Could the F-7PG package sorted out PAF BVR problem?

[satishkumarcsc]

Ok well ur friend is a genius and i am an idiot satish....MIG25 was one of the fastest planes ever...and yet it was never considered the best dog fighter. similarly the Japanese ZERO fighters were much faster than what the americans threw at them...and yet zeros were shot down constantly....all siccsiors and barrel roll moves drain speed....if speed was everything why would u learn these moves and use them....

Okay you got me all wrong. Let us take you are flying at an altitude of 2000m from sea level and I am flying at 15000m above sea level. I am armed with a BVR missile and You are armed with a IR homing missile. I cant lock you on due to ground clutter and your missile cant fire in a frontal aspect because of the IR homing. so you have to close in at gun range. so you force me into a merge.

During the merge you will climb up and thus losing energy as you are defying gravity hence there is loss of speed... and I see that and I start climbing more. I still have energy left and by the time you catch up with me you shall lose your air speed thus forcing your fighter to stall. which is the chance always expected by the opponent. By the time you gain control you can see a 'rain' of lead or a 'lit cigarette' coming to you.

The opponents aircraft must also be taken into account. If I am flying a MiG 29 and if you are in a F 7PG then I will surely outaccelerate you and outclimb you and out turn you. There are many ways an engagement can take place. ENERGY IS THE KEY FOR AIR TO AIR VICTORY. Pakistani pilots are good at energy management. They wont do the stupid mistake. They would rather turn and fly instead of fighting the enemy's fight. Run today to fight tommorow.

Sir MuradK am I right or wrong?

 

[MaXimMaRz]

MaximMarz,

Thankyou for your post. We agree with your analysis---but then here is the real issue---today---every time I send my pilot up in the air----I knowingly send him up there with a major handicap---first he is flying an older machine, his radar is less capable, his offensive weaponery is no match for the opponent, he is facing numeric superiority, he is basically on a suicide mission---isn't he.

Now, don't get me wrong---I understand what you are saying----but this technique has a lots of risk involved in it for the pilot and the air force---I mean to say that how many times this particular technique may be used.

I will agree to that only if your pilot is on a OCAO.

In DCAO he wont be in the realm of suicidal mission because he will have immense ground support, plenty of space to run around.

Therefore i suggest that in DCAO:

1. Aim for the center of gravity. by that i mean not indulge with those who are not the main load dumpers

2. Drag the Escorts out , since v got the weaker weapon, u can do that.

3. Put them in a Isosceles triangle threat , use multi-directional threat stance, wont be hard under friendly radar cover.

4. When its important go for a tactical spilt , dont wait , since its ur home ground.

5. Pump as much chaffs as u can, even if the lock doesnt break, u still play with his mind.

6. Do ro die follow the rules of engagement, never compromise on BVR safety ranges, cuz in a few minutes u will get another chance to get in.

7. Kill numbers never matter, go for ur aim even if u dont shot anything but u defend wat u wanted to , u win congrads!

8. and remember even if u give me a hundred escorts , i will fail if they are dragged out and are late by a few seconds or a few degrees.

For OCAO i think it will be a bit difficult bt still if u:

1. Again dont go for every target. strike a compromise between Strategic and Tactical targets.

2. When u Go to for a strike Go with a Bang, Take Maximum protection, even if u have to reduce your strikes from lets say 3 to 2 per 4 hours do that. But never compromise on a large number of escorts.

3. make sure u are lead by a good sweep.

4. IN OCAO Human INTEL is a must. A REAL MuST.

5. Get In there OODA Loop and think ahead of them. (again Human intel.)

6. Increase ur bombers in a strike by 40%. Its better to strike once with a bang rather then 2 or 3 smaller unprotected strikes.

7. on the way dont engage far of CAPS, remember the mission and its aim.

8. If Some one has to die it should be one of your escorts not the bombers.

9. Escorts should know that the enemy is also there to flight with a plan and they will always want to shoot the bombers not them. (escorts will be a secondary target). make use of this fact.

