CPEC a game changer ?

[Nilgiri]

And these HDI numbers are real?

Data is collected by the United Nations HDRO. You can take up your disbelief/complaining with them.

a country where 600 MILLION people don't have access to sanitation, aka, bathrooms, and proper places to eat

You quote old figures. Wait for the Swach Bharat program results. Already millions of toilets have been constructed in just a couple years.

On longer life expectancy, there is a basic reason. Quit eating BEEF and if Pakistanis do that, their life expectancy ALONE will go up by 10 years as 95% of the Heart related deaths take place due to Cholesterol and Smoking in Pakistan. Pakistan has one of the highest consumption of the Red meat (both Beef and Lamb) and Smoking. Remove these, and add 45 minutes of Physical activity a day (walk, run, jog), and you can live 15-20 years longer, scientifically proven.

I went for my Physical last year, and even in the US, they have started to advise all the patients to stay away from Red meat, eat more Fish and Vegetables and spend an hour a day in Walking or Exercising, you'll live much longer. That has NOTHING to do with "growing economy", its a lifestyle issue. India has one of the largest Vegetarian population and naturally, they'll live longer. Vegetarian diet just doesn't have Cholesterol, or its so little that it has no impact versus what you get in Red meat and fatty Oils. Pakistanis love to eat. Indians don't love to eat as much and their portions are smaller too (another recommendations that doctors make to follow).

A ridiculous but amusing little spiel by you.

Indians dont live longer because of Vegetarianism. Maybe 1/3rd of Indians are strict Vegetarians to begin with. Plus plenty of higher meat eating countries have longer life expectancies than India.

Pakistanis love to "eat" and Indian's don't? LOL. Indian average calorie intake per capita has consistently been higher than Pakistan for a number of decades now. You can check the base FAO data from the wiki page here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_energy_intake#cite_note-4

BTW a proper simple Vegetarian diet will be balanced....but there are unhealthy Vegetarian diets too....in India these include ones where the person eats too much rice/starch, not enough dal/veggies and too much ghee/fat+sugar. That will definitely influence your LDL cholestrol badly over time (especially if exercise is bad too).....dietary cholestrol intake actually has poor corellation with LDL cholestrol in the blood....its more linked to consumption of dietary fats/starches combined with lack of exercise.

Its why India is suffering from a significant amount of Diabetes, high blood pressure and even overweight/obesity issues...more than its average income would predict.

Why Indians are expected to live longer than Pakistanis by two years if current conditions are held is more because of the access to health and greater education (like not shooting vaccine workers because they are jewish agents to make people sterile).

 

[Nilgiri]

Really! I thought that you and your compatriots said india was already a superpower. Ahead of China and set to over take america in 5 years. Do superpowers have any poverty at all?

Where have I said that India is already a superpower? India is massively underdeveloped and has a large number of problems that are being addressed with time but it will take a good deal longer still to rectify to a reasonable degree.

That has nothing to do with Pakistan being even further behind and being relatively stagnant in addressing its problems.

Of course all countries have poverty to some degree even superpowers (just look at the US for example). A superpower is not defined by its poverty level, but by its total economic, political, cultural and military power projection worldwide. The USSR was considered a superpower even though its poverty (by western standards) was quite high.

Same goes for the UK during the industrial revolution (Victorian era). Lots of its people were in dire relative poverty working in sweatshops and mines....but that didn't mean the UK was not a superpower in that period.

You are confusing what we are talking about here.

 

[Nike]

CPEC is just a mere projects, and that's not a game changer for the dire situation of Pakistan economic situation currently had. the actual game changer is reformation on bureaucratization system in Pakistani governments institutions, the handling of red tape habits, electrical problems, reformation on basic education system to providing a more qualified human resources in which i clearly sure Pakistan educational system is lack behind her peers among major developing nations like Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, Brazil and others, health systems.

 

[risingsinga]

I will summaries it to you in lehman terms. When you create "mutual inter dependency" with a global power, you are only set to gain from it. Economic, trade, strategist, geopolitical, what not.

You Afghans should be asking, wheather you want to be part of this CPEC , integrate yourself via Pakistan to the world biggest market and economy, or you are happy to import your pan-parags from India via Charbahar?

