Concepts / Ideas for the Pakistan Navy

[sparten]

Again, the Turks are in narrow closed waters, of the Eastern Med and the Black Sea. We are operating in the open ocean areas of the Indian Ocean. What a great solution for them isn't necessarily for us.

 

[JamD]

Let me put on my optimistic cap on for one minute

See, I disagree, I really dislike AShBM’s, there’s a lot of problems that come with them, we don’t have the ISR network needed to be able to employ them, they’re also not ideal for anything that isn’t a really big and slow moving target. Just look at the cm400akg, it’s entire role is to take out really slow and large ships, even then, I’d question its efficacy because well, carriers can go fast.

So I do agree with the point about the issues with AShBMs. For the benefit of the wider audience, these are:
1. Detecting the target far out to sea - say 300 km from the coast in the middle of the Indian Ocean. This would probably require some sort of satellite network, or a SOSUS type thing. So difficult, but not impossible.
2. Tracking the target. Since the target is moving you need to keep track of it. Geostationary satellites probably cannot provide accurate enough targeting info, and LEO satellites don't stay on station (so you need many many more). Also, I doubt SOSUS-type system can provide accurate enough location for targeting.
3. Communicating the targeting info to the missile. This would require satellites and would have to overcome the effect of plasma (created due to high speeds) blocking radar waves.
4. As an alternative to 3, you could have a radar seeker on your missile. Of course this still needs to deal with plasma.
5. The lack of maneuverability since you're flying so fast.

Ok so here's my optimistic hope for the P282. Yes, it's a quasi-ballistic missile like the CM400AKG BUT it is NOT meant to be used like the DF21 for example. It is to be used for ranges of 100-130 km tops! Here's what this gives you:
1. You can detect the target using onboard sensors or allied aircraft.
2. You can track the target for the same reason.
3. Since you are not flying to long ranges, you are not flying higher and coming down at Mach 10 or something - you are perhaps Mach 4-5 ish tops. This should make the effect of plasma less pronounced.
4. The radar seeker can work better for the same reason as 3.
5. You fly a shallower trajectory: giving you more time with your seeker towards the target. And you're flying "relatively" slower, giving you more time to maneuver.

So the P282 might not be designed as a carrier killer to hit ships deep in the Indian Ocean. It might be just an antiship missile designed to defeat missile defense for sure. So for example you could either launch a bunch of C802s at an IN ship but there's a good chance they'll be intercepted by Barak 8. But a P282 coming in at Mach 4.5 will almost certainly get through.

Of course, until we see what the P282 looks like, this is all optimistic speculation.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Orbital weapons. Geostationary satellite with a few multiple nuclear tipped warheads directly above our EEZ. Speed should be Mach 9+. Guaranteed kill of any enemy weapons.

 

[Vapnope]

We all know that PN is not getting a dedicated fighter squadron in near future however is it a possibility that our Sea Sultan carries 2 or 4 PL 15s to take care of aerial threats?

 

[Akh1112]

Let me put on my optimistic cap on for one minute

So I do agree with the point about the issues with AShBMs. For the benefit of the wider audience, these are:
1. Detecting the target far out to sea - say 300 km from the coast in the middle of the Indian Ocean. This would probably require some sort of satellite network, or a SOSUS type thing. So difficult, but not impossible.
2. Tracking the target. Since the target is moving you need to keep track of it. Geostationary satellites probably cannot provide accurate enough targeting info, and LEO satellites don't stay on station (so you need many many more). Also, I doubt SOSUS-type system can provide accurate enough location for targeting.
3. Communicating the targeting info to the missile. This would require satellites and would have to overcome the effect of plasma (created due to high speeds) blocking radar waves.
4. As an alternative to 3, you could have a radar seeker on your missile. Of course this still needs to deal with plasma.
5. The lack of maneuverability since you're flying so fast.

Ok so here's my optimistic hope for the P282. Yes, it's a quasi-ballistic missile like the CM400AKG BUT it is NOT meant to be used like the DF21 for example. It is to be used for ranges of 100-130 km tops! Here's what this gives you:
1. You can detect the target using onboard sensors or allied aircraft.
2. You can track the target for the same reason.
3. Since you are not flying to long ranges, you are not flying higher and coming down at Mach 10 or something - you are perhaps Mach 4-5 ish tops. This should make the effect of plasma less pronounced.
4. The radar seeker can work better for the same reason as 3.
5. You fly a shallower trajectory: giving you more time with your seeker towards the target. And you're flying "relatively" slower, giving you more time to maneuver.

So the P282 might not be designed as a carrier killer to hit ships deep in the Indian Ocean. It might be just an antiship missile designed to defeat missile defense for sure. So for example you could either launch a bunch of C802s at an IN ship but there's a good chance they'll be intercepted by Barak 8. But a P282 coming in at Mach 4.5 will almost certainly get through.

Of course, until we see what the P282 looks like, this is all optimistic speculation.

I mean, you’re not wrong, you are being quite optimistic lol.

see, I’m a believer in low and slow, I really don’t think it’s a great idea, Barak 8 has intercepted ballistic missiles and I’m sure that paired with LR radars and CEC would kinda question the survivability of the p282 IMO.

I do like the compromise though, missiles which fly low and slow for most of the flight, then have a supersonic dash, yes, i know there’s negatives to this approach, but I think it would be the best all rounder, though, at the end of the day, im still going to be skeptical about anti ship ballistic missiles, even if we were to use the best case scenario you mentioned above.

im sincerely hoping we end up arming these with SMASH or buying Atmaca.

 

[JamD]

I mean, you’re not wrong, you are being quite optimistic lol.

see, I’m a believer in low and slow, I really don’t think it’s a great idea, Barak 8 has intercepted ballistic missiles and I’m sure that paired with LR radars and CEC would kinda question the survivability of the p282 IMO.