10. When u get multi directional threat , Point the farthest and and gain time , never let them be at different directions and same range (in such a case get out, wait for the chrip to die , then go back, if still chirping take a cut in pattern and pump chaffs.

11. when u know that ur death can buy the strike some time, don't wait start fighting. after all that's what an escort is for.

12. when the leader thinks that things are getting out of hand , follow him, dump your load there and then , call it for live to fight another day, there is no shame in it.

13. Fighting against BVR will cost u more , so its up to u to buy the best ground target.

the bottom line is in a fight of a weak skinny man with a big huge guy, the weaker only has a few shots to deliver, but if one of the first few shots is on the big man's balls. u win or buy more time. Raising the cost of victory for the enemy is and must be the aim of a weak person

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Okay you got me all wrong. Let us take you are flying at an altitude of 2000m from sea level and I am flying at 15000m above sea level. I am armed with a BVR missile and You are armed with a IR homing missile. I cant lock you on due to ground clutter and your missile cant fire in a frontal aspect because of the IR homing. so you have to close in at gun range. so you force me into a merge.

During the merge you will climb up and thus losing energy as you are defying gravity hence there is loss of speed... and I see that and I start climbing more. I still have energy left and by the time you catch up with me you shall lose your air speed thus forcing your fighter to stall. which is the chance always expected by the opponent. By the time you gain control you can see a 'rain' of lead or a 'lit cigarette' coming to you.

The opponents aircraft must also be taken into account. If I am flying a MiG 29 and if you are in a F 7PG then I will surely outaccelerate you and outclimb you and out turn you. There are many ways an engagement can take place. ENERGY IS THE KEY FOR AIR TO AIR VICTORY. Pakistani pilots are good at energy management. They wont do the stupid mistake. They would rather turn and fly instead of fighting the enemy's fight. Run today to fight tommorow.

Sir MuradK am I right or wrong?

1. You will get yourself killed , if u think IR missile cant fire from front aspect (try reading about ALL ASPECT IR MISSILES). You have to Pull back your throttle to at least Military setting and then Get on 180 aspect (Dead head to head). 150 TO 120 IS A DEADLY ASPECT FOR ALL ASPECT IR , ITS GETTING HEAT AND DLZ (Dynamic Launch Zone)

2. Secondly Remember a low to high IR shot is a clean Sweet shot , because you are giving him a cooler background.

3. If u have a BVR and u are higher by that margin, u r painting him intermitent and still he forces u into a merge , then u should die , i mean form such good place u end up in a Close battle ..Bad ( Try getting into Bore sight mode of ur radar pickle him, dip on him and off he goes baby)

4. You r Right " SPEED IS LIFE IN AIR COMBAT" and altitude is important for that.

5. Why will u climb further if you see the enemy climbing for u, He is a sitting Duck with less energy , again point and shoot.

6. If i was in a battle with u where i am the lower guy and i see u climbing with all those ADDERs and ALAMOS even further , i will just laugh and think Why did they buy it then

 

[satishkumarcsc]

1. You will get yourself killed , if u think IR missile cant fire from front aspect (try reading about ALL ASPECT IR MISSILES). You have to Pull back your throttle to at least Military setting and then Get on 180 aspect (Dead head to head). 150 TO 120 IS A DEADLY ASPECT FOR ALL ASPECT IR , ITS GETTING HEAT AND DLZ (Dynamic Launch Zone)

2. Secondly Remember a low to high IR shot is a clean Sweet shot , because you are giving him a cooler background.

3. If u have a BVR and u are higher by that margin, u r painting him intermitent and still he forces u into a merge , then u should die , i mean form such good place u end up in a Close battle ..Bad ( Try getting into Bore sight mode of ur radar pickle him, dip on him and off he goes baby)

4. You r Right " SPEED IS LIFE IN AIR COMBAT" and altitude is important for that.

5. Why will u climb further if you see the enemy climbing for u, He is a sitting Duck with less energy , again point and shoot.

