Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[MilSpec]

Let's face it.
France has declared economic emergency, mounting debt and unemployment has kept the French on the edge. Defence industry is their only hope. They need to close this deal even if it means lesser profit.
This has been called the "mother of all defence deals" for no reason.
Our relations with Russia are cordial as of now, and Indian govt will maintain the status quo...or so I assume.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
Seems Kuwait is Buying Just 28 Eurofighter At €8 billion (US $8.7 billion)
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ce-kuwait-sign-deal-28-eurofighters/79394322/

9 Billion For 36 Rafale Seems Fair To me Now
your take Guys

People think French are charging more to India out of the blue. It is the standard complete life cycle cost for plane of that generation.

The problem lies with the original MMRCA contract not defining the contract size by total life cycle cost but initial hardware acquisition/production cost....so there are two differing definitions that people think are apples to apples.

Who's surprised? Not me. Maybe all these clowns going around trying to paint a picture of the French being schemers trying to rob India blind and asking for a price that has no link to intrinsic value.

yeah, I still don't buy the life cycle costs.

PLM costs for any product includes the capital acquisition cost along with the operating costs. Operating costs includes costs of spares (gaskets, mounts, inspection hardware ndt ), maintenance costs (dismounting engines, reworking actuators, calibration of sensors, calibration of servos, calibration of transducers) , cost of consumables (hydraulic fluids, alternator service, air filters, aeroduct hoses, brake liners etc), service costs (training, ground equipment, device level trouble shooting, replacement of components)

there is no way that DB, IAF or MOD could have pinpointed the initial + associated operating costs to pinpoint this 9 billion,

I think the intial acquisition cost is around 68-72 million - which btw is exceptionally high - given the MKI is around 52 mil.

I do not buy this PLM cost unless DB takes the entire responsibility operating costs, pays for all MRO stores, completely pays for all technician training and certifications. And if the operating costs are based of of what French airforce has been seeing for thier own fleet, they cannot juxtapose those costs to India and ask us to pay for it. It is not an apple to apple comparison. And in that case they need to submit cost of all consumables, all spares, all replacabe components, and those payments do not need to happen until those services are delivered.

When you buy a car you do not pay for next 20 oil changes, 24 sets of tires, 16 brake liners, 20 gallons of oil, 3 sets of radiators, 4 expansion tanks, and upper/lower hoses, fan clutches , thermostats etc. You pay for the car, get a few free services and set up a TPM regime, and you know what the cost is based on the spares and services. A totyota corolla will cost you less to maintain than a Bentley GT, but you know that before hand , as the cost of these spares are known. Same applies here, cost of spares are known, you can estimate thos costs and account for operating costs but YOU DO NOT PAY THAT TO DASSAULT UPFRONT.

 

[Oracle 33]

yeah, I still don't buy the life cycle costs.

PLM costs for any product includes the capital acquisition cost along with the operating costs. Operating costs includes costs of spares (gaskets, mounts, inspection hardware ndt ), maintenance costs (dismounting engines, reworking actuators, calibration of sensors, calibration of servos, calibration of transducers) , cost of consumables (hydraulic fluids, alternator service, air filters, aeroduct hoses, brake liners etc), service costs (training, ground equipment, device level trouble shooting, replacement of components)

there is no way that DB, IAF or MOD could have pinpointed the initial + associated operating costs to pinpoint this 9 billion,

I think the intial acquisition cost is around 68-72 million - which btw is exceptionally high - given the MKI is around 52 mil.

I do not buy this PLM cost unless DB takes the entire responsibility operating costs, pays for all MRO stores, completely pays for all technician training and certifications. And if the operating costs are based of of what French airforce has been seeing for thier own fleet, they cannot juxtapose those costs to India and ask us to pay for it. It is not an apple to apple comparison. And in that case they need to submit cost of all consumables, all spares, all replacabe components, and those payments do not need to happen until those services are delivered.

When you buy a car you do not pay for next 20 oil changes, 24 sets of tires, 16 brake liners, 20 gallons of oil, 3 sets of radiators, 4 expansion tanks, and upper/lower hoses, fan clutches , thermostats etc. You pay for the car, get a few free services and set up a TPM regime, and you know what the cost is based on the spares and services. A totyota corolla will cost you less to maintain than a Bentley GT, but you know that before hand , as the cost of these spares are known. Same applies here, cost of spares are known, you can estimate thos costs and account for operating costs but YOU DO NOT PAY THAT TO DASSAULT UPFRONT.