Excellent question

 

[Nilgiri]

CPEC is just a mere projects, and that's not a game changer for the dire situation of Pakistan economic situation currently had. the actual game changer is reformation on bureaucratization system in Pakistani governments institutions, the handling of red tape habits, electrical problems, reformation on basic education system to providing a more qualified human resources in which i clearly sure Pakistan educational system is lack behind her peers among major developing nations like Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, Brazil and others, health systems.

Thank you, thats exactly what I'm saying. There is underlying structural problems in Pakistan (education + bureaucracy effectiveness/efficiency) that CPEC cannot gloss over especially since its based on loans which need to be repaid (and thus need the end creations to be very financially viable to prevent debt crunch - and that needs the reforms you speak of).

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Where have I said that India is already a superpower? India is massively underdeveloped and has a large number of problems that are being addressed with time but it will take a good deal longer still to rectify to a reasonable degree.

That has nothing to do with Pakistan being even further behind and being relatively stagnant in addressing its problems.

Of course all countries have poverty to some degree even superpowers (just look at the US for example). A superpower is not defined by its poverty level, but by its total economic, political, cultural and military power projection worldwide. The USSR was considered a superpower even though its poverty (by western standards) was quite high.

Same goes for the UK during the industrial revolution (Victorian era). Lots of its people were in dire relative poverty working in sweatshops and mines....but that didn't mean the UK was not a superpower in that period.

You are confusing what we are talking about here.

No poverty here in the UK. Only wealth and prosperity. May have not been you but the way some indian trolls on PDF talk about Pakistan is as if india is a hyperpower and is paradise on earth. I've noticed the people who come from the TRUE wealthy nations (England, Germany, France, Japan etc) never troll PDF and criticise Pakistan or any other nation for that matter. It's always people who are from nations with extreme poverty and other huge problems. I myself have never ever been on an indian website, indian forum, watched an indian film/program or ever endorsed anything indian whatsoever in my life. And I never will. The thought makes me feel physically sick. The fact that there are so many Indian trolls on PDF spouting their propaganda and anti-Pakistan hatred conveys their deep insecurity and inferiority complex. Point is that Indian trolls on PDF don't really believe in their nation or race. If they did then they wouldn't be trolling PDF badmouthing CPEC.

 

[Nilgiri]

No poverty here in the UK. Only wealth and prosperity.

I am talking when the UK was considered a superpower from about 1850 to 1950. The earlier half of that span of years definitely say immense levels of what we would call poverty today in the UK. Look up the working and living conditions of the factories in Manchester and the Mines in Wales. It took time for the wages and conditions to reach levels where decent margins were transferred to the workers, but by then the UK was no longer considered a superpower.

There definitely is a certain amount of poverty in the UK that persists to this day depending how you define it:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32812601

May have not been you but the way some indian trolls on PDF talk about Pakistan is as if india is a hyperpower and is paradise on earth.

Take your issues up with them, not me.

I've noticed the people who come from the TRUE wealthy nations (England, Germany, France, Japan etc) never troll PDF and criticise Pakistan or any other nation for that matter.

I've seen plenty of people from "those" countries criticize Pakistan and other nations in all sorts of ways. There are plenty of threads ongoing right now as we speak. Want me to post them?

You can ask @django about his exchanges with one particular Italian individual .

I myself have never ever been on an indian website, indian forum, watched an indian film/program or ever endorsed anything indian whatsoever in my life. And I never will. The thought makes me feel physically sick.

Yah we will take your word for it. You certainly seem to be unhealthily obssessed with saying so each time you post anything. In my experience people that are genuinely like that dont go around repeating it 24/7 at any opportunity.

The fact that there are so many Indian trolls on PDF spouting their propaganda and anti-Pakistan hatred conveys their deep insecurity and inferiority complex. Point is that Indian trolls on PDF don't really believe in their nation or race. If they did then they wouldn't be trolling PDF badmouthing CPEC.

There are plenty of trolls all over the internet. Why they spend their life like they do is known only to them. I don't think it has anything to do with what they may or may not believe w.r.t India (regarding the ones from there).

In fact I have found a number of Indians on this board are pretty anti-BJP/anti-Modi and butt heads with many other Indian "patriot/conservative" posters but they troll Pakistanis anyway in various other threads sort of to prove their "true Indian" identity because they get exposed otherwise somehow in the other threads....and many of the other Indian "patriots/conservatives" never indulge in such stuff....since they got nothing to prove and are mostly focused on discussing the Indian socio-economic and political scene within the Indian subforums.

