Comparison of IN and PN

[happybirthdaytoyou]

Yu said no future projects!!!:read:

Dear Respected Friends

future projects mean willing to buy or under constructions


Regards


happybirthdaytoyou

 

[Jay_]

The Chinese navy is a great excuse for indian navy chiefs to demand budget increases. However i think India's miltiary structure is unbalanced with too little funds allocated to the Navy compared to what the army gets.

Are you expecting a naval expeditionary force for the subcontinent?? India's enemies can very well be reached by their foot soldiers, so the Navy is a stabilizing force as they said in the article.

 

[happybirthdaytoyou]

Dear Members


Pakistan surface fleet is bit small as compare to Indian Navy. But i hope Pakistan Submarine fleet and Maritime Patrol Aircraft Fleet will give a tough fight to Indian Navy.

And if your Maritime petroling is better nobody will ever able to block your sea

Regards


happybirthdaytoyou

 

[happybirthdaytoyou]

Dear Respected Members

As far as TU-142 is concern

As from wikpedia
The TU-142 is one of the noisiest aircraft in the world. It is so loud that submarine crews could detect it during dives.

Regrads


happybirthdaytoyou

 

[happybirthdaytoyou]

Dear Respected Friends

There is Something Interesting

Boeing wants Indian Navy to buy its P-8A aircraft


NEW DELHI, MAY 3: Boeing Corporation would like to enter into a commercial agreement with India for eight P-8A multi-mission maritime aircraft (MMA) for the Navy.

Talking to FE, company officials said, “Boeing’s proposal includes the development of a unique Indian Navy P-8 configuration, a significant participation for Indian industry, test and certification activities and eight aircraft delivered over a four year period.”

The participation by India is significant, as the MMA is based on the Boeing 737-800 commercial airliner, featuring twin CFM56-7 jet engines, by the General Electric. “We have proposed a unique system that will enhance the capability of the Indian navy in anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare” said Rick Buck, the Boeing programme manager for P-8A international programmes.

Boeing and its team have submitted their proposal for P-8A maritime patrol planes for India’s navy. The plan calls for eight aircraft that would extend India’s surveillance and anti-submarine warfare capabilities.

“Additionally,” he said, “the commonality inherent in our solution will greatly enhance the inter-operability and supportability objectives publicly supported by both the US and Indian navies.”


f the deal goes through, the addition of the aircraft would match Pakistan’s recent contract for upgrades to its Lockheed-Martin P3 patrol planes, which according to experts would have given Pakistan an edge in surveillance capabilities over India.

Regards

happybirthdaytoyou

 

[niaz]

The debate about the relative capabilities of IN and PN is absurd.
PN is a pigmy compared to IN.

PC-3 is just a capable LMPR but it is only a part of the naval air arm. Main purpose of any Navy is:

1. To keep sea lanes and harbours clear in the event of war.

2. To deny the enemy use of their sea lanes and their harbours.

3. To project power far beyond its shores to impose her will on the enemy.

PN is currently not capable to keep its sea lanes clear. In 2002 when India threatened war on Pakistan by massing its troops on the border in the after math of the attack on Indian Parliament. IN was getting ready to blockade Karachi. Acquisition of PC-3's fleet is merely to forestall this situation in future.

India has a very large fleet (16 ) of SSK and one SSN. Such a force is huge comparted to Pakistani SSK fleet. Thus PN would not be in a position to enforce blockade of any Indian port and India has a lot of ports whereas Pakistan really has only one. At best PN SSK's be able to interdict some shipping and or make trouble for Indian surface fleet.

PN surface fleet is no match to IN surface fleet. India can project power far off from its shores ( say East Africa) through MIG 29 and Harrier carrying Aircraft Carriers. PN would be hard put to defend our shore from enemy vessels and aircraft.

Thus despite being patriotic, I have to admit that there is really no comparison in the capabilities of Indian and Pakistan navies.

 

[sigatoka]

1. IN was getting ready to blockade Karachi. Acquisition of PC-3's fleet is merely to forestall this situation in future.

