Could the F-7PG package sorted out PAF BVR problem?

[qsaark]

Every aircraft is prone to a BVR shot. But still then, if there is life after BVR which is WVR---then the scenario changes completely. Now you are suddenly in the realm of the F 7 pg----what the fighter was designed and equipped for---that is what I am trying to share.

Satishkumar---some PAF F7 PG pilots would disagree with you. When you say F 16---they say---bring it on. You see F 7PG is not overweight---it is still a fighter interceptor. For example---what the MIG 21 BIS has gained in BVR---it has lost in WVR---well that is a choice that an air force wants to follow.

You have already mentioned very correctly in another of your post. What can force Bison or other IAF high-tech fighter equipped with BVR missiles to go into a WVR combat with the F-16s or F-7 PGs? Once they have fired up all their missiles, the'll leave the theater, that is it. Now, the distance of engagement may not be at the max range of their BVR (we are aware of BVR limitations especially IFF), but it may still be safe enough for the BVR equipped fighters. An ALQ-131 equipped F-16 may evade one or two BVR shots, but what about multiple round missile engagements? Why Su-30 MKI are so deadly? primarily because they carry between eight and twelve BVR missiles. so they can fire more than one, three, or even four round BVR missile salvo during the opening phases of an engagement. In this scenario, the aircraft being targeted has lots of problems as it must jam, decoy and/or outmanoeuvre three or four tightly spaced inbound missiles. Even if we assume a mediocre per round kill probability of 30%, a four round salvo still exceeds a total kill probability of 75 percent.

PAF has how many F-16s? 44 + 18 more ? to achieve a 75% kill probability to wipe out the entire fleet of PAF's frontline fighter, do we need to do some serious maths?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Qsaark,

Thankyou---sometimes in order to get someones attention you have to go to the basics to get an opening---you are absolutely correct---SU 30 is the most deadly adversary that the PAF has to face----and to date, they have nothing to show as to how they can combat that aircraft---it is a true AIR DOMINANCE FIGHTER aircraft.

 

[Energon]

For example---what the MIG 21 BIS has gained in BVR---it has lost in WVR---well that is a choice that an air force wants to follow.

If I'm not mistaken the USAF was rather perturbed by the WVR abilities of the Mig21Bis during those Cope exercises. Also, doesn't the IAF fly their Mig 21s in mixed formation with only some of them being the bis and bison variants, and the rest being dedicated WVR platforms?

 

[Contrarian]

primarily because they carry between eight and twelve BVR missiles. so they can fire more than one, three, or even four round BVR missile salvo during the opening phases of an engagement. In this scenario, the aircraft being targeted has lots of problems as it must jam, decoy and/or outmanoeuvre three or four tightly spaced inbound missiles. Even if we assume a mediocre per round kill probability of 30%, a four round salvo still exceeds a total kill probability of 75 percent.

The current radar allows for targetting 4 aircraft, though I have read reports that mention the number as 8.

 

[MastanKhan]

If I'm not mistaken the USAF was rather perturbed by the WVR abilities of the Mig21Bis during those Cope exercises. Also, doesn't the IAF fly their Mig 21s in mixed formation with only some of them being the bis and bison variants, and the rest being dedicated WVR platforms?

Hi,

I should have made it a little clearer---Mig 21 bis even with its increaed weight is still a deadly close combat fighter---just like the Blk 52 F 16. But nothing like the manueverability of the F 16 A/b---same thing with the F 7 PG.

If you can get the opponent into your zone of strength---all Mig 21 and its variants are extremely deadly fighter aircrafts.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Hi,

I should have made it a little clearer---Mig 21 bis even with its increaed weight is still a deadly close combat fighter---just like the Blk 52 F 16. But nothing like the manueverability of the F 16 A/b---same thing with the F 7 PG.

If you can get the opponent into your zone of strength---all Mig 21 and its variants are extremely deadly fighter aircrafts.