I thought we are paying half up front at the moment?

Checkout the UK-Saudi Eurofighter deal it included training, spares, weapons, etc all negotiated prior to signing

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Hearing some buzz
++

• The price negotiations from Indian side has led to few points of change in terms of customization
• Indian side has decided to give up AshM integration of Harpoons and Brahmos for the time being. DA has instead offered Exocet which MOD is finally considering.
• The integration of Astra BVR may include potential hiccups. The present seeker is Russian in Origin and the new Ku Band seeker is suppose to be tested this year or next.
• This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
• The new customization package cost it seems has reduced to almost Euro 1.2-1.3 Bn down from earlier Euro 2 Bn
• The jets + weapons package is now negotiated at Euro 3.6 Bn
• The infrastructure, support, spares, training, TCO, etc etc all put together is approximated at around Euro 3.4 Bn
• So Total approx cost is around Euro (3.6+3.4+1.3) = Euro 8.3 Bn approx or Rs 59,800 Crs or USD 9 Bn
• There are scope for further cutting of approx ~ Euro 1.3 if a base is reduced from 2 to 1

The other aspect of negotiations seems to be

• DM MP wants DA to come down from earlier price quote of Euro 11 Bn to this final offer from Indian side
• MP says if DA comes down after seeing the scope of further business in MII and follow on 18 options, then the engine customization is a go ahead or else that may be dropped too.
• That may reduce the price by another Euro 0.7 Bn and save about Rs 5000 Crs.
• A single base of operations would indicate the final confirmation that its only 36 Jets nothing more.
• The repercussions seems to be that India may finally either freeze at just 36 with major focus to avoid even buying these 36 jets if DA does not comes to understand the joint view point of Indian and French Governments
• DM MP is a bit upset that inspite of making a provision of 50% upfront payment rather than making 15% upfront and next 35% over 4 years as per delivery and work completion, DA does not seems to appreciate that GOI is keen to facilitate them setting up MII part in offsets as well as giving them abundant support financially.
• DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
• Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.
• That would also mean GOI will invest for 2nd line in pvt sector themselves partly for their requirements of LCA in nos.
• India is not officially looking at Naval FGFA, hence IN will have to opt for either Mig29Ks or look for another fighter other than Rafale M/Rafale which is the first choice atm for IN's ambitious plan of CATOBAR and shore based patrolling roles for the future. (F35 will come in sureshot instead of Rafale M)

+++
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.

Now its true that DA being a private entity will think about profits but it does mean it will lose out an opportunity for the whole deal if DA does not support DM and PM vision for MII and affordability part.

If you understand the basic structure source says the original 108+18+63 has effectively become 90+36+45+18 = thats the structure for IAF and for IN its 60+30 = 90 structure in tranche 1. Tranche 2 based on Shore based patrol approval and take over from IAF roles will be much larger than this but will come in much later stage..

So DM MP is clear if DA does not budge and is looking at only corporate profit, it will lose everything asap.

 

[MilSpec]

• This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.

+++
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
.

That is not how missile integration works.
There is no source code for identifying missile like a driver for new hardware on system. It rather needs an adapter to read the bus address for the device which can be any device, if the mission computer is incapable of reading function blocks and resource blocks in the remote station. which can be a jammer, missile, targeting pod, pgm, ashm, flares, recce cameras etc. much like integrating a VFD or a transducer on a PLC. The fundamental logic remains the same. Remember R27ER was qualified on the mirages, so were derby on the MKI. much like a 1553 module where Bus Controller (BC) controlling multiple Remote Terminals (RT) all connected together by a data bus providing a single data path between the Bus Controller and all the associated Remote Terminals. Or in some cases a FFLD styled daisy chained network with device layer protection as seen in industrial protocols like foundation field bus and Multi drop Hart. I don't have any details on how the Mission computers architecture works on a rafale, but I can assure you there is no software source code fix for it, it needs proper interfacing to read all the device block at the remote (pylon) terminals like it's resource blocks (remember fox 1 jamming on a f16 during final fight in independence day movie), foundation block (to provide active passive tracking), Digi/An -input block to to provide the targetting parameters, in some cases even setting up proximity switch (radar /laser) or self destruct modes.

