Dassault deal far away, IAF begins fleet upgrade

[Dillinger]

Faced with the reality that the deal to buy 126 new fighters from France’s Dassault Aviation will not be inked for the next few months and could possibly be delayed till the next government is in saddle in May next year, the Indian Air Force has begun upgrading a major chunk of its fleet of fighters.

The IAF faces a crisis as the key IAS official handling the Dassault Aviation purchase in the Ministry of Defence died of an heart attack a couple of weeks ago. The process is complex and the new appointee may take a few months to understand the matter that relates to purchase of 125 twin-engine Rafale planes at the cost of $15 billion (approx Rs 90,000 crore at today’s valuation). Moreover, the ongoing issue of localisation of production is yet to be sorted out.

As of now, the IAF is upgrading some 210 fighter jets in its fleet to meet the challenges and equip the planes with the gadgetry of today’s war fighting scenario. The upgrades will be on the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar, all purchased in the 1980s from France, Russia and the UK, respectively.

The next phase will be to upgrade the older lot of Sukhoi-30 MKI planes to equip them with latest radars like the ‘X-band’ allowing a simultaneous track on 30 aerial targets and engage at least six of them. Also the radar signature will be reduced and it will have a new longer range missiles.

The upgrade was anyway needed to bring the planes in tune with latest technology, but the slow place on deciding on the purchase of 126 Rafale has added a tinge of urgency. The IAF Chief had said on October 4: “Negotiations are still on. I cannot place a timeline on when the deal will be signed…The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Dassault are in talks and hope they come with an agreement”.

Besides this, starting next year, three different versions of the MiG 21 planes are to be phased out. Also the MiG 27, another Soviet-era plane used by the IAF, will be phased out. These two planes form the lowest layer of IAF fighter jets in terms of technology. The MiG 29, the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar are the second layer while Sukhoi-30 MKI is the frontline top-layer.

The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons (some 16 to 18 planes in each) but it has just 33. The 34th, a Sukhoi-30-MKI squadron, is being raised at Sirsa in Haryana.

The upgrades will make the IAF carry on with the older planes for at least 15 more years. The MiG 29 fleet of 62 twin-engined planes inducted in the mid 1980s is being upgraded at a cost of $964 million. The upgrade will convert these planes into multi-role fighters, a new avionics suite, latest radars. Similarly the fleet of 51 Mirage-2000 planes is being upgraded under a $2.4 billion contract by Dassault Aviation, its manufacturer. This will also have a new radar, a night vision compatible digital cockpit, helmet-mounted sights and new missiles.

Fitness exercise

* The upgrades will be on the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar, all purchased in the 1980s from France, Russia and the UK, respectively.

* The next phase will be to upgrade the older lot of Sukhoi-30 MKI planes to equip them with latest radars like the ‘X-band’ allowing a simultaneous track on 30 aerial targets

* The Jaguars, around 100 with the IAF, called the ‘deep penetration strike aircraft’, will get a new engine and weapons delivery system

Dassault deal far away, IAF begins fleet upgrade | idrw.org

An excerpt from the above article-

"* The next phase will be to upgrade the older lot of Sukhoi-30 MKI planes to equip them with latest radars like the ‘X-band’ allowing a simultaneous track on 30 aerial targets"



The author of the above piece would be glad to know that ALL AC FCRs operate in the X-band. Yes ladies and gentlemen, the MKI is already equipped with the "X-band".

For the love of GOD- STOP QUOTING/REFERENCING IDRW!

 

[gslv mk3]

those r better then yr a/c atleast, this thread even shows that. Plus i dont think yr an IAF spokesman.

yeah right....even a PAF F 6 would be better than IAF Su 30 MKI according to you..

 

[Storm Force]

Just upgrade 200 jaguar mirage2000 and mig29

We will have 270 Su30mki by 2018...

Then concentrate completely on tejas lca get the 40 service double quicker.....and mk2 get help to get this in hoc get help from general dynamics and Israeli assistance...

 

[sancho]

For the love of GOD- STOP QUOTING/REFERENCING IDRW!