Its not such an easy thing to lump everyone into one category. I certainly would not do so for the Pakistani posters here.

Anyways my whole point is to discuss the finer issues of the CPEC strategy and not simply lump it into a great success or great failure (its too early to say either way conclusively anyway). I simply go by the facts and evidence that are available and try to make the most informed analysis/projection. If you can respond without dragging in what you think other Indian members are like that would be ideal. But if you keep dragging this beyond the topic at hand in emotional ways, then there is no point in discussing. I will respond to other members that have a better interest in engaging items factually and logically.

 

[544_delta]

- Is the term "game changer" being used without being backed by concrete facts and figures ?

everything is a game changer for us dude....untill it isn't...then its onwards to the next "game changer"

I dont think they are going to get any transit fee... Roads are built by them and pakistan has to repay at a rate of 18% on dollar value... Gwadar is leased for 40 years as of now and chinese have all rights on port.. no fees for Pakistan as per my understanding... power plants are also chinese companies, chinese engineers and chinese maintenance... but pakistan has to payback at 18% interest rate... i am not sure what pakistan will gain...

local businesses will thrive.. enterpreneurs will bloom in SMEs mostly... those will generate taxes.. but wil they offset the loss and compensate for 18% annual interest rate ?? Big question.

and NO, there might not be any major exports from pakistan except mangoes.

dont you dare downplay the mangoes

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I am talking when the UK was considered a superpower from about 1850 to 1950. The earlier half of that span of years definitely say immense levels of what we would call poverty today in the UK. Look up the working and living conditions of the factories in Manchester and the Mines in Wales. It took time for the wages and conditions to reach levels where decent margins were transferred to the workers, but by then the UK was no longer considered a superpower.

There definitely is a certain amount of poverty in the UK that persists to this day depending how you define it:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32812601



Take your issues up with them, not me.



I've seen plenty of people from "those" countries criticize Pakistan and other nations in all sorts of ways. There are plenty of threads ongoing right now as we speak. Want me to post them?

You can ask @django about his exchanges with one particular Italian individual .



Yah we will take your word for it. You certainly seem to be unhealthily obssessed with saying so each time you post anything. In my experience people that are genuinely like that dont go around repeating it 24/7 at any opportunity.



There are plenty of trolls all over the internet. Why they spend their life like they do is known only to them. I don't think it has anything to do with what they may or may not believe w.r.t India (regarding the ones from there).

In fact I have found a number of Indians on this board are pretty anti-BJP/anti-Modi and butt heads with many other Indian "patriot/conservative" posters but they troll Pakistanis anyway in various other threads sort of to prove their "true Indian" identity because they get exposed otherwise somehow in the other threads....and many of the other Indian "patriots/conservatives" never indulge in such stuff....since they got nothing to prove and are mostly focused on discussing the Indian socio-economic and political scene within the Indian subforums.

Its not such an easy thing to lump everyone into one category. I certainly would not do so for the Pakistani posters here.

Anyways my whole point is to discuss the finer issues of the CPEC strategy and not simply lump it into a great success or great failure (its too early to say either way conclusively anyway). I simply go by the facts and evidence that are available and try to make the most informed analysis/projection. If you can respond without dragging in what you think other Indian members are like that would be ideal. But if you keep dragging this beyond the topic at hand in emotional ways, then there is no point in discussing. I will respond to other members that have a better interest in engaging items factually and logically.

It will take at least 15-20 years to gauge the success or failure of CPEC. Even then the outcome will not be clear as CPEC will morph/be superseded by other programs. Good post above though. Good relations read.

 

[ssethii]

Thank you, thats exactly what I'm saying. There is underlying structural problems in Pakistan (education + bureaucracy effectiveness/efficiency) that CPEC cannot gloss over especially since its based on loans which need to be repaid (and thus need the end creations to be very financially viable to prevent debt crunch - and that needs the reforms you speak of).

Your concerns are to some extent legitimate but you see necessity is the mother of invention. With same bureaucratic+educational setup we managed to achieve many goals in our short history. The key was delinking them form the existing setup and make special custom made arrangements according to the needs. Prime example being our nuclear program, you may call it plain luck or Chinese assistance but still it shows how things progress when projects are made top priority in nation's agenda list.
T'm listening to this port's strategic location and how it can connect landlocked central Asian states access to warm waters since my childhood, but nothing materialized and all the efforts made showed no progress on ground partially due to economic instability and militancy. But today's Pakistan is different and all of us are rallying around the vision given us by Chinese president(leadership crisis at home I must admit here) when he announced this project in his state visit to Pakistan not long ago. The pictures from RISAT speak better about how we have embraced that vision, than any words could ever do.

