Concepts / Ideas for the Pakistan Navy

[JamD]

My humble concept;
View attachment 771597

Quad-packed?lol Will take down all the aircraft on the planet.

 

[JamD]

To everyone saying carriers and fixed-wing naval assets, it might be worth it for us to follow Turkey's developments.

Not only are they developing UCAVs capable of operating from their current LHD (TCG Anadolu) without catapults, but the Turks are even studying what it'd take to make the Hurjet operable from that ship too (with minimal modifications to the ship).

I think this work is gamechanging. If Turkey succeeds, then even the PN can have a carrier-based aviation wing consisting of both manned fighters and drones. The dependency would be getting an LHD, which are generally available for around $2-ish billion US from several countries (China, Italy, Spain, etc).

The near thing about LHDs is that they're also configurable for amphibious operations. So the PN wouldn't have to stick with a single-purpose design, its 'carriers' can double as troop carriers, armour freighters, HADR assets, etc.

The downside would be that a theoretical PN air wing wouldn't have a large twin-engine fighter -- it's main asset would basically be the Hurjet. So, we are talking about more limited range and payload. Then again, it shouldn't be too far from the JF-17, so if the PAF can use the JF-17 for maritime ops, then the PN should be able to use the Hurjet?

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View attachment 771446

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My humble concept;
View attachment 771597

Since we're doing out there concepts, here's another. Take an old oil tanker design and covert it into the poor man's drone carrier. Dual catapults for launching fixed-wing UCAVs. Helicopters use the flight deck.

The fixed-wing UCAVs do ISR and can carry some anti-ship missiles. The helicopters are capable of ASW. Everything is managed from the island by a small crew.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Since we're doing out there concepts, here's another. Take an old oil tanker design and covert it into the poor man's drone carrier. Dual catapults for launching fixed-wing UCAVs. Helicopters use the flight deck.

The fixed-wing UCAVs do ISR and can carry some anti-ship missiles. The helicopters are capable of ASW. Everything is managed from the island by a small crew.
View attachment 771921

Can this recover/retrieve the fixed-wing drones?

 

[Akh1112]

I thought I'd start a thread that discusses concepts or ideas the Pakistan Navy (PN) should pursue in the coming years.

Note: I'm open to talking about developmental ideas, recommended purchases, etc. Just keep it within reason.

For example, I was looking through some of the things Turkey's working on at IDEF 2021, and noticed STM's new 'Multi-Purpose Attack Craft' (MPAC). I think the MPAC can be a good idea of where the PN can take the FAC(M) / Azmat-class should the PN need a larger mini-corvette type of platform (via DefenceTurk).

I think we can stretch the FAC(M) to retain its AShW/LACM capacity but also add ASW capabilities. In fact, Turkey is developing its own torpedo-tube launchers for its lightweight torpedoes. We basically have an option to build a low-cost multi-mission solution to fill our littoral waters.

View attachment 771345

oh boy, now I can finally LARP as a procurement official. Right, to business we go;

f-22p’s- unsurvivable, turn them into littoral asw frigates with a modern sensor suite, have them stay nice and close, allowing them to stay relatively safe from enemy assets.

Azmat class is interesting, for some reason, in my head I envision them as more of a strike platform, a ship that will try and get as close to the Indian shoreline as it can, lob some cruise missiles to strike hvt’s then GTFO, I like this idea and think they’re solid little ships for this role, however, if I had the option to pretend the purchase never happened, I would.

054A- nothing much to say really, maybe if the PLAN sells their used hulls, we should pick them up to bulk up the fleet, decent for ASW duties.

Babur Class- god I despise GWS, I think it’s a stupid system designed for idiots(the brits). It should be ditched in favour of ExLS, I’m confident you can fit two 3 cell packs on the ship, giving you a total of 24 missiles. The VLS load out is my biggest gripe with them.