I do like the compromise though, missiles which fly low and slow for most of the flight, then have a supersonic dash, yes, i know there’s negatives to this approach, but I think it would be the best all rounder, though, at the end of the day, im still going to be skeptical about anti ship ballistic missiles, even if we were to use the best case scenario you mentioned above.

im sincerely hoping we end up arming these with SMASH or buying Atmaca.

lol I know I was being very optimistic.

I'm basically trying to fit a logic to the existence of the P282. I mean doing a DF21 thing would make 0 sense. So I came up with a scenario where it made maybe 10% sense. I mean they ARE working on it. The question is why? A related question is why isn't SMASH enough?

 

[Akh1112]

lol I know I was being very optimistic.

I'm basically trying to fit a logic to the existence of the P282. I mean doing a DF21 thing would make 0 sense. So I came up with a scenario where it made maybe 10% sense. I mean they ARE working on it. The question is why? A related question is why isn't SMASH enough?

Unironically I wonder whether there’s some sort of SLBM application becuase for surface stuff this just seems like a money sink.

 

[Bilal.]

We need OTH radar(s).

 

[JamD]

Unironically I wonder whether there’s some sort of SLBM application becuase for surface stuff this just seems like a money sink.

That would make sense if the former CNS hadn't mentioned the P282 in the "hypersonic domain". Yes technically any decent ranged BM is in the hypersonic domain, but specifically mentioning hypersonic domain alludes to some sort of HGV. Unless of course the former CNS was using semantics to scare the opposition lol.

 

[Akh1112]

That would make sense if the former CNS hadn't mentioned the P282 in the "hypersonic domain". Yes technically any decent ranged BM is in the hypersonic domain, but specifically mentioning hypersonic domain alludes to some sort of HGV. Unless of course the former CNS was using semantics to scare the opposition lol.

But then wouldn’t a HGV imply the total opposite of what we have been discussing? Though, hypersonics is way out of my comfort zone, however, to my understanding, a hgv would just bring up the issues I had discussed before again?

In the context of our military, our guys love to use big buzz words, so maybe it was a case of that, I really don’t see a surface application for this, however a submarine application os something that’s been on my mind for quite a while now

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

6 to 8 of these if they cover entire Pakistani waters will be great for us. Along with Patrol Crafts which have both Anti Ship missiles as well as torpedo tubes for mini torpedo's presented by Turkish Navy.

Except for a handful of boats for infiltration missions, I think the PN probably wants full-sized (1,500 ton to 2,000-ton) submarines for open water operations.

Ideally, the PN likely prefers a very silent design -- e.g., fuel-cell AIP, efficient plumbing, minimized mechanical movements, etc -- with range and torpedo load for hunting enemy submarines and ships.

IMO something like the Type 212 would be ideal, but that boat isn't available to us (and never will be). However, the Turks are trying to develop something like that via the MILDEN; let's see if they'd allow us to join in that project.

 

[JamD]

But then wouldn’t a HGV imply the total opposite of what we have been discussing? Though, hypersonics is way out of my comfort zone, however, to my understanding, a hgv would just bring up the issues I had discussed before again?

Not sure what you mean by total opposite. Let me just say that when I was talking about a P282, I was thinking of it like the DF-17. An HGV boosted by a BM. Yes, it would bring up all those issues we discussed. Which is the source of my confusion as to WHY does the P282 exist.

In the context of our military, our guys love to use big buzz words, so maybe it was a case of that,

A likely scenario lol

I really don’t see a surface application for this, however a submarine application os something that’s been on my mind for quite a while now

Right. But back to square one. If it's a SLBM, why not just say that?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not sure what you mean by total opposite. Let me just say that when I was talking about a P282, I was thinking of it like the DF-17. An HGV boosted by a BM. Yes, it would bring up all those issues we discussed. Which is the source of my confusion as to WHY does the P282 exist.



A likely scenario lol


Right. But back to square one. If it's a SLBM, why not just say that?

I'm telling you now, "BaLass Missile" is a thing. India's going to wish it had one too.

 

[Akh1112]

Not sure what you mean by total opposite. Let me just say that when I was talking about a P282, I was thinking of it like the DF-17. An HGV boosted by a BM. Yes, it would bring up all those issues we discussed. Which is the source of my confusion as to WHY does the P282 exist.



A likely scenario lol


Right. But back to square one. If it's a SLBM, why not just say that?

Ah right, no we’re on the same page wrt the first point, I had just got confused.

In all honestly, I really don’t understand it either, logically it makes no sense, there’s no real scenario I could see it being useful, in fact, I think it’s detrimental to the Jinnah class, the world has moved on from solid fuel rocket motors for anti ship missiles and for good reason, I realistically see no real scope for this missile unless put on a submarine. I guess a scenario I could foresee is an adaptation of the p282 to fit on a sub, or a development of it, with this p282 v1 being some sort of an experimental missile. Honestly Idk what’s going on here

 

[JamD]

I'm telling you now, "BaLass Missile" is a thing. India's going to wish it had one too.

"In the hypersonic domain, ship-based long-range, anti-ship and land-attack, P282, blas ballistic missile is under development"
Points to note:
1. Long range: So my whole optimistic idea is out the window @Akh1112
2. Ship based: NOT submarine based. Further confirmed by Jinnah brochure.
3. Anti-ship mentioned before land-attack: I'm grasping at straws but anti-ship seems like the primary mission.
4. Ballistic: an HGV will certainly have a ballistic boost phase so not surprising.

Maybe the idea is to hit Indian ports? Do a hypersonic pearl harbour.

EDIT:
5. Blas: Game-changer secret technology.