Concepts / Ideas for the Pakistan Navy

[BHAN85]

Another insane idea that could inspire a sane idea:

Use electric energy to make sea water dissociation in hydrogen and oxygen to produce high-test peroxide (hydrogen peroxide) and blow up a piece of sea.

 

[Akh1112]

NOTE: Following post is completely based on ASSUMPTION formed after reading about number of possible systems, which could be used as base for Ship Based AShM and Land Attack Missile


In my Opinion the term "Long range" in Previous Naval Chief Speech was referring to something greater than 280 KM but less than 999 KM or in more simpler way we could assume something in +450 KM range.

Closest analogy of P-282 as an Anti-Ship Missile could be SM-6 IB missile which with larger rocket motor is capable to achieve hypersonic velocity. In AShM role it is equip not only with Active Radar Guidance but with GPS guidance

So a Missile which may be little heavier than SM-6 IB let say in category of +2,000 Kg with warhead of around 200-250 Kg and approximate length of 6-7 m with suitable diameter of let say less than or equivalent to 0.5 m should be capable enough to achieve + 450 KM.

Any such system might not be a pure ballistic missile system but could be similar to Quasi Ballistic CM-400AKG AShM

we had discussed the quasi ballistic missile route and concluded that it’s not really feasible based off of cns’ statements. Aside from that, theres a lot of problems with a cm400akg type missile, especially if it is the main offensive armament of the ship, with it being unable to hit manoeuvring or fast targets, that’s quite concwrning

 

[BHAN85]

Another idea: a bomb in the sea to study the shock wave in a long distance and search far foes submarines. same way earthquakes are useful to study Earth interior.

 

[HRK]

I believe by developing P-282 missile Pakistan is attempting to meet the growing requirement of a new Technology of (Quasi) Ballistic missile which could achieve hypersonic speed without leaving earth atmosphere in depressed trajectory, when achieved in Missile technology domain it will neutralize the technological edge of India which it has achieved by successfully developing Shurya Missile and submarine launch capable K-15 missiles.

These type of missiles are a real threat to any missile defence system as due to speed and depressed trajectory these will be difficult to intercept and, in Naval Domain their utility in land attack role get increased many folds as It allow one side to reach as near to the enemy shores as possible by using submarine.

Therefore P-282 would not be a single missile but a new family of missiles and will be addition of new technology in our Missile arsenal. The Family of Missiles based on this new technology specially in short and intermediate range is a real requirement, specially when S-400 will achieved operational status in India.

As we known we don't have any submarine with VLS capable of carrying of Ballistic Missile, therefore during the initial stage of development the new family of missiles based on this technology particularly in Naval domain we have to limit ourselves to Surface Ships and because of this limitation we can predict certain things about the future direction of Pakistan Navy like.

- The Primary task of Jinnah class Frigate as a part of a Naval Task Group would be Land Attack, anti-ship operations would be considered secondary task

- As next stage of development PN would surely acquire submarine with VLS capable to carry P-282 or its derivatives in Theater Ballistic Missile category

- This thing would bring PN one more step close to achieve truly complete Nuclear Triad as per needs and requirements of IOR

- As P-282 would be a dedicated ship based missile therefore it will never be integrated with nuclear warhead

- Which mean it will be the first Ballistic Missile in Pakistani arsenal design only for conventional use.

 

[Akh1112]

I believe by developing P-282 missile Pakistan is attempting to meet the growing requirement of a new Technology of (Quasi) Ballistic missile which could achieve hypersonic speed without leaving earth atmosphere in depressed trajectory, when achieved in Missile technology domain it will neutralize the technological edge of India which it has achieved by successfully developing Shurya Missile and submarine launch capable K-15 missiles.

These type of missiles are a real threat to any missile defence system as due to speed and depressed trajectory these will be difficult to intercept and, in Naval Domain their utility in land attack role get increased many folds as It allow one side to reach as near to the enemy shores as possible by using submarine.