Jinnah class- man was I disappointed, I was really expecting more from it, all it really reminds me of is the jump between the block 1 jf17 and the block 2, nothing much, just some enhancements. Once again, I’d really look towards pushing for more VLS and also adding more AShM’s to take advantage of the limitations of missile guidance on some Indian vessels.

on to what I’d want to see:

i really like the idea of having a large fleet of fast attack craft to launch swarm attacks against larger ships. The MRTP-33 is perfect IMO, however, really, we should be designing and building these ourselves. Yes people will disagree with me when it comes to this, however, I genuinely think a fleet of 20-30 mrtp33 type ships, armed with a modern AShM will be a major, major threat.

piggybacking off of that- a modern AShM, Exocets, harpoons and c802s have all outlived their stay, they need to go, harbah isn’t the answer, nor is SMASh, ironically, the atmaca has kind of grown on me, the PN should look towards something like that, not to say I’m entirely satisfied with it either, I’d like to see the next iteration with a secondary IIR seeker, this is something I think would be really good to have in our inventory, not to say we should buy it, but I see no reason we can’t develop one, with help of course from them. It’s something that needs to be looked at seriously.

The PN also has a dire need for some sort of wide area AAW to prevent Karachi becoming a dart board for IN AShM’s again, yes, every armchair general will say, BUY DESTROYERS !!!! , however, I cannot see why we can’t use a real VLS and equip Jinnah with something like ASTER or whatever the Turks conjure up. This isn’t even To protect Karachi alone, but to protect those other vessels that are operating without any real self defence.

submarines, oh submarines,

Yes, we’re going in the right direction, though I really think we need to look towards a long term replacement for the Agosta series, and I don’t think it should be off the shelf, rather, we need to get the navy it’s own jf-17, get them on board milden, heck, if that doesn’t work, get them to join Saab/Damen, whatever they do, they need to get some experience and hands on time with submarine design, though some might say that they already have reasonable experience.

right, this one is a bit more controversial, however, we need ssbn’s, our second strike capabilities are not exactly sufficient, if we’re turned to dust, I can’t imagine a flight of a few Babur’s will avenge us, thus, we need a fleet of SSBN’s armed to the teeth to ensure that we actually have a proper second strike capability.

lastly,

take advantage of that ANKA deal, we need to start delegating tasks to low cost platforms, we can’t keep sending p3s every time a ship is in distress or a suspicious ship is seen, offload this to a naval Anka.


ngl I don’t think my wants are too unrealistic,

Can this recover/retrieve the fixed-wing drones?

I don’t really understand the obsession with fixed wing carriers, we share a border with our adversary???

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

oh boy, now I can finally LARP as a procurement official. Right, to business we go;

f-22p’s- unsurvivable, turn them into littoral asw frigates with a modern sensor suite, have them stay nice and close, allowing them to stay relatively safe from enemy assets.

Azmat class is interesting, for some reason, in my head I envision them as more of a strike platform, a ship that will try and get as close to the Indian shoreline as it can, lob some cruise missiles to strike hvt’s then GTFO, I like this idea and think they’re solid little ships for this role, however, if I had the option to pretend the purchase never happened, I would.

054A- nothing much to say really, maybe if the PLAN sells their used hulls, we should pick them up to bulk up the fleet, decent for ASW duties.

Babur Class- god I despise GWS, I think it’s a stupid system designed for idiots(the brits). It should be ditched in favour of ExLS, I’m confident you can fit two 3 cell packs on the ship, giving you a total of 24 missiles. The VLS load out is my biggest gripe with them.

Jinnah class- man was I disappointed, I was really expecting more from it, all it really reminds me of is the jump between the block 1 jf17 and the block 2, nothing much, just some enhancements. Once again, I’d really look towards pushing for more VLS and also adding more AShM’s to take advantage of the limitations of missile guidance on some Indian vessels.

on to what I’d want to see:

i really like the idea of having a large fleet of fast attack craft to launch swarm attacks against larger ships. The MRTP-33 is perfect IMO, however, really, we should be designing and building these ourselves. Yes people will disagree with me when it comes to this, however, I genuinely think a fleet of 20-30 mrtp33 type ships, armed with a modern AShM will be a major, major threat.

piggybacking off of that- a modern AShM, Exocets, harpoons and c802s have all outlived their stay, they need to go, harbah isn’t the answer, nor is SMASh, ironically, the atmaca has kind of grown on me, the PN should look towards something like that, not to say I’m entirely satisfied with it either, I’d like to see the next iteration with a secondary IIR seeker, this is something I think would be really good to have in our inventory, not to say we should buy it, but I see no reason we can’t develop one, with help of course from them. It’s something that needs to be looked at seriously.