 

[anant_s]

Hearing some buzz
++

• The price negotiations from Indian side has led to few points of change in terms of customization
• Indian side has decided to give up AshM integration of Harpoons and Brahmos for the time being. DA has instead offered Exocet which MOD is finally considering.
• The integration of Astra BVR may include potential hiccups. The present seeker is Russian in Origin and the new Ku Band seeker is suppose to be tested this year or next.
• This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
• The new customization package cost it seems has reduced to almost Euro 1.2-1.3 Bn down from earlier Euro 2 Bn
• The jets + weapons package is now negotiated at Euro 3.6 Bn
• The infrastructure, support, spares, training, TCO, etc etc all put together is approximated at around Euro 3.4 Bn
• So Total approx cost is around Euro (3.6+3.4+1.3) = Euro 8.3 Bn approx or Rs 59,800 Crs or USD 9 Bn
• There are scope for further cutting of approx ~ Euro 1.3 if a base is reduced from 2 to 1

The other aspect of negotiations seems to be

• DM MP wants DA to come down from earlier price quote of Euro 11 Bn to this final offer from Indian side
• MP says if DA comes down after seeing the scope of further business in MII and follow on 18 options, then the engine customization is a go ahead or else that may be dropped too.
• That may reduce the price by another Euro 0.7 Bn and save about Rs 5000 Crs.
• A single base of operations would indicate the final confirmation that its only 36 Jets nothing more.
• The repercussions seems to be that India may finally either freeze at just 36 with major focus to avoid even buying these 36 jets if DA does not comes to understand the joint view point of Indian and French Governments
• DM MP is a bit upset that inspite of making a provision of 50% upfront payment rather than making 15% upfront and next 35% over 4 years as per delivery and work completion, DA does not seems to appreciate that GOI is keen to facilitate them setting up MII part in offsets as well as giving them abundant support financially.
• DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
• Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.
• That would also mean GOI will invest for 2nd line in pvt sector themselves partly for their requirements of LCA in nos.
• India is not officially looking at Naval FGFA, hence IN will have to opt for either Mig29Ks or look for another fighter other than Rafale M/Rafale which is the first choice atm for IN's ambitious plan of CATOBAR and shore based patrolling roles for the future. (F35 will come in sureshot instead of Rafale M)

+++
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.

Now its true that DA being a private entity will think about profits but it does mean it will lose out an opportunity for the whole deal if DA does not support DM and PM vision for MII and affordability part.

If you understand the basic structure source says the original 108+18+63 has effectively become 90+36+45+18 = thats the structure for IAF and for IN its 60+30 = 90 structure in tranche 1. Tranche 2 based on Shore based patrol approval and take over from IAF roles will be much larger than this but will come in much later stage..

So DM MP is clear if DA does not budge and is looking at only corporate profit, it will lose everything asap.

Reads like a lot of penny pinching going on and a lot of inter linked complexities that affect the final price.
I'm not sure why government is not giving assurances to Dassault, that it wants to go beyond figure of 36. it looks like they are negotiating for a very small number trying to get in everything (barring ToT) that MMRCA envisaged.
Something got to give shortly.

That is not how missile integration works.
There is not source code for identifying missile like a driver for new hardware on system. It rather needs an adapter to provide read the bus address for the device which can be anything device, if the device is incapable of reading function blocks and resource blocks in the remote station. which can be a jammer, missile, targeting pod, pgm, ashm, flares, recce cameras etc. much like integrating a VFD or a transducer on a PLC. The fundamental logic remains the same. Remember R27ER was qualified on the mirages, so were derby on the MKI. much like a 1553 module where Bus Controller (BC) controlling multiple Remote Terminals (RT) all connected together by a data bus providing a single data path between the Bus Controller and all the associated Remote Terminals. Or in some cases a FFLD styled daisy network with device layer protection as seen in industrial protocols like foundation field bus and Multi drop Hart. I don't have any details on how the Mission computers architecture works on a rafale, but I can assure you there is no software source code fix for it, it needs proper interfacing to read all the device block at the remote (pylon) terminals like it's resource blocks (remember fox 1 jamming on a f16 during final fight in independence day movie), foundation block (to provide active passive tracking), Digi/An -input block to to provide the targetting parameters, in some cases even setting up proximity switch (radar /laser).

sir, can you explain in different words.
In industrial systems for example SCADA or PLCs, we have a processor that generates outputs based on input and logic schemes and the output then drives a final control element (relays, E/A converters, VFDs etc).
now in case of a fighter jet, suppose pilot wishes to fire a missile, the input could come from some sort of push button and the data is to be fed to onboard systems of missile. The radar and/or infrared targeting systems would then feed some data to electronic systems of missile, which would then get fired and follow some trajectory.
Now i suppose what you are saying above is that the data being fed to missile or armament is through a data bus with a piece of hardware in between (Adopter).
My doubt here are:

1. Do these buses have some standardized architecture or protocols that allow them to interact with all sorts of armaments or final control elements?
2. Do different armament require different type of input architecture, or in other words is there a universal design that allow complete adaptability?