Therefore P-282 would not be a single missile but a new family of missiles and will be addition of new technology in our Missile arsenal. The Family of Missiles based on this new technology specially in short and intermediate range is a real requirement, specially when S-400 will achieved operational status in India.

As we known we don't have any submarine with VLS capable of carrying of Ballistic Missile, therefore during the initial stage of development the new family of missiles based on this technology particularly in Naval domain we have to limit ourselves to Surface Ships and because of this limitation we can predict certain things about the future direction of Pakistan Navy like.

- The Primary task of Jinnah class Frigate as a part of a Naval Task Group would be Land Attack, anti-ship operations would be considered secondary task

- As next stage of development PN would surely acquire submarine with VLS capable to carry P-282 or its derivatives in Theater Ballistic Missile category

- This thing would bring PN one more step close to achieve truly complete Nuclear Triad as per needs and requirements of IOR

- As P-282 would be a dedicated ship based missile therefore it will never be integrated with nuclear warhead

- Which mean it will be the first Ballistic Missile in Pakistani arsenal design only for conventional use.

Sorry but I’m going to disagree. Hypersonic within the earths atmosphere while in unpowered flight seems like one hell of a feat, I may be wrong, but man, that doesn’t seem very feasible, even if it did, I’d expect it to be hypersonic for a very short time until atmospheric forces get the best of it. Remember AAM’s hit high speeds because they fly high, if we get this thing to fly high, you’re giving yourself away, the other problem lies within the terminal dive and course correction, at high speeds, you’re going to struggle to make significant changes.

This is why the cm400akg is specifically designed for large, slow moving targets.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I believe by developing P-282 missile Pakistan is attempting to meet the growing requirement of a new Technology of (Quasi) Ballistic missile which could achieve hypersonic speed without leaving earth atmosphere in depressed trajectory, when achieved in Missile technology domain it will neutralize the technological edge of India which it has achieved by successfully developing Shurya Missile and submarine launch capable K-15 missiles.

These type of missiles are a real threat to any missile defence system as due to speed and depressed trajectory these will be difficult to intercept and, in Naval Domain their utility in land attack role get increased many folds as It allow one side to reach as near to the enemy shores as possible by using submarine.

Therefore P-282 would not be a single missile but a new family of missiles and will be addition of new technology in our Missile arsenal. The Family of Missiles based on this new technology specially in short and intermediate range is a real requirement, specially when S-400 will achieved operational status in India.

As we known we don't have any submarine with VLS capable of carrying of Ballistic Missile, therefore during the initial stage of development the new family of missiles based on this technology particularly in Naval domain we have to limit ourselves to Surface Ships and because of this limitation we can predict certain things about the future direction of Pakistan Navy like.

- The Primary task of Jinnah class Frigate as a part of a Naval Task Group would be Land Attack, anti-ship operations would be considered secondary task

- As next stage of development PN would surely acquire submarine with VLS capable to carry P-282 or its derivatives in Theater Ballistic Missile category

- This thing would bring PN one more step close to achieve truly complete Nuclear Triad as per needs and requirements of IOR

- As P-282 would be a dedicated ship based missile therefore it will never be integrated with nuclear warhead

- Which mean it will be the first Ballistic Missile in Pakistani arsenal design only for conventional use.

I agree about the part of the P282 spawning a new family of BMs. In fact, I think the P282 could be the start of Pakistan's next-generation BMs.

I don't know about the technical capabilities of these new BMs, but with the CNS saying, "ship-based" I imagine we're looking at compact designs. So, that must involve some major improvements in our motor technology and knowledge of solid fuel.

The "anti-ship" aspect would imply a terminal-stage maneuvering capability. So, with these two aspects in mind, it sounds like we'll see our own Iskander-type solution. This could later evolve into longer-range BMs -- e.g., 'Shaheen NG I/II' and so on.

 

[Bilal.]