Can't agree more!

Just upgrade 200 jaguar mirage2000 and mig29

Forget about Jaguar upgrade and sell as much as possible, kick N-LCA to ease MK2 development without IN requirements, add 1 or 2 squads of Russian Pak Fa versions, let Dassault do the M2K upgrade and fix Rafale deal ASAP. That would be my choice!

 

[Dillinger]

Just upgrade 200 jaguar mirage2000 and mig29

We will have 270 Su30mki by 2018...

Then concentrate completely on tejas lca get the 40 service double quicker.....and mk2 get help to get this in hoc get help from general dynamics and Israeli assistance...

Not possible, till the Tejas goes through the required hoops stop hoping for it to magically appear on the scene. As of now the IOC has not been achieved no matter what A.K. Antony feels like spewing- that's that. For which the ADA and MoD will have to get their act together, which at the moment they are not willing to do. Antony can keep harping about "IOC-1" but without meeting the requirements which actually dictate the granting of said IOC (which happens to constitute a well charted progression with its own SOPs) its granting ("IOC-1") will remain an exercise in semantics.

Wait and watch as ADA tries to squeeze itself through narrower crevices.

The Jag (Darin-3), Mig-29 (UPG) and Mirages (2005Mk2) are already undergoing upgrades.

 

[Mike_Brando]

@Dillinger bhai can you please provide the estimated price of a SU-35S aircraft(i tried a lot of searching in the internet but failed to get any)

 

[Destro]

 

[kurup]

This makes more sense than anything you write .

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger bhai can you please provide the estimated price of a SU-35S aircraft(i tried a lot of searching in the internet but failed to get any)

Why, what would be the point when the Super MKI is far better?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Why, what would be the point when the Super MKI is far better?

can some one tell what is differnt between MKi & super sukoi MKI MLU and what are there respective costs and how much differnt oit is from specs of rafale and so on

 

[Dillinger]

can some one tell what is differnt between MKi & super sukoi MKI MLU and what are there respective costs and how much differnt oit is from specs of rafale and so on

No idea about cost of upgrade per unit. Here is the deal, what do we want to use the MKI for? What are its baseline capabilities and what do we want to do with them in the future. Well, its a heavy platform- this means large internal fuel fraction (large CR), good real-estate for additions (so we have a new EW suite for the MKI MLU) and obviously an appreciable payload.

Now at the moment we are looking for better battle-space awareness and while AEW&Cs go a long way towards that we still need to move further ahead with AC FCR- ergo an AESA (for interleaved operations, LPI, beam agility which allows far more roust detection and poking out specific "hits on the radar" that one might end up glossing over in a PESA or mechanically steered array). As such the MKI's MLU is a capability leap bringing it to the level where we need it in terms of heavy MRCA capabilities.

Now we come to the Rafale, what we want in the MMRCA is a platform that can replicate the above capabilities with a comparatively lighter logistical footprint, which is imminently survivable and brings with it tremendous data fusion through the MDPU+AESA+SPECTRA combo, a self contained and sufficient platform that can then go and do some heavy lifting within a smaller CR/AO with a high tempo/sortie rate and lower pressure on the logistical network. The same reason that the Chinese will be bringing in the J-10s into the Chengdu MraF to operate with the Sukhoi clones.

For eg. when MKIs with internal EW, escort jamming and FDF sensors go in harms way to kick the door in the Rafale will follow with a masterful self protection suite and heavy load to hit C4I and logistical targets from stand-off distances- execute RTB- and then be off in the air again to do it all over again as the MKIs prep for the next Air dominance/DEAD/SEAD op or provide escort if required. What you then have is operational flexibility and capabilities, this then allows to fulfill the sine qua non of all warfare- attempting to force the opponent to operate under your conditions while simultaneously denying him the privilege to set the tempo.

 

[PoKeMon]

So the existing indian fleet is not good enough!!!!!

LOL the reality strikes.

Where are saner pakistanis? What you did to them?