Thanks!
anant

 

[sathya]

Hearing some buzz
++

• The price negotiations from Indian side has led to few points of change in terms of customization
• Indian side has decided to give up AshM integration of Harpoons and Brahmos for the time being. DA has instead offered Exocet which MOD is finally considering.
• The integration of Astra BVR may include potential hiccups. The present seeker is Russian in Origin and the new Ku Band seeker is suppose to be tested this year or next.
• This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
• The new customization package cost it seems has reduced to almost Euro 1.2-1.3 Bn down from earlier Euro 2 Bn
• The jets + weapons package is now negotiated at Euro 3.6 Bn
• The infrastructure, support, spares, training, TCO, etc etc all put together is approximated at around Euro 3.4 Bn
• So Total approx cost is around Euro (3.6+3.4+1.3) = Euro 8.3 Bn approx or Rs 59,800 Crs or USD 9 Bn
• There are scope for further cutting of approx ~ Euro 1.3 if a base is reduced from 2 to 1

The other aspect of negotiations seems to be

• DM MP wants DA to come down from earlier price quote of Euro 11 Bn to this final offer from Indian side
• MP says if DA comes down after seeing the scope of further business in MII and follow on 18 options, then the engine customization is a go ahead or else that may be dropped too.
• That may reduce the price by another Euro 0.7 Bn and save about Rs 5000 Crs.
• A single base of operations would indicate the final confirmation that its only 36 Jets nothing more.
• The repercussions seems to be that India may finally either freeze at just 36 with major focus to avoid even buying these 36 jets if DA does not comes to understand the joint view point of Indian and French Governments
• DM MP is a bit upset that inspite of making a provision of 50% upfront payment rather than making 15% upfront and next 35% over 4 years as per delivery and work completion, DA does not seems to appreciate that GOI is keen to facilitate them setting up MII part in offsets as well as giving them abundant support financially.
• DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
• Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.
• That would also mean GOI will invest for 2nd line in pvt sector themselves partly for their requirements of LCA in nos.
• India is not officially looking at Naval FGFA, hence IN will have to opt for either Mig29Ks or look for another fighter other than Rafale M/Rafale which is the first choice atm for IN's ambitious plan of CATOBAR and shore based patrolling roles for the future. (F35 will come in sureshot instead of Rafale M)

+++
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.

Now its true that DA being a private entity will think about profits but it does mean it will lose out an opportunity for the whole deal if DA does not support DM and PM vision for MII and affordability part.

If you understand the basic structure source says the original 108+18+63 has effectively become 90+36+45+18 = thats the structure for IAF and for IN its 60+30 = 90 structure in tranche 1. Tranche 2 based on Shore based patrol approval and take over from IAF roles will be much larger than this but will come in much later stage..

So DM MP is clear if DA does not budge and is looking at only corporate profit, it will lose everything asap.

It looks like Harpoon will definitely get integrated in N LCA
Since not possible in Russian platforms
N LCA mk2 will replace N jaguars

 

[PARIKRAMA]

That is not how missile integration works.
There is no source code for identifying missile like a driver for new hardware on system. It rather needs an adapter to read the bus address for the device which can be any device, if the mission computer is incapable of reading function blocks and resource blocks in the remote station. which can be a jammer, missile, targeting pod, pgm, ashm, flares, recce cameras etc. much like integrating a VFD or a transducer on a PLC. The fundamental logic remains the same. Remember R27ER was qualified on the mirages, so were derby on the MKI. much like a 1553 module where Bus Controller (BC) controlling multiple Remote Terminals (RT) all connected together by a data bus providing a single data path between the Bus Controller and all the associated Remote Terminals. Or in some cases a FFLD styled daisy chained network with device layer protection as seen in industrial protocols like foundation field bus and Multi drop Hart. I don't have any details on how the Mission computers architecture works on a rafale, but I can assure you there is no software source code fix for it, it needs proper interfacing to read all the device block at the remote (pylon) terminals like it's resource blocks (remember fox 1 jamming on a f16 during final fight in independence day movie), foundation block (to provide active passive tracking), Digi/An -input block to to provide the targetting parameters, in some cases even setting up proximity switch (radar /laser) or self destruct modes.