I agree about the part of the P282 spawning a new family of BMs. In fact, I think the P282 could be the start of Pakistan's next-generation BMs.

I don't know about the technical capabilities of these new BMs, but with the CNS saying, "ship-based" I imagine we're looking at compact designs. So, that must involve some major improvements in our motor technology and knowledge of solid fuel.

The "anti-ship" aspect would imply a terminal-stage maneuvering capability. So, with these two aspects in mind, it sounds like we'll see our own Iskander-type solution. This could later evolve into longer-range BMs -- e.g., 'Shaheen NG I/II' and so on.

If North Korea can why can't we

https://www.nonproliferation.org/preliminary-analysis-kn-23-srbm/ @The Deterrent

defence.pk

 

[HRK]

Sorry but I’m going to disagree. Hypersonic within the earths atmosphere while in unpowered flight seems like one hell of a feat, I may be wrong, but man, that doesn’t seem very feasible, even if it did, I’d expect it to be hypersonic for a very short time until atmospheric forces get the best of it. Remember AAM’s hit high speeds because they fly high, if we get this thing to fly high, you’re giving yourself away, the other problem lies within the terminal dive and course correction, at high speeds, you’re going to struggle to make significant changes.

This is why the cm400akg is specifically designed for large, slow moving targets.

There are many such missile systems already operational like Russian Iskander Missile, Indian Shurya and K-Series of Missiles, Ukrainian Grome-2 Missile, North korean KN-23 missile

All these missiles have less than Mach-10 (+7-8 Mach) & apogee vary from +50 km within earth atmosphere, so it's an already existing technology and till now Pakistan has not worked on any Missile system in this category so it is a requirement as well specially after Indian K- series of missiles

I agree about the part of the P282 spawning a new family of BMs. In fact, I think the P282 could be the start of Pakistan's next-generation BMs.

I don't know about the technical capabilities of these new BMs, but with the CNS saying, "ship-based" I imagine we're looking at compact designs. So, that must involve some major improvements in our motor technology and knowledge of solid fuel.

The "anti-ship" aspect would imply a terminal-stage maneuvering capability. So, with these two aspects in mind, it sounds like we'll see our own Iskander-type solution. This could later evolve into longer-range BMs -- e.g., 'Shaheen NG I/II' and so on.

fully agreed

 

[Pak Nationalist]

A layman's question here who is just enjoying the exchange here and trying to develop an understanding of the content being discussed:

If we do not have the eyes in space (military satellites) keeping track of the enemy's surface fleet and giving guidance to a warhead that has been launched to target a moving vessel, why are we even working on an anti-ship ballistic missile i.e. P282? I understand that this confusion is shared by others as well? continued remote sensing I understand is vital for a moving target's acquisition and continued tracking till the warhead does its job.

problem is lol, it’s not doable. Like, we lack the ISR for ‘long range’ anti ship strikes.

ok, let’s say we wanna blow the shit out of their ports, why are we using it as the primary anti shipping armament of Jinnah class, something doesn’t add up.

that’s kinda why I question this whole idea, like, you can’t do this both, I know he said surface ship based but I still have some hope that this is for submarines in the end, because, well, that’s the only sensible and logical option left at this point. We have exhausted ourselves doing mental gymnastics trying to justify the PN’s decision, however, every time we try, they gun it down with the statements from above, I really don’t know how this will work, in fact, I think it’s a terrible idea and needs to be canned for surface use, so that it can be adapted to underwater use and actually be threatening


Yes, we do have access to beidou, though, satellites aren’t exactly ideal because well, afaik they fly in a fixed path, thus you may have coverage gaps.

now that means we have to use other means to sense and track.

however, that’s one part of the problem, the other problem is, you can’t really hit fast moving targets, such as those frigates or destroyers, or even carriers, maybe it’s useful to take out ships undergoing replenishment or something, but I really don’t see any utlility for an ashbm, let alone one being deployed in the way thePN is planning.

my original hope for p282 was that it would be carried aboard a larger ship, so something in the 6000t+ range, alongside anti ship missiles, not replace them which is what the PN is wanting to do. In that case, I guess you could pull out a niche use and also have some sort of deterrence value, but god this is an awful solution.

