Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Dash]

I sort of infer from your answer that they are from your favoured side, Dash?
If so, know that I'm not attacking it in any way if so. These things are normal in that field.
I'm just voicing that personally I'm computing it as far as interference in our fave deal.

Not being allowed to vote for either, my opinion carries no further.

Take care, Tay.

Sir, My favoured side doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. I speak only after what I have "inferred" from the attitude of the above 2 from the whole game

Its a logjam between IAF and GOI honestly. If you ask me, personally I can vouch that MOD and PMO are fighting against all odds towards an agenda which has a military,international political and domestic capability angle to it. According to my observation and I am sure any level headed person will agree that we have long delayed later two while addressing the former one and we (read as IAF) wants to proceed in that direction.
The friction that is happening is a result of many factors for which neither of them is to blame. However it is my understanding that only addressing one is no solution to this issue and somewhere it is supposed to start and I am happy that it has started. We would be uncomfortable and ask questions but ultimately it will be for a greater good.

And for the last line of yours, the world has moved from being transactional to personalization in the age of internet, so you have your vote in this global village whether you are allowed or not.

 

[Taygibay]

Now see Dash my food fellow, we have common ground to infer from after all it seems!

Parrikar is then acting IAF spokesman and Modi on foreign policy; the former cares for now
and the latter for the future. Fine, that's another part of politics that involves allies competing.
It all points to reasons why the two have been emitting out-of-phase information waves.

As for that pair being friends since you graciously invited me to the discussion, I have no doubt
that they are political chums but would either help the other hide the corpse? Best friends do!


All the best to you and yours, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It cant be, simple and I certainly don't want to prescribe anything to a depleting force level by buying anything and everything in the market that bankrupts us. In one hand we don't want to be called as the largest arms importer and on the other we want to eat grass, still buy assuming we will need a 42 squadron operational squadron!
The reasons are simple yet ground breaking in nature.

Lol, this again? By what logic will any number of Rafales/FGFA bankrupt India? 10% of the contract paid up front and a pay back period of at least 10 years, by the time India finishes paying for the Rafale it will be the 3rd largest economy in the world with a >$120BN/year defence budget. The Net Present Value of this deal is actually comparably minimal given India's expected future cash flows.

The most absurd part of all this is that this keeps getting repeated but year in year out the Military is RETURNING billions in unspent funds to the MoD but the notion that India can't afford such things remains.

https://defence.pk/threads/rs-37-00...et-remains-underutilized.420690/#post-8131046


India has enough money to pay for 150+ Rafales and 150 FGFAs without such purchases affecting any other program.

1. We surely don't have the belly to buy and maintain a foreign fleet of 126 Rafale + 200 FGFA

Haha, but India can afford to operate 300+ MKIs with FAR higher life cycle costs? The Rafales (like almost all Western products) are far more efficent than their Russian counter parts and any intial premium paid will be more than offset from life cycle cost savings. Everytime the IAF flies their Rafales they would be saving money vis a vis their MKIs (the MKI's cost >$20,000 per flight hour, the Rafale is around $14,000). The MKIs also go through spares like nobody's buisness.

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @MilSpec

 

[MilSpec]

Lol, this again? By what logic will any number of Rafales/FGFA bankrupt India? 10% of the contract paid up front and a pay back period of at least 10 years, by the time India finishes paying for the Rafale it will be the 3rd largest economy in the world with a >$120BN/year defence budget. The Net Present Value of this deal is actually comparably minimal given India's expected future cash flows.

The most absurd part of all this is that this keeps getting repeated but year in year out the Military is RETURNING billions in unspent funds to the MoD but the notion that India can't afford such things remains.

https://defence.pk/threads/rs-37-000-crore-of-defence-ministry’s-modernization-budget-remains-underutilized.420690/#post-8131046


India has enough money to pay for 150+ Rafales and 150 FGFAs without such purchases affecting any other program.



Haha, but India can afford to operate 300+ MKIs with FAR higher life cycle costs? The Rafales (like almost all Western products) are far more efficent than their Russian counter parts and any intial premium paid will be more than offset from life cycle cost savings. Everytime the IAF flies their Rafales they would be saving money vis a vis their MKIs (the MKI's cost >$20,000 per flight hour, the Rafale is around $14,000). The MKIs also go through spares like nobody's buisness.

