CV-17 Shandong - Type 002 Aircraft Carrier News & Discussions

[LKJ86]

Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

 

[LKJ86]

Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

 

[JSCh]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1307284757353553920

Eva Zheng 郑怡斌 عائشة @evazhengll

PLA CV17 Shangdong perform high speed hairpin turn in Bohai sea



7:45 PM · Sep 19, 2020

 

[kungfugymnast]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1307284757353553920

Eva Zheng 郑怡斌 عائشة @evazhengll

PLA CV17 Shangdong perform high speed hairpin turn in Bohai sea



7:45 PM · Sep 19, 2020

When Type 003 super carrier with EMALS becomes available and more such carriers being built in full production, all existing J-15A on Type 001 & 002 are likely to transfer to Type 003, 004, 005, etc. Type 001 & 002 by then will only be useful if China managed to come up with STOVL fighters that are suited for ski ramp take off.

 

[Deino]

When Type 003 super carrier with EMALS becomes available and more such carriers being built in full production, all existing J-15A on Type 001 & 002 are likely to transfer to Type 003, 004, 005, etc. Type 001 & 002 by then will only be useful if China managed to come up with STOVL fighters that are suited for ski ramp take off.

You don't get it ... the will be no STOVL fighter, at leat not for the foreseeable future

 

[Figaro]

When Type 003 super carrier with EMALS becomes available and more such carriers being built in full production, all existing J-15A on Type 001 & 002 are likely to transfer to Type 003, 004, 005, etc. Type 001 & 002 by then will only be useful if China managed to come up with STOVL fighters that are suited for ski ramp take off.

So then what will the 001 and 002 carriers have on them? Nothing? That means the PLAN wasted billions of dollars and years of time on what amounts to be two floating flat tops without any purpose. Besides, the J-15A was designed for STOBAR versus the J-15B/T which is designed for CATOBAR operations. I'm not sure why you think the Chinese have a shortage of J-15s to need to transfer them to other carriers.

 

[kungfugymnast]

So then what will the 001 and 002 carriers have on them? Nothing? That means the PLAN wasted billions of dollars and years of time on what amounts to be two floating flat tops without any purpose. Besides, the J-15A was designed for STOBAR versus the J-15B/T which is designed for CATOBAR operations. I'm not sure why you think the Chinese have a shortage of J-15s to need to transfer them to other carriers.

Consider type 001 & 002 are practice for China to perfect carrier building skills & technology. Transferring J-15A to Type 003 or newer carrier in future is not shortage but as part of MLU and not to put to waste.

Imagine when you already have 8 super carriers and STOVL fighters became available. Wouldn't it be practical to assign the Type 001 & 002 to SCS attached to Spratlys division where most of the STOVL fighters will be based at. If China came up with STOVL fighters, it will be larger than F-35B specifically designed for this role. F-35 made big mistake trying to design a plane for USAF, USN, USMC that reduced its efficiency.

Besides, launching J-15A from Type 001 & 002 aren't practical, better convert these 2 carriers into STOVL fighters platform.

 

[Figaro]

Consider type 001 & 002 are practice for China to perfect carrier building skills & technology. Transferring J-15A to Type 003 or newer carrier in future is not shortage but as part of MLU and not to put to waste.

Imagine when you already have 8 super carriers and STOVL fighters became available. Wouldn't it be practical to assign the Type 001 & 002 to SCS attached to Spratlys division where most of the STOVL fighters will be based at. If China came up with STOVL fighters, it will be larger than F-35B specifically designed for this role. F-35 made big mistake trying to design a plane for USAF, USN, USMC that reduced its efficiency.

Besides, launching J-15A from Type 001 & 002 aren't practical, better convert these 2 carriers into STOVL fighters platform.

Of course they would be ideal platforms if the PLA had STOVLs. The problem of the matter is they don't and probably will not in the foreseeable future. The move against STOVL was spurred by its very high developmental costs/time (even though it is within the Chinese aviation and engine industry) and the progress of the EM catapults, which offer a way to somewhat bypass the STOVL problem. So in short, unless the PLANAF wants the two carriers to serve no purpose at all, they will continue basing J-15s from there.

Consider type 001 & 002 are practice for China to perfect carrier building skills & technology.

You do not spend a total of a couple billion dollars and a decade just for "practice"; these carriers, including the 001, were meant form the get go as operational carriers. They can and will serve as training carriers but their foremost duty is still to use in operation.