 

[GURU DUTT]

No idea about cost of upgrade per unit. Here is the deal, what do we want to use the MKI for? What are its baseline capabilities and what do we want to do with them in the future. Well, its a heavy platform- this means large internal fuel fraction (large CR), good real-estate for additions (so we have a new EW suite for the MKI MLU) and obviously an appreciable payload.

Now at the moment we are looking for better battle-space awareness and while AEW&Cs go a long way towards that we still need to move further ahead with AC FCR- ergo an AESA (for interleaved operations, LPI, beam agility which allows far more roust detection and poking out specific "hits on the radar" that one might end up glossing over in a PESA or mechanically steered array). As such the MKI's MLU is a capability leap bringing it to the level where we need it in terms of heavy MRCA capabilities.

Now we come to the Rafale, what we want in the MMRCA is a platform that can replicate the above capabilities with a comparatively lighter logistical footprint, which is imminently survivable and brings with is tremendous data fusion through the MDPU+AESA+SPECTRA combo, a self contained and sufficient platform that can then go and do some heavy lifting within a smaller CR/AO with a high tempo/sortie rate and lower pressure on the logistical network. The same reason that the Chinese will be bringing in the J-10s into the Chengdu MraF to operate with the Sukhoi clones.

For eg. when MKIs with internal EW, escort jamming and FDF sensors goes in to kick the door in the Rafale will follow with a masterful self protection suite and heavy load to hit C4I and logistical targets from stand-off distances- execute RTB- and then be off in the air again to do it all over again as the MKIs prep for the next Air dominance/DEAD/SEAD/ op or provide escort if required. What you then have is operational flexibility and capabilities, this then allows to fulfill the sine qua non of all warfare- attempting to force the opponent to operate under your conditions while simultaneously denying him the privilege to set the tempo.

so in short you mean that rafale will be as leathel as sukoi but will have much better situationl awerness and survivability that MKI/super mki and will /can be used a a gap opner from where MKI punches thru its brute force ...fair enof but what im worried about is the costs as compared to say F18 E/F and there growler adition cant we have a squad of growler to do the same to spearhead in every such mission followed by F18 E/F & MKI combo and since we have already made a deal with FGFA isnt that a better option to do the same cause if the deal is signed even by the 2013 year end still the first rafales might come jast as the first FGFAs start to trickkllle in ....

 

[Dillinger]

so in short you mean that rafale will be as leathel as sukoi but will have much better situationl awerness and survivability that MKI/super mki and will /can be used a a gap opner from where MKI punches thru its brute force ...fair enof but what im worried about is the costs as compared to say F18 E/F and there growler adition cant we have a squad of growler to do the same to spearhead in every such mission followed by F18 E/F & MKI combo and since we have already made a deal with FGFA isnt that a better option to do the same cause if the deal is signed even by the 2013 year end still the first rafales might come jast as the first FGFAs start to trickkllle in ....

See its not as capable as the MKI simply because it does not have the legs, within its prospective AO (as dictated by its CR) it can do what the MKI can do. There is a marked difference between being as useful as the MKI and my aforementioned clarification. So now it will not open the gaps as such, considering that that is the job of the AC going in for SEAD/DEAD for which the MKI will score better. At the moment, using the legs on the MKI and multiple axes of ingress the Pakistani ADGE can be reasonable compromised IF we are willing to incur a certain quantum of casualties.


As for the article at hand- its an IDRW piece which means its unqualified $HIT! The fleet upgrade started in its planning phase even BEFORE the Rafale was short listed- why? Because we need to maintain air-superiority in the west and deterrence in the east with the ability to cover some of the smaller irritants that also happen to populate that AO along with the PLAAF.

The super-bugs can only be utilized if the full growth variant options/additions are picked which is a headache of its own. By the end of this fiscal or the beginning of the next the deal will have been signed. The cost is spread over a large period, it isn't a lump sum payment of 15-20 billion in one go or something.

 

[asad71]

Indians haven't known the Yankees for long. I can see US foul-play in all this so that IAF repents rejecting the troubled F-35.