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @MilSpec

sure. I have no problem in paying as long as we know what 250 million/ ac brings to the table. especially when the fly away cost is around 105 mil, what does that additional 145 million consist of? 145 million at 20k/hr of op cost brings more than 7250 hrs of flight time, as I mentioned somewhere, 1500 hrs is 10 to 14 years on a MKI, imagine how many years is 7250 hrs of flight time.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

sure. I have no problem in paying as long as we know what 250 million/ ac brings to the table. especially when the fly away cost is around 105 mil, what does that additional 145 million consist of? 145 million at 20k/hr of op cost brings more than 7250 hrs of flight time, as I mentioned somewhere, 1500 hrs is 10 to 14 years on a MKI, imagine how many years is 7250 hrs of flight time.

Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?

Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.

 

[Abingdonboy]

sure. I have no problem in paying as long as we know what 250 million/ ac brings to the table. especially when the fly away cost is around 105 mil, what does that additional 145 million consist of? 145 million at 20k/hr of op cost brings more than 7250 hrs of flight time, as I mentioned somewhere, 1500 hrs is 10 to 14 years on a MKI, imagine how many years is 7250 hrs of flight time.

This logic only makes sense if the true figure of the Rafale really is is $250 million- which I simply don't beleive whatsoever sir. There is far too much misinformation on this subject as it stands, projections range from $108 million to $333 million!

 

[MilSpec]

Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?

Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.

You know my views on the subject, Spinelessness of the people and there leaders aside, why should my pilots suffer, my mandate is to give them the best platform we can afford to give them a fighting chance in case they ever need one.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?

Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.

The ONLY positive I can say is that they at least make the Pakistanis/Chinese think twice before conventionally waging war with India, that is about their only use.

Other than that, they are fancy display machines in the eyes of the Indian leadership.

 

[MilSpec]

This logic only makes sense if the true figure of the Rafale really is is $250 million- which I simply don't beleive whatsoever sir. There is far too much misinformation on this subject as it stands, projections range from $108 million to $333 million!

36 platforms for 9 billion? If I am not mistaken that is 250 million/ ac (no "sir" thing please)

 

[Abingdonboy]

36 platforms for 9 billion? If I am not mistakes that is 250 million/ ac

Indeed, but where did this $9 billion figure appear from? In the past few weeks I have seen 36 jets for $7BN-12BN and thus the derived unit cost has vaired signifcantly within the range I have stated. I won't cast judgement until I hear an offical line on the project cost from the Indian Govt.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

The ONLY positive I can say is that they at least make the Pakistanis/Chinese think twice before conventionally waging war with India, that is about their only use.

Other than that, they are fancy display machines in the eyes of the Indian leadership views them.

True. But I think they don't take them very seriously either.

The weapons, the training of the crew is fine. But if any electrical machine is never given any power, they just remain show-pieces for unltra nationalist kids to beat their own chests in pride. They serve no real purpose.

 

[Abingdonboy]

True. But I think they don't take them very seriously either.

Yup, because in the Indian leadership ( no matter what their rhetoric or poltical persuasion) they have known qualities- impotency, appeasment, ignorance and cowardice. Forget China and Pakistan, even Nepal, the Maldives and Sri Lankans don't fear India and think they can push it around.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?

Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.

I agree with you as our ultimate weapons of mass destruction is DOSSIERs

We can bomb any country across the world with so much quantity of dossiers that it's sheer weight coupled with falling from high altitude can act as bunker buster bomb. Best part is it leaves no mushroom cloud but its effect is far far lethal.

The country who suffers such bombardment has to undertake a massive clean up to clear such dossiers and casualties sufferred primarily out of laughing too long after seeing dossiers in turn impacts the nation and its economy.

Those dossiers actually cripples a nation.

Now why do we need jets? Well to carry tonnes of dossiers.. Come on .. Common sense ... Different jets for different roles to deliver dossiers..

You need to learn this quick.. Or else you can be a victim of dossier bombings too.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I agree with you as our ultimate weapons of mass destruction is DOSSIERs

We can bomb any country across the world with so much quantity of dossiers that it's sheer weight coupled with falling from high altitude can act as bunker buster bomb. Best part is it leaves no mushroom cloud but its effect is far far lethal.