 

[kungfugymnast]

Of course they would be ideal platforms if the PLA had STOVLs. The problem of the matter is they don't and probably will not in the foreseeable future. The move against STOVL was spurred by its very high developmental costs/time (even though it is within the Chinese aviation and engine industry) and the progress of the EM catapults, which offer a way to somewhat bypass the STOVL problem. So in short, unless the PLANAF wants the two carriers to serve no purpose at all, they will continue basing J-15s from there.

You do not spend a total of a couple billion dollars and a decade just for "practice"; these carriers, including the 001, were meant form the get go as operational carriers. They can and will serve as training carriers but their foremost duty is still to use in operation.

China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.

 

[Figaro]

China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.

Simply put it the Chinese have decided to not go to the STOVL route. Plain and simple. That is why the 076 tender included EM catapults, which would obviously not be necessary should a STOVL be in the pipeline. The fact of the matter is beyond several research papers around 2010, there has been no additional signs that the Chinese are pursuing STOVL; otherwise we would have heard about such efforts a long time ago. Regarding the F-35, the design to make the STOVL variant ultimately limited the capabilities of the F-35A and F-35C versions because all three wanted to share the common design, which proved to be a very large obstacle thanks to STOVL.

 

[UKBengali]

China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.

One correction - it was UK engineers from Rolls Royce that made the F-35B STOVL with tech from the Harrier Jump Jet.

 

[Deino]

One correction - it was UK engineers from Rolls Royce that made the F-35B STOVL with tech from the Harrier Jump Jet.

Nope ... RR assisted development of the STOVL engine/nozzle, but it was NOT "UK engineers from Rolls Royce that made the F-35B STOVL" and surely not "with tech from the Harrier Jump Jet."



But can we come back to the topic? Neither the F-35B nor development of a Chinese STOVL type is relevant to the current Shandong and to think the CV-17 will become a STOVL-carrier after introduction of the 003 and/or 004 is plain ridiculous.

 

[zhxy]

China can develop two forces at the same time, the blue and the red army.

Blue with aircraft carrier (STOVL)

Red with aircraft Carrier (without STOVL)

Next, the two forces will battle each other in drills, analyze results, then improve technology, develop new combat theories.

The cost for training green troops and developing - building two aircraft carriers with STOVL technology is about 10-12 billion USD. This is the amount equivalent to only 1 US aircraft carrier, due to cheaper labor costs in China and higher labor productivity.

 

[Deino]

So being involved means for you they did it alone and without RR, GE would have failed?

But please stop this off topic stuff here.

 

[zectech]

China placed nuclear powered carriers, air force and nevy fighters on top priorities first to counter dangerous US threat at the moment. STOVL fighter programme will start after stealth bomber (heavy fighter bomber) consecutively or concurrently.

It won't be hard for China because the same Yakovlev engineers that made F-35B STOVL could do the same for China. Single engine STOVL fighter most likely unless China wanted to try world's first twin engine STOVL large fighters. China would invest more into STOVL fighters because it could land on simple piece of flatlands should China decided to engage US in Pacific Ocean war. Heavy Tiltrotor is in China's mind too.

R&D involves trial and error involving billions to trillions. US made lots of fighters, choppers, ships in 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's that were short-lived spending much to contribute to technology perfection. You can see the same on J-10 development from A to B to C. J-10B built in small numbers and perfected further to J-10C that will go mass production. Even J-20B today is not finalized and subject to further modifications later in J-20C depending on how soon they could perfect the technology.

J-15s have to stay relevant in naval warfare.

They have the capabilities to be a strike fighter for many years. However when matched with F/A-18 Super Hornets, it is debatable of who wins.

To catch up, China should implement more electronic warfare on the J-15s, like the Saab Gripen. They can give false radar data forcing enemy aircraft to engage in vision range combat. Destroying long range stealth advantage. Having some aircraft like the Growler on the 001/2 would help too. And I mentioned that upgrading radars to radars not yet invented for planes would be a great R&D task for the J-15s. They have ground radars that can track and destroy stealth at many Kms. These radars need to be miniaturized for PLAN/ PLAAF.

Keeping J-15s relevant keeps 001/2 relevant and extends their usefulness to the PLAN.

001s won't be useless for many years, look at how long we Italians have kept our small light carrier in service with only harriers and helicopters. We know the limitations and use only for strike and ASW.