If both the pilots wants to get his opponent into his own zone of strength it might end up like the Face off between the Mirage and the Harriers in the later days of Falklands War.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

You have already mentioned very correctly in another of your post. What can force Bison or other IAF high-tech fighter equipped with BVR missiles to go into a WVR combat with the F-16s or F-7 PGs? Once they have fired up all their missiles, the'll leave the theater, that is it. Now, the distance of engagement may not be at the max range of their BVR (we are aware of BVR limitations especially IFF), but it may still be safe enough for the BVR equipped fighters. An ALQ-131 equipped F-16 may evade one or two BVR shots, but what about multiple round missile engagements? Why Su-30 MKI are so deadly? primarily because they carry between eight and twelve BVR missiles. so they can fire more than one, three, or even four round BVR missile salvo during the opening phases of an engagement. In this scenario, the aircraft being targeted has lots of problems as it must jam, decoy and/or outmanoeuvre three or four tightly spaced inbound missiles. Even if we assume a mediocre per round kill probability of 30%, a four round salvo still exceeds a total kill probability of 75 percent.

PAF has how many F-16s? 44 + 18 more ? to achieve a 75% kill probability to wipe out the entire fleet of PAF's frontline fighter, do we need to do some serious maths?

Its good yo calculate and analyze things in numbers, taking out probability is an important part of preparation for the Great day. But brother in between all this calculations and statistics yo for got to mention the big variable " Tactics". with out a doubt BVR is a force saturating threat. But there are ways to avoid it , and time and space defines how you avoid it. for example. we talk about ADDER the state of the art Active missile with directional war head. At high altitudes the Russian claims an effective range of 40 nautical miles (head on). (Head on means that both the BVR plat form and his target are moving towards each other head to head). It dosent mean that the whole dame 40 NM are going to travelled by the missle. The missle will only cover some 70 to 80 percent , the rest of the travel is covered by the target AC, as it is coming in. And remember the range of a missle is defined by the rate of clouser between the two AC. It does not mean that if a BVR missle is chasing a target its going to shoot it from a the same head on range. If you are pointing into a BVR AC, and you know that yo are about to get into its head on ranges , Trust me turn left or right by 5 degrees and you will reduce the range of BVR . the more you reduce the rate of clouser the lesser will be the BVR ranges. apart form this try fighting it in lower altitdes , since the air is more denser it will redce its ranges even more. Breaking lock at redced ranges is also another method. once you break the lock these russian AC needs alot of time to acquire just becase of their poor argonomics.
If yo break its lock now the BVR pilot will be in a fix, he has to track yo and then lock yo and then decide whether to go for a IR missile or a BVR...During this time yo have to play yor game and if your wing man is smart enough he should have either gone 15,000 pluse or 15,000 minus in altitude and give the enemy a sweet surprise. lastly if yo are having a shorter range weapon yo pull your enemy out from a place where he is a threat and yo bring him to a place where his existence doesn't cont (this means yo bait him by showing constant threat and loiter around his max ranges and tell him that if he doesn't come after yo , yo are going to surprise him)
Air Power is about being at the right place at the right time , No nation can achieve air control just by having BVRs

And its all practically done.

 

[Contrarian]

MaXimMaRz, Just one request buddy, put some spaces in your posts.

Different paragraphs with spaces, etc would make your post a lot more readable.

 

[MastanKhan]

MaximMarz,

Thankyou for your post. We agree with your analysis---but then here is the real issue---today---every time I send my pilot up in the air----I knowingly send him up there with a major handicap---first he is flying an older machine, his radar is less capable, his offensive weaponery is no match for the opponent, he is facing numeric superiority, he is basically on a suicide mission---isn't he.