What you said is correct Sir, so i had enquired with source. He says and i quote that present seeker of Astra is actually R77 seeker. The adapter led bus transfer to enable mission computer to enable control of the Astra BVR also needs signalling and providing information for active and passive control. ATM, this integration is being handled via Russian help and thus, Su 30MKI was chosen for Astra testing (of course due to heavy size of MKI and effect of Gs on Pylon carrying Astra also)

He also says the Indian seeker will be the one which will enable a full control and enabling ourselves to integrate it with Elta Radars for LCA as well as RBE 2 AESA radar. IF we know the exact address of the device functions, then the adapter integration is easy.

Its still being negotiated and perhaps will be worked over by Dassault. But integration solution will require time with a pylon modification (minor) and flight certification.

 

[ultron]

JF-17 is better. JF-17 has DSI. Rafale does not have DSI.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Round and round we go, this is just getting absurd. There is a failure of leadership on both sides, it's like the blind leading the blind and by that I mean the bureaucrats on both sides. I fail to see this clarity that the DM sees, it seems like the Indian side keeps moving the goal posts, one moment the exact configuration proposed in the MMRCA is being asked for now it is F3+, then they are asking for engine modifications and on and on.

This would all be fun and understandable if the IAF wasn't on the cusp of losing 1/3rd of its force in the next 5-7 years with no credible action plan to speak of. There is no urgency being shown nor any appreciation of the fact this is on the brink of an emergency situation. The IAF is still flyin 40+ years old airframes awaiting the polticans to pull the thumbs from their backsides but the successors are no better and simply lost chasing their tails.

• DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.

• Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.

This addresses nothing. The SQN depletion will continue as more MKIs can only be produced once existing orders are complete that will be in 2019 at the earliest- so the first new MKI would be in service by 2020 at the earliest whilst the IAF began standing down MiG-21/27 SQNs in 2014 itself. And you can't count on an entirely new product like the LCA, it is yet to enter mass production- many hard days and troubles still lay in store for that project.

Addtionally, leaving aside the compelte failure of this "plan b" to actually offer a credible prescription to the mess the IAF finds itself in from a numerical perspective, what is perhaps more chilling is this alternate plan offers NOTHING to address the operational gap a "Hi-lo" mix would create. The Mirage 2000s and much of the Jaguar fleet are gone in 15 years, how will the IAF's deep penetration strike requirements be met? The MKI and LCA are in no way able to handle this task.

And where is the media in all this asking these troubling questions? A complete lack of any sort of scrutiny of these decsions being made behind closed doors is undermining India's national security but it seems everyone is sleep walking into this mess.

Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.

MP is out of his depth, that much is apparent. He has no exposure to defence, he has little industrial expereince and he is even a novice as a federal/union cabinet minister. He simply doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what hs should be doing, his continued misleading comments and failure to abide by a single of his own timelines is evidence of this. Everything from DPP to CDS he has promised is nowhere to be seen despite him promising it months ago to be implmented within "weeks".


What will be the net result? The IAF's force continues to contract- machines that should have been out of service decades ago will be forced to soldier on compelling more young men (and now women) to put their lives at risk the longer this farce goes on but at the same time spending less hours in the air in an attempt to mitigate the risks and eek out yet more life from these relics. So the IAF's combat capabilties will be hit all around- it has less aircraft to put in the air, the ones you do have are junk and being flown by less expereinced pilots. Who needs enemies when you have "leaders" such as this?



“Nowhere have I seen such Lions led by such Lambs.”-General Max von Gallwitz


@anant_s @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Guynextdoor2 @Levina @Parul @IndoUS @Koovie @ranjeet @Star Wars @arp2041 @mkb95 @Dandpatta @danish_vij

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i think we are doing two things here.