6. If i was in a battle with u where i am the lower guy and i see u climbing with all those ADDERs and ALAMOS even further , i will just laugh and think Why did they buy it then

I was telling ZOB that it is not as easy as it seems to sneak beneath the BVR and fire a shot. I know my post has a lot of Anomalies. He was the guy who told me that he can use the ground clutter and climb and shoot as if the above aircraft is a sitting duck. And about the IR missile...My bad never thought of that. F 7 is armed with PL 9 missile.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

The current radar allows for targetting 4 aircraft, though I have read reports that mention the number as 8.

That is not targeting that is Tracking. the mode is called TWS (track while scan).

Tracking means you get the required data to launch a missile on to that target AC.

You can target that AC once you lock it , Tracking and locking are different things.

Once u lock the track, the target AC RWR kicks in .

And Yes Su-30 can TRACK 8 targets

 

[Zob]

thanx maximarz...so if it is such an impossible thing to avoid a BVR then how can u have the epic david vs golaith...of F7PG vs let's say MIRAGE 2000 with BVR....leave alone a SU30....how can u avoid a BVR shot....if u can't use ground clutter u can't use climb at the last moment...what have u really got to survive a sucide battle...?

 

[MaXimMaRz]

thanx maximarz...so if it is such an impossible thing to avoid a BVR then how can u have the epic david vs golaith...of F7PG vs let's say MIRAGE 2000 with BVR....leave alone a SU30....how can u avoid a BVR shot....if u can't use ground clutter u can't use climb at the last moment...what have u really got to survive a sucide battle...?

Who says you cant avoid BVR ? I was talking in reference to the hypothetical senario that guy created. Anyways there are many ways to Avoid a BVR shot!
thats the reason why BVR are fired in SALVO and the accuracy of a BVR is still below 30%

Taking ABM (anti BVR maneuvers is a matter of timing).

Please got to this link :

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/19447-air-air-missiles-command-air.html#post321426

and read the my post under the heading of :
BVR is a threat no doubt : but i think its a threat a bit OVER RATED

Although you asking for Anti BVR maneuvers and i will be glad to tell u but let me finish my assignment bro or i am dead tomorrow !

the key factors how ever are :

1. reduce rate of clouser .
2. Make a Isosceles Triangular threat for him.
3. once locked take a High G turn with max. Chaffs
4. Fight at a lower altitude (to reduce his range)
5. Bait him away from where he is suppose to be , that way you dont even have to kill him and ur objective will be achieved
6. And if he a BVR is fired you still got the last ditch maneuver up your selves

I will tell you all these in detail , for now i got to finish my Home work lolz

 

[Super Falcon]

oh crap this airforce forum is getting bore now for last seven days everything is same in this forum for GOD sake open some new threads close the old chapters

 

[TOPGUN]

Guys i always wanted to see a PAF f7-pg cockpit can any one show us?

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Guys i always wanted to see a PAF f7-pg cockpit can any one show us?

PAF f7-pg cockpit

 

[TOPGUN]

Thx borther!

 

[nightrider_saulat]

I THINK F-7 PG's IN PAF ARE GOOD TO DEAL WITH IAF GROUND ATTACK AIRCRAFT LIKE MIG-27,JAGUAR
AND QUITE POSSIBLE EVEN THE BEST CHOICE TO DEAL WITH THE INDIAN MIG-21
IN CLOSE AIR COMBAT(WVRM WARFaRE)

 

[paritosh]

^^^ the indian mig-21s are being grounded...and the only ones that'd remain are the Bison upgrades...search for them on the internet...they are quite impressive.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

F 7 PG is a newer plane as compared the the ones that india got upgraded to mig 21bis---right now---as it seems---the dash is all analog on F 7PG---with the right upgrades---it can definitely fire the bvr---all mig 21 and their different variants have all been known to be extremely deadly dog fighters.

 

[wangrong]

Unmanned aerial vehicle