2. India has a very large fleet (16 ) of SSK and one SSN. Such a force is huge comparted to Pakistani SSK fleet.

3. Thus PN would not be in a position to enforce blockade of any Indian port and India has a lot of ports whereas Pakistan really has only one.

4. PN surface fleet is no match to IN surface fleet. India can project power far off from its shores ( say East Africa) through MIG 29 and Harrier carrying Aircraft Carriers.

1. IN has never demonstrated a capability for full blockade of Karachi, but it has become a moot point with Gwadar.

2. It is large, but large enough to enforce a blockade of Karachi and Gwadar? I wouldnt think so.

3. Why would PN want to blockade Indian ports? Pak. has 2

4. East Africa doenst have planes armed with anti-ship missiles. It doesnt have numerous surface launched anti ship missiles. PN together with ground units armed with anti-ship missiles and planes should be able to prevent the blockade of both Karachi and Gwadar. Also with the increasing trade network by land with Iran, a lot of essential imports could be met through the land corridor.

 

[lulldapull]

I think ......like Niaz has mentioned that there is really no comaprison between the IN and PN fleets. In many a simulated scenario of wargaming which PN high comand regularly conducts, the biggest factor for the PN would be the plethora of medium range missile boats that the IN has deployed. There are at least 25 of these (Veer/ Tarantul), Far outnumbering and out gunning the total PN fleet. the fairly large and capably 'Sindhugosh' or Kilo arm is a massive threat to PN's surface shipping. The Kilo's are fast, nimble, have been upgraded with the 3m-54E's, and are everybit as capable if not more than the Agosta-90B's. Besides the biggest bang for the buck comes in because the IN has 9 of them.

But before I digress again, per some of those wargaming scenario's, the biggest fear in the PN is a saturation type SSM attack right at the onset of the conflict, where the IN will try to deal a death blow to the PN by lauching scores of its Brahmos and other land based SSM's at the keamari terminal/ Port Qasim or this Gwader.

To offset such a massive force is the reason why the P-3's have been acquired. But in all honesty once the Admiral Gorshkov and this Viraat are deployed 200 miles off Karachi, I can't imagine the P-3's flying at all. PN Surveillence Aircraft flying out of PNS Mehran have been regularly intercepted out at sea by the IN, with little or no warning. This is another reason to get the P-3C capability on board to some how offset the massive IN sensor capability in the North Arabian Sea.

Here's an excerpt from ACIG showing that just how many times these lumbering F-27-200's and the ancient Atlantiques have been surprised by the INAS 300 'Tiger' sqd. Harriers, Including an unsuspecting KC-10 of the USAF

 

[Sid]

Precisely because that is what they can do, surprise 'ancient' aircraft. Current P-3Cs have all been upgraded to US Navy standards and there is no reason why they should be 'surprised' as their predecessors with their inferior technology were.

Plus, Pakistan is acquiring Erieyes and negotiations are underway to acquire Chinese AWACS. One would reckon, the 'Tigers' would have to risk much to get even close to their 'prey' next time around.

 

[Awesome]

What about other factors, Sid? We all do know Pak lags behind in the Navy perhaps a lot more than even the Air Force. What would we need to counter the threat of submarines, Air Craft carriers and perhaps those missile boats as well?

We don't have the option to buy more than what they have.

Perhaps longer ranged naval versions of the Babur? The farther we keep them our basic objectives of "defending" the coast line is met.

 

[lulldapull]