So, you are suggesting its use as a strategic weapon with a nuke-tipped warhead instead? I guess there was a private Pakistani company that was developing a system that could provide surveillance from the upper reaches of the atmosphere (not space though). Could something like that do the remote sensing? Moreover, with Indian ASAT capability, even if we have a constellation of our own dedicated military satellites in the future (depending on how the economy performs), those would be susceptible to being taken out very early on in a hot conflict to degrade our situational awareness. The other issue is that satellites can't stay suspended over a certain area so to speak (moving wrt. earth at the same velocity as the rotation/spin of the earth) in my understanding. So, a constellation is required at least a single element of which could cover an area of interest (like the Indian Ocean region) at a given time. With all this, why would we need to develop the carrier killer-type weapons when we do not have the ancillary infrastructure in place to actualize that capability? P282 is a real riddle.

 

[Nasr]

I advocate for Pakistan to embark upon a joint program for development of unmanned submarines with Russia. This program should be built on a long term basis and with the utmost discretion in building trust between the two nations. This will be in line with Pakistan Military doctrine of diversification of weapons systems.

 

[Akh1112]

There are many such missile systems already operational like Russian Iskander Missile, Indian Shurya and K-Series of Missiles, Ukrainian Grome-2 Missile, North korean KN-23 missile

All these missiles have less than Mach-10 (+7-8 Mach) & apogee vary from +50 km within earth atmosphere, so it's an already existing technology and till now Pakistan has not worked on any Missile system in this category so it is a requirement as well specially after Indian K- series of missiles

fully agreed

The difference is they’re huge compared to what we’re aiming for

 

[HRK]

The difference is they’re huge compared to what we’re aiming for

exactly but I am not saying very first missile P-282 would be same the size as Iskander missile .....

The more I think about P-282 I start to believe it will be a sort of technology demonstrator of a new family of missiles, but with lesser dimension just as example consider it as Abdali Missile which was the first member of Hataf Ballistic Missiles series.

At least at this stage ship based P-282 would not be similar to dimension and weight class of Iskandar or Grom-2 missiles which are roughly around 7 tonnes in weight and +10 meters in length

As per my guess after seeing Jinnah class model and marketing pamphlet P-282 should be around 6-7 meter of length and around 2 to 2.5 tonnes in weight with diameter of +0.5 meter, warhead should weight between 150-250 Kg, additionally I am not expecting to be Mach 7+ but maximum +5.5 to 6 Mach missile

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

exactly but I am not saying very first missile P-282 would be same size as Iskander missile .....

The more I think about P-282 I start to believe it will be a sort technology demonstrator of a new family of missiles but with lesser dimension for example consider it as Abdali Missile which was the first member of Hataf Ballistic Missiles series.

At least at this ship based P-282 would not be similar to dimessionand and weight class of Iskandar, Grom-2 missiles which are roughly around 7 tonnes in weight and +10 meters in length

As per my guess after seeing Jinnah class model and marketing pamphlet P-282 should be around 6-7 meter of length and around 2 tonnes to 2.5 tonnes in weight with diameter of +0.5 meter, warhead should weight between 150-250 Kg, additionally I am not expecting to be Mach 7+ but Mach maximum +5.5 to 6 Mach missile

The closest thing to the P282 (as we know it) is the CM401.

 

[Bilal.]

The closest thing to the P282 (as we know it) is the CM401.

View attachment 772428

And A/MGG-20B

 

[JamD]

The closest thing to the P282 (as we know it) is the CM401.

View attachment 772428

Ok yeah that's basically what the P282 will be. I will be shocked if it's anything else.