The country who suffers such bombardment has to undertake a massive clean up to clear such dossiers and casualties sufferred primarily out of laughing too long after seeing dossiers in turn impacts the nation and its economy.

Those dossiers actually cripples a nation.

Now why do we need jets? Well to carry tonnes of dossiers.. Come on .. Common sense ... Different jets for different roles to deliver dossiers..

You need to learn this quick.. Or else you can be a victim of dossier bombings too.

The sad part is how this is meant to satire but it is basically the reality. Think about how much the world respects Israel- a nation whose entire population is less than a tier-2 city in India, this is because Israel has consistently shown it will stand up for itself when required to do so.

On the other hand, a nation of 1.3 billion people is constantly on its knees and a laughing stock on the global stage where anyone from Nepal, BD, Pakistan, China, Mynamar, Sri Lanka, Maldives and even Italy thinks they can push it around- for good reason, they normally can.

@Levina @MilSpec @Star Wars @ranjeet @arp2041 @Unknowncommando @mkb95 @Parul @nair @Bang Galore @Guynextdoor2 @anant_s

 

[Dash]

Lol, this again? By what logic will any number of Rafales/FGFA bankrupt India? 10% of the contract paid up front and a pay back period of at least 10 years

That bold part sounds very fanboyish...There are 2 scenarios here.
1. Buy the plane @ $250 million with full weapons package with training, spares and support included, just like the Emiratis are doing.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/mideast-africa/2016/01/23/uae-eyes-moving-mirage-fighters-iraqs-kurdish-areas-procuring-rafales/79108590/

The UAE source stated that the expected cost of each aircraft is expected to be around $250 million for a total cost of $15 billion

According to this source

To facilitate the Rafale deal, the government has taken over the 'airco' cost of training, maintenance support and other military-provided services to reduce the cost for the UAE

In a way it makes me think, that the $ 250 million which UAE is paying, includes a sweetener provided by French govt which has helped them get the costs brought down by 10%.

Now that's without any offset/MII, additional fittings and re-engineering that would go into IAF's deal. Makes the cost an astronomical $300 million.
That's the cost of our "Requirement" and not the "Plane" is people need to realize and scaling it upto 126 fighters or more will further escalate the cost. Although the offset value remains the same, but the amount will be higher.
Looking at what we need is what we are paying for. I for once will not have a second thought to squeeze this deal than making it a white elephant for me. To me, value buying is more important than, just satisfying my ego..

by the time India finishes paying for the Rafale it will be the 3rd largest economy

That's pure hypothetical and only if we are short-sighted then will overlook its present over a fantasized future. Thinking let me buy a Lada today assuming I will be rich in future.

Military is RETURNING billions in unspent funds to the MoD but the notion that India can't afford such things remains.

IA has about 27% share in returning the money. Not the IAF or the IN. Top it up with new planning commission burden with OROP and more headache for liquid availability for capital expenditure and you realise this is not a surplus money in any term.

India has enough money to pay for 150+ Rafales and 150 FGFAs without such purchases affecting any other program

No. It doesn't...For such undervalued expenditures. I know what you will say next. The answer is add L.C.A. Some quality and more quantity.

Now see Dash my food fellow, we have common ground to infer from after all it seems!

Parrikar is then acting IAF spokesman and Modi on foreign policy; the former cares for now
and the latter for the future. Fine, that's another part of politics that involves allies competing.
It all points to reasons why the two have been emitting out-of-phase information waves.

As for that pair being friends since you graciously invited me to the discussion, I have no doubt
that they are political chums but would either help the other hide the corpse? Best friends do!


All the best to you and yours, Tay.

Again, you got it somewhat wrong. IAF v/s MOD and MOS...Our DefMin has become a sandwitch but he is doing exceptionally good so far. Its the IAF which has got its priorities mixed for quite sometime but that requires another thread for any justification or explanation.

Edit:- @PARIKRAMA Do me a favour. I have read somewhere that we have to pay 10% advance and 50% of the value in some year. Can you confirm this or dig up some article about if true.