• Firstly we are playing a game for domestic audience which show every effort has been made and the price negotiated is the best we could have ever got.
  • This holds true as domestic audiences do not understand that a Rafale fully loaded vs a Super MKI fully loaded with comparable radars and specs will be costing similar upfront
  • The standard training, bases, spares etc will be directly divided by "analysts/experts/journalists" making the Rafale double the cost straight as this whole pack will be equal to the pack of fully loaded rafale cost.
  • Customization part will be unwrapped slowly and again our experts will divide it by 36 rather than whole fleet logic.
  • The true maruti advt of "kitna deti hai" or "how much it gives" for a mileage based USP selling mentality needs appeasement
  • Also BJP/NDA themselves wants to insulate from any political backlash
• Secondly, a cost wise comparison shows that an assembly line in India will cost around Euro 3 Bn or USD 3.25 Bn.
  • This implies if you add on few more goodies which needs localisation upfront, and pour in another Euro 1 Bn this gives you a significant minimum figure of Euro 3+1=4 Bn
  • Now with offsets at 50% conservatively the deal has to be greater than Euro 8 Bn at any time.
  • So for MII to be success the basic back of hand calculations shows this figure anyhow
  • But customization makes sense only when you order for a sufficient numbers to divide the cost over your fleet of acquisition.
  • An engine customization is a sure way of saying the requirement is much larger.
  • And so is the rest of the package

The casualty is of course IAF who is suffering due to last decade plus loss over not having a vision and proper follow up mechanism.

@Abingdonboy
DM MP cannot be blamed alone. If you see what i wrote just above, even he has to safeguard PM NaMo from any scandals from within his own party rather than opposition who will anyway go up in arms when we sign and formalise Rafale deal.

Its imperative that MII has to come or else Congress/UPA would paint the whole country with expert analysts + Bharat Karnad and others to show MMRCA was far better (inspite of all negatives and the truth) and the gullible Indian countrymen will accept it without understanding anything or even logically thinking whats the reality.

Of course, IAF is going to suffer. The MKI as a solution to me is the most idiotic proposition i have ever heard from the very beginning. Very few people know that as compared to sanctioned ratio of 1.25, the pilot to fighter ratio is 0.81 as per Parliamentary standing committee report as of 2015. The addition of 100 odd twin seaters fighter jet implies a need of 250 such pilots which can very well manage 200+ single seat fighter jet. So what DM MP said as Plan B is not logical as we are already first trying to shore up the numbers of pilot ratio from 0.81 to 1.25. Moreover with 100 odd LCA coming in, such a large new 100 twin seater fighter jet effectively will either led to delays in forming operational squadrons in proper number or one of the program production has to be delayed in order to accommodate. One lucky part is a lot of retirement of old jets which will make some good numbers of pilots free but that does not change the fact that ratio is still less than 1.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Firstly we are playing a game for domestic audience which show every effort has been made and the price negotiated is the best we could have ever got.

• This holds true as domestic audiences do not understand that a Rafale fully loaded vs a Super MKI fully loaded with comparable radars and specs will be costing similar upfront
• The standard training, bases, spares etc will be directly divided by "analysts/experts/journalists" making the Rafale double the cost straight as this whole pack will be equal to the pack of fully loaded rafale cost.
• Customization part will be unwrapped slowly and again our experts will divide it by 36 rather than whole fleet logic.
• The true maruti advt of "kitna deti hai" or "how much it gives" for a mileage based USP selling mentality needs appeasement
• Also BJP/NDA themselves wants to insulate from any political backlash

DM MP cannot be blamed alone. If you see what i wrote just above, even he has to safeguard PM NaMo from any scandals from within his own party rather than opposition who will anyway go up in arms when we sign and formalise Rafale deal.

Its imperative that MII has to come or else Congress/UPA would paint the whole country with expert analysts + Bharat Karnad and others to show MMRCA was far better (inspite of all negatives and the truth) and the gullible Indian countrymen will accept it without understanding anything or even logically thinking whats the reality.

Much of the poltical costs for the NDA/BJP are entirely self-inflicted. Their policy of keeping the public in the dark about deal after deal and effectively saying "trust us" only pays off if they are able to come up with a credible solution at the end of it all. Right now, I think the GoI is setting themselves up for a COLLOSSAL failure- 10+ months down the drain with nothing to show for it. The opposition that has been relatively tame on this issue could rightly say they left office with a more creidble soltuion (MMRCA) on the table than the nonsense this GoI seems to be failing to accomplish.