Now, don't get me wrong---I understand what you are saying----but this technique has a lots of risk involved in it for the pilot and the air force---I mean to say that how many times this particular technique may be used.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Its good yo calculate and analyze things in numbers, taking out probability is an important part of preparation for the Great day. But brother in between all this calculations and statistics yo for got to mention the big variable " Tactics". with out a doubt BVR is a force saturating threat. But there are ways to avoid it , and time and space defines how you avoid it. for example. we talk about ADDER the state of the art Active missile with directional war head. At high altitudes the Russian claims an effective range of 40 nautical miles (head on). (Head on means that both the BVR plat form and his target are moving towards each other head to head). It dosent mean that the whole dame 40 NM are going to travelled by the missle. The missle will only cover some 70 to 80 percent , the rest of the travel is covered by the target AC, as it is coming in. And remember the range of a missle is defined by the rate of clouser between the two AC. It does not mean that if a BVR missle is chasing a target its going to shoot it from a the same head on range. If you are pointing into a BVR AC, and you know that yo are about to get into its head on ranges , Trust me turn left or right by 5 degrees and you will reduce the range of BVR . the more you reduce the rate of clouser the lesser will be the BVR ranges. apart form this try fighting it in lower altitdes , since the air is more denser it will redce its ranges even more. Breaking lock at redced ranges is also another method. once you break the lock these russian AC needs alot of time to acquire just becase of their poor argonomics.
If yo break its lock now the BVR pilot will be in a fix, he has to track yo and then lock yo and then decide whether to go for a IR missile or a BVR...During this time yo have to play yor game and if your wing man is smart enough he should have either gone 15,000 pluse or 15,000 minus in altitude and give the enemy a sweet surprise. lastly if yo are having a shorter range weapon yo pull your enemy out from a place where he is a threat and yo bring him to a place where his existence doesn't cont (this means yo bait him by showing constant threat and loiter around his max ranges and tell him that if he doesn't come after yo , yo are going to surprise him)
Air Power is about being at the right place at the right time , No nation can achieve air control just by having BVRs

And its all practically done.

I would rather be 15k feet above as I will have enough energy when I face my opponent.

 

[princefaisal]

I think we should contact China for conversion of our existing F-7 aircraft to F-7MF configuration with bigger node to accommodate bigger radar. In this way, we will have true bvr capability.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I think we should contact China for conversion of our existing F-7 aircraft to F-7MF configuration with bigger node to accommodate bigger radar. In this way, we will have true bvr capability.

C'mon you think that is as easy as it is said. The F 7PG is really good. Why dont you wait for the JF 17 to fill in the place instead of wasting your money on upgradation of the F7.

 

[Zob]

we might have a handicap in terms of not having BVRs but u have to realise that the enemy has to cross international border inorder to engage....they might have a lock on to u but inorder to be engage u it will have to most certainy cross the border. and besides flying low with ground clutter the BVR can't get a lock....and you pop up the minute u r within visual range...then the game becomes more or less equal and u have support of friendly SAM units....i remember reading that on the famous Pathankot raid PAF fighter took off from the airfiled with a heading towards the south...then dropping below radar range and headed towards our pathankot...now the thing is days have changed tactics have changed and i doubt we will ever cross the border without BVRs so for defence WVR fighters are not a problem with good support from SAMs...you simply fly low loose the lock and get within range and pop up and light them up!! correct me if i am wrong.....

 

[satishkumarcsc]

we might have a handicap in terms of not having BVRs but u have to realise that the enemy has to cross international border inorder to engage....they might have a lock on to u but inorder to be engage u it will have to most certainy cross the border. and besides flying low with ground clutter the BVR can't get a lock....and you pop up the minute u r within visual range...then the game becomes more or less equal and u have support of friendly SAM units....i remember reading that on the famous Pathankot raid PAF fighter took off from the airfiled with a heading towards the south...then dropping below radar range and headed towards our pathankot...now the thing is days have changed tactics have changed and i doubt we will ever cross the border without BVRs so for defence WVR fighters are not a problem with good support from SAMs...you simply fly low loose the lock and get within range and pop up and light them up!! correct me if i am wrong.....

You need to know a lot about ACM. Why dont you read something or ask MuradK sir to help you out in this. My friend who told me about ACM told me that energy was the key in all A2A combat and you cant fight without speed.

 

[Zob]

Ok well ur friend is a genius and i am an idiot satish....MIG25 was one of the fastest planes ever...and yet it was never considered the best dog fighter. similarly the Japanese ZERO fighters were much faster than what the americans threw at them...and yet zeros were shot down constantly....all siccsiors and barrel roll moves drain speed....if speed was everything why would u learn these moves and use them....