The PN also has a dire need for some sort of wide area AAW to prevent Karachi becoming a dart board for IN AShM’s again, yes, every armchair general will say, BUY DESTROYERS !!!! , however, I cannot see why we can’t use a real VLS and equip Jinnah with something like ASTER or whatever the Turks conjure up. This isn’t even To protect Karachi alone, but to protect those other vessels that are operating without any real self defence.

submarines, oh submarines,

Yes, we’re going in the right direction, though I really think we need to look towards a long term replacement for the Agosta series, and I don’t think it should be off the shelf, rather, we need to get the navy it’s own jf-17, get them on board milden, heck, if that doesn’t work, get them to join Saab/Damen, whatever they do, they need to get some experience and hands on time with submarine design, though some might say that they already have reasonable experience.

right, this one is a bit more controversial, however, we need ssbn’s, our second strike capabilities are not exactly sufficient, if we’re turned to dust, I can’t imagine a flight of a few Babur’s will avenge us, thus, we need a fleet of SSBN’s armed to the teeth to ensure that we actually have a proper second strike capability.

lastly,

take advantage of that ANKA deal, we need to start delegating tasks to low cost platforms, we can’t keep sending p3s every time a ship is in distress or a suspicious ship is seen, offload this to a naval Anka.


ngl I don’t think my wants are too unrealistic,


I don’t really understand the obsession with fixed wing carriers, we share a border with our adversary???

I'd work towards 8 Jinnah-class frigates. I'm good with the 3,300-ton displacement, but I'd try getting a 32-cell VLS system (I honestly think there's enough room) with quad-packability. Otherwise, I'm good with the ship overall, especially knowing it may carry the P-282 ASBM.

In the long run, I'd gradually work the F-22P out of the "major surface vessel" rotation. It'll hit 20 years of age from 2030, so I expect NHQ will start drawing up its replacement. I think the next natural step would be a 4,000-5,000-ton frigate with long-range AAW capability. Perhaps an evolution of the J-Class?

It wouldn't surprise me if the PN loads up on additional AIP-equipped submarines, including shallow-water attack (SWAT) boats. We know UUVs are coming as well. But it would be interesting if we delve into XLUUVs and autonomous operating capabilities down the line.

I also like the stealthy FAC idea. However, I wonder if there's value in taking it a step further by designing or pursuing a 200-300-ton USV capable of 50-60 knots. Basically, fit it with supersonic ASCMs and/or long-range LACMs. Build by the dozens for A2/AD and, potentially, being a pest for India's coastline.

 

[JamD]

Can this recover/retrieve the fixed-wing drones?

Yes I did have recovery in mind. Because UAVs are much smaller and lighter and can fly much slower without stalling, recovery might even be possible without the use of arresting cables.

Yes I did have recovery in mind. Because UAVs are much smaller and lighter and can fly much slower without stalling, recovery might even be possible without the use of arresting cables.

Also, I have TB2 size or smaller drones in mind.

 

[CrazyZ]

A stealth maritime strike AC...(as part of AZM). Far more cost effective then an AC carrier. AI controlled mini subs.....make crossing the Arabian sea a death sentence for any oil/gas shipments to India from the gulf.

 

[Zarvan]

If these subs can cover almost entire Pakistani waters along with patrol crafts presented by STM. Pakistan should induct them in large numbers. They can be used to hunt Indian submarines and ships who try to enter our water.

Turkey's STM Reveals Design of 540-ton Mini Attack Submarine (defenseworld.net)

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Anti Ship Ballistic missile. But this time not something from the 90s , re fitted , but something from this day and age.
I bet you indian Agni P will have ASBM capabilities, which will put PN at a great disadvantage as all cruise missiles are less than 700km range and India with ASBM won't let PN come that close, rendering cruise missile capability unusable.

During 02/26 to 02/28 episode IN kept their AC 8K km away from the Pak shores while their subs were getting detected....

The Indian master strategists are ex Police officers in the mold of the RAW boss turned NSAs!!! And, they fight Pak till the last Bangal, Afgan, TTP, BLA, Mafia, proxy traitors etc.....

Every capability Pak acquires puts an exponentially higher pressure on the Indian strategists....

 

[sparten]

I don’t really understand the obsession with fixed wing carriers, we share a border with our adversary???

