat performance, at the same time, there are very few aircrafts which have ever been engineered as well but I will come back to that a little later.
This "Deep Penetration Strike" was coined by the IAF as a buzz word for medium range strike aircraft - there is no special requirement for deep Penetration Strike that a MKI cannot do..

Interestingly you have focused on A2A/Air Dominace here and no one is dusputing the capabilites of the MKI in this domain. That said, to claim the MKI is a perfect substitute for the Rafale in the strike role is very much stretching the truth IMHO sir. You have mentioned Russia, but they don't need the Su-27/30SM/35 to perform strike missions as they have the Su-34 that has been specifically designed (yes it is a Flanker derivative but nonetheless) for A2G/strike missions. The MKI simply isn't. It's airframe isn't suited for low level interdiction flights and its radar doesn't have the requiste terrain mapping modes.

Not only that, but the MKI has simply nothing that compares to the SPECTRA level of sensor fusion.


It was designed to be a do it all platform, and it is exactly what it was designed to be, an Air Dominance Platform, and a bloody good one.
Exactly, and this is what the IAF refers to the MKI as- not a strike a/c.



Alas @MilSpec I am coming around to the idea that the money would be better spent on printers for all the good any conventional military systems will have for a nation plagued by a never ending supply of impotent leadership.
 
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I am ok with paying whatever it needs to get 6 squadrons of a new platform being built in India, but paying an obscene amount for 36 units, is shooting yourself in the foot. Terrain mapping mode and low level flights is something I would avoid at all costs, I will keep all platforms away from shoulder fire altitudes. The benefit isn't as high as you think for low flight profiles, with the radars, aerostats, and Awacs these days. Lets face it , if need to fly in combat it going to be Heavy air interdiction air sup missions which will take the fight to the enemy.


A very fair point. And whilst it is abdunently clear that focusing on a single seat fighter just because you don't have enough pilots is the very definition of an a$$ backwards approach. That, said it is not a factor that can be easily ignored, I'm not saying it will play an overiding role but it is worth taking consideration of it. But given all the news during the MMRCA saga that the IAF wanted to increase the twin seat compliment of the eventual deal (from 2-3 per SQN to 6-7) I wouldn't say this factor plays too much into decsion making from the IAF's point of view.







Interestingly you have focused on A2A/Air Dominace here and no one is dusputing the capabilites of the MKI in this domain. That said, to claim the MKI is a perfect substitute for the Rafale in the strike role is very much stretching the truth IMHO sir. You have mentioned Russia, but they don't need the Su-27/30SM/35 to perform strike missions as they have the Su-34 that has been specifically designed (yes it is a Flanker derivative but nonetheless) for A2G/strike missions. The MKI simply isn't. It's airframe isn't suited for low level interdiction flights and its radar doesn't have the requiste terrain mapping modes.

Not only that, but the MKI has simply nothing that compares to the SPECTRA level of sensor fusion.



Exactly, and this is what the IAF refers to the MKI as- not a strike a/c.



Alas @MilSpec I am coming around to the idea that the money would be better spent on printers for all the good any conventional military systems will have for a nation plagued by a never ending supply of impotent leadership.
 
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