Yaar in all honesty if I were the PN Admiral incharge of this small PN. At the onset of war or indications of it......the trick would be to scramble all of PN's surface combatants out of range into Oman and Bandar Abbas waters, (or be prepared to take very painful and expensive losses early on) As is the phalanx/ ECM/ decoy suites on the Type-21's wont be able to deal with a Mach4+ Brahmos skimming in from 150 miles away. Let the Agosta's deal with the massed IN's missile boat fleet, or allow the dedicated dozen Mirages to sort them out with pot shots with the am.39's. Leave some smaller boats for coastal patrolling. The problem is that the PN is not only outnumbered, but outclassed technologically. the upgraded talwar class (Krivak III's) are lethal boats with some serious signature reduction already designed in their upgrades. They all carry the Switchblades/ kub's and a very extensive VDS suite. the older Kashin's are still fairly capable and can hold their own. The serious over whelmer comes in with the dozens of Vir and Tarantul's which also carry the Kub's and have the range and endurance to confidently take on the larger Type-21's of the PN. With the large INAS Prowling bear's carrying the Sea Eagle, the upgraded IL-38's with their new sensor outfit, and the pending acquisitions of 3 x Tu-22M3's with possibly an AS-6 loadout or the Yakhont (Brahmos's daddy) just totally lopsides it yaar. Its not even a fight guys.....Unless PN acquires a dozen or so Aegis or similar. But even the Aegis is vulnerable to a Yakhont or Brahmos. With the induction of the Gorshkov + 2 dozen Mig-29K navalised Fulcrums its just fricking over kill man. The Mirage VPA-3's cannot handle a Mig-29K...there is a technological generation gap there!

This is essentially history repeating itself. back in 1971 the PN severly underestimated the N-2 Styx, and it wreaked havoc on Keamari terminal (effectively shutting PN down and confining it to Keamari). It was literally a blockade imposed by the little Osa-1 class boats. I wonder if these guys are still dissmissing the threat posed by the large IN's supersonic missile inventory and its delivery platforms.

 

[Awesome]

I guess another thing that would to PN good to learn from Hezbollah's defence against the IsN is the use of missiles. India's Brahmos is good but lacks range. Pakistan already has a longer ranged missile with a longer ranged version a lot closer than Brahmos's next update.

I doubt they are dismissing the threat, Musharraf has been keen on upgrading the Navy. What's your understanding on why Pakistan's heavily investing in acquiring frigates from three sources (Turkey, Greece and China)?

 

[sigatoka]

1. Yaar in all honesty if I were the PN Admiral incharge of this small PN. At the onset of war or indications of it......the trick would be to scramble all of PN's surface combatants out of range into Oman and Bandar Abbas waters, (or be prepared to take very painful and expensive losses early on)

2. As is the phalanx/ ECM/ decoy suites on the Type-21's wont be able to deal with a Mach4+ Brahmos skimming in from 150 miles away.

3. Let the Agosta's deal with the massed IN's missile boat fleet, or allow the dedicated dozen Mirages to sort them out with pot shots with the am.39's. Leave some smaller boats for coastal patrolling.

4. The problem is that the PN is not only outnumbered, but outclassed technologically. the upgraded talwar class (Krivak III's) are lethal boats with some serious signature reduction already designed in their upgrades.

5. and the pending acquisitions of 3 x Tu-22M3's with possibly an AS-6 loadout or the Yakhont (Brahmos's daddy) just totally lopsides it yaar. Its not even a fight guys.....

6. Unless PN acquires a dozen or so Aegis or similar. But even the Aegis is vulnerable to a Yakhont or Brahmos.

7. With the induction of the Gorshkov + 2 dozen Mig-29K navalised Fulcrums its just fricking over kill man. The Mirage VPA-3's cannot handle a Mig-29K...there is a technological generation gap there!

8. This is essentially history repeating itself. back in 1971 the PN severly underestimated the N-2 Styx, and it wreaked havoc on Keamari terminal (effectively shutting PN down and confining it to Keamari). It was literally a blockade imposed by the little Osa-1 class boats. I wonder if these guys are still dissmissing the threat posed by the large IN's supersonic missile inventory and its delivery platforms.

1. That would be a good plan if PN was facing U.S. navy or British navy, not the Indian navy.

2. The Brahmos hasnt scored any combat kills. What exactly are you basing this claim on?

3. Why exactly cant the PN missile boat fleel engage the IN missile boat fleet? The PN will inflict damage while it is taking it, the IN is not so technologically advanced that it will dish out all the pain while receiving none.

4. The PN navy is outnumbered but outclassed? Indians are the only ones who actually claim their rickety boats are stealth.

5. It is lopsided if the PN was actually fighting the IN on the high seas, it is not.

6. A dozen Aegis would result in the destruction of the IN.

7. 2 dozen pathetic Mig-29's that have never actually performed well in combat is an overkill?

8. 71 was different, attempts were made to resupply East Pakistan and the role