Well since we have access to open ocean, and our SLOCS are likely tonne threatened. And we need AD for the fleet and ship base SAMS aren’t going to cut it.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Isn't it same for pakistan , a single agni 1 p test was enough to freak a lot of people out , it haven't been tested twice for development of asbm out of it

LOL!!! The Taliban fighters have put their AK-47s on the table at the Afgan Presidential Palace, and the entire Hindutva have gone into a psychological paralysis mode!! Modi has rushed to Gujrat to reinforce the Somnath Temple.....

 

[Metal 0-1]

Can this recover/retrieve the fixed-wing drones?

Use arresting nests or May have yo loose one row for Runway as @JamD mentioned use arresting hooks.

More drones can be stored in lower decks.

Quad-packed?lol Will take down all the aircraft on the planet.

Best thing about this is, Enemy Aircraft and ships will think ; "Huh, an oil tanker"

Next thing they know is a volley of AShm and SAMs are coming for them.

 

[Akh1112]

I'd work towards 8 Jinnah-class frigates. I'm good with the 3,300-ton displacement, but I'd try getting a 32-cell VLS system (I honestly think there's enough room) with quad-packability. Otherwise, I'm good with the ship overall, especially knowing it may carry the P-282 ASBM.

In the long run, I'd gradually work the F-22P out of the "major surface vessel" rotation. It'll hit 20 years of age from 2030, so I expect NHQ will start drawing up its replacement. I think the next natural step would be a 4,000-5,000-ton frigate with long-range AAW capability. Perhaps an evolution of the J-Class?

It wouldn't surprise me if the PN loads up on additional AIP-equipped submarines, including shallow-water attack (SWAT) boats. We know UUVs are coming as well. But it would be interesting if we delve into XLUUVs and autonomous operating capabilities down the line.

I also like the stealthy FAC idea. However, I wonder if there's value in taking it a step further by designing or pursuing a 200-300-ton USV capable of 50-60 knots. Basically, fit it with supersonic ASCMs and/or long-range LACMs. Build by the dozens for A2/AD and, potentially, being a pest for India's coastline.

See, I disagree, I really dislike AShBM’s, there’s a lot of problems that come with them, we don’t have the ISR network needed to be able to employ them, they’re also not ideal for anything that isn’t a really big and slow moving target. Just look at the cm400akg, it’s entire role is to take out really slow and large ships, even then, I’d question its efficacy because well, carriers can go fast. If p282 actually equips these ships, I can tell you now, it’s going to be a cm400akg type design where it’s not really a ballistic missile, rather, one that follows a ballistic trajectory, which then, I’d once again, question the efficacy of. What makes this worse is that it raises questions about SMASH for me. I’d expect that to equip these ships, not a quasi ballistic missile, I really think this is probably one of the stupider decisions the PN has made if it actually equips these with a cm400akg type missile, heck, I’d rather import atmaca than put those on there.

I don’t particularly have a preference for usvs or manned platforms, there’s some issues with usvs pertaining to their communications link and it’s survivability, but yeah, I don’t have a particular preference really.

WRT to submarines, yeah I’m on the same page, it seems like the PN is still pursuing more, looks good from my perspective.

but as I said, I’d be really careful about the p282, there’s a lot of problems with anti ship ballistic missiles, and swapping out the main armament of the ship for them is an utterly awful idea.

however, being realistic here, what I think has happened is that SMASH doesn’t actually have a public ally announced name, thus, Asfat took what they had, I.e the p282 and put it on there as a placeholder. I’m really hoping the PN does not go for it on board ships.

Well since we have access to open ocean, and our SLOCS are likely tonne threatened. And we need AD for the fleet and ship base SAMS aren’t going to cut it.

shockingly you can do that from land bases

 

[Zarvan]

6 to 8 of these if they cover entire Pakistani waters will be great for us. Along with Patrol Crafts which have both Anti Ship missiles as well as torpedo tubes for mini torpedo's presented by Turkish Navy.

 

[Dreamer.]

Do you guys think we would need a destroyer or a destroyer could be there somewhere in PNs procurement plan for this decade ?

Already mentioned by some knowledgeable members that a destroyer is in the plans but the 'when' is not decided yet. At the very least it will be after all Type-054 and Milgem are inducted.