If this self-styled "action" government is unable to make any progress on a pure govt-govt deal then I have to seriosuly question everyone involved and I'll start at the very top- the PM and DM. They are big on promises but very poor in backing up their lofty words with tanigble action. So many defence deals are still pending, the Rafale is just one of them, all that has happened is the GoI has tried to be be clever and cleared the stoppage being at the DAC stage and moved it down the line to the Fin Min and CCS. The net result being the same of course but it will take a few more years for the idiots in the media to wake up to this reality.

• But customization makes sense only when you order for a sufficient numbers to divide the cost over your fleet of acquisition.

• An engine customization is a sure way of saying the requirement is much larger.

• And so is the rest of the package

Bro, NO WAY are DA going to do any signifcant customizations for a fleet of 36. If it is to be 36 they will be as off the shelf as possible (with some Indian IFFs and such but nothing major).

The casualty is of course IAF whose is suffering due to last decade plus loss over not having a vision and proper follow up mechanism.

It's one thing to appreciate the problem but when no solutions are forthcoming it is beyond frustrating.

Of course, IAF is going to suffer. The MKI as a solution to me is the most idiotic proposition i have ever heard from the very beginning. Very few people know that as compared to sanctioned ratio of 1.25, the pilot to fighter ratio is 0.81 as per Parliamentary standing committee report as of 2015. The addition of 100 odd twin seaters fighter jet implies a need of 250 such pilots which can very well manage 200+ single seat fighter jet.

A very good point my friend and one I had failed to consider. So on all levels the MKI as a "plan b" for the MMRCA is a preposterous idea on every conceviable level, and this is EXACTLY what the IAF said about 3/4 years ago now!

Let's also not forget that even though you will induct more airframes (if plan b is really executed), the problem of availability will remain. The most the OEM (Sukhoi) can promise is 75%, DA on the other hand are willing to guarentee at least 85% fleet availability- perhaps even more.

This is before we even factor in all of the intangible benefits of the Rafale buy over simply going for more MKIs/LCA ie the quantum leap that would be seen in the maintaince command's abilities as a result of the Rafale getting into service. To this day Russia is still in a regressive quality control and servicability mindset and the Europeans/West are simply lightyears ahead.


Is this MP's idea of a bluff? If so he is exceptionally bad at this game.



@PARIKRAMA this has evolved from a " we will buy 36 now and see what comes along in terms of MII later" into "150+ Rafales with MII framework established or 0 (not even the flyaways) Rafales". It's all or nothing.


I can't help but feel that this GoI has bitten off more than they can chew and are in too deep with trying to get all of the benefits of the MMRCA but through an alternate route and the complexity of this task has simply overwhelmed them. There was a reason it took the combined efforts of the MoD/industry/IAF to come up with the orginal MMRCA framework a solid 1-2 years. This GoI/MoD has been trying to do the same on the fly and they are simply lost (IMHO), they tried to be too clever but it is simply backfiring. At least the MMRCA framework was exceptionally clear and accesible, what the GoI/MoD is now doing is nothing but opaque and convoluted.

 

[Nilgiri]

Thanks for the great updates @PARIKRAMA

 

[Audio]

................

in one of the backpages you mentioned Neuron tech transfer, anything new on this?

 

[Mitro]

Son of a gun

 

[MilSpec]

1. Do these buses have some standardized architecture or protocols that allow them to interact with all sorts of armaments or final control elements?
2. Do different armament require different type of input architecture, or in other words is there a universal design that allow complete adaptability?

Thanks!
anant

Do these buses have some standardized architecture or protocols that allow them to interact with all sorts of armaments or final control elements?

So do some don't (1553 is quite common now). Comm protocols are are usually proprietary, but the the Missions computer doesn't need to be. That is where your comm adapters come in. Linke in your industrail automn You can run modbus, flex i/o, and foundation field bus devices on the on the same system given you have the correct prosoft adapters or now even labview subroutines.. Thus you can run AIM sidwinders on Mig21's and derby / Pythons on harriers and even a Meteor Ramjet on a MKI.




Do different armament require different type of input architecture, or in other words is there a universal design that allow complete adaptability

At the end of the day it's all 4-20ma, system to me. so chandramukhi ho ya paro ki fark painda hai yaro. Issue is mostly with guidance system resource blocks, some newer missiles have some cool internal calibrations and diagnostics which are lost when you go to a comm adapter.