 

[Nilgiri]

Your concerns are to some extent legitimate but you see necessity is the mother of invention. With same bureaucratic+educational setup we managed to achieve many goals in our short history. The key was delinking them form the existing setup and make special custom made arrangements according to the needs. Prime example being our nuclear program, you may call it plain luck or Chinese assistance but still it shows how things progress when projects are made top priority in nation's agenda list.
T'm listening to this port's strategic location and how it can connect landlocked central Asian states access to warm waters since my childhood, but nothing materialized and all the efforts made showed no progress on ground partially due to economic instability and militancy. But today's Pakistan is different and all of us are rallying around the vision given us by Chinese president(leadership crisis at home I must admit here) when he announced this project in his state visit to Pakistan not long ago. The pictures from RISAT speak better about how we have embraced that vision, than any words could ever do.

There is no guarantee of success or failure. It depends on how hard Pakistan govt/elite works to make the overall concept a success. There can be no regular political gimmicking, bickering and mismanagement especially in the education and training realm. The window I figure is about from now and 10 years or so from now where there is a 180 reversal in Pakistans bureaucratic efficiency.

If Pakistan has indeed begun a new chapter and can genuinely reform its economy and society to the extent needed to "take off" after the CPEC "ignition" then it will be the start of a much larger development acceleration for sure.

But that is a big if for me. I am not seeing enough being done on the human resource front. Each year of delay means many years of mismatched utilisation/capacity ratio down the road which will be bad for the loan structure of this project.

But I am happy to be proven wrong over time.

 

[raj76]

panama canal prjoect 70 km long todays value 87 bill dollars investment and panama is still a banana republic so pls its not projects its the ppl of a nation which build up GDP. Chinese are already going for automation of there manufacturing units and they have 7-8 times population of pakistan and with less international demand why would they move there jobs to pakistan . They just want a route in which they are investing through chinese companies with assured guarantees by pakistani government in dollars and yes pakistan will benefit but 90% pie goes to china. i just wish pakistan was in a better position to balance that share of the pie

 

[ssethii]

There is no guarantee of success or failure. It depends on how hard Pakistan govt/elite works to make the overall concept a success. There can be no regular political gimmicking, bickering and mismanagement especially in the education and training realm. The window I figure is about from now and 10 years or so from now where there is a 180 reversal in Pakistans bureaucratic efficiency.

If Pakistan has indeed begun a new chapter and can genuinely reform its economy and society to the extent needed to "take off" after the CPEC "ignition" then it will be the start of a much larger development acceleration for sure.

But that is a big if for me. I am not seeing enough being done on the human resource front. Each year of delay means many years of mismatched utilisation/capacity ratio down the road which will be bad for the loan structure of this project.

But I am happy to be proven wrong over time.

I agree on the point that human resource development has never been a priority and this along with security situation, is why we see ever growing number of brain drain each year. But this will not effect this project due to the parallel Chinese assistance. And probably that is why a special force has been raised to ensure their safety as well.
If the status-quo remains viz-e-viz this situation we may see a longer Chinese stay than envisaged.

 

[Nilgiri]

I agree on the point that human resource development has never been a priority and this along with security situation, is why we see ever growing number of brain drain each year. But this will not effect this project due to the parallel Chinese assistance. And probably that is why a special force has been raised to ensure their safety as well.
If the status-quo remains viz-e-viz this situation we may see a longer Chinese stay than envisaged.

You are optimistic. It is fine, you are from Pakistan and you have every right to be.

I will stay removed and observant over next few years or so. Let's see how it goes.

 

[ssethii]

You are optimistic. It is fine, you are from Pakistan and you have every right to be.

I will stay removed and observant over next few years or so. Let's see how it goes.

Don't give up so early, you can always try to persuade others to think otherwise with your facts. I was rather enjoying your line of argument as it made sense which is quite rare to be honest coming from across the border. The project in itself is very ambitious strengthened only by the special relation Pakistan enjoys with it's counterpart and that is the root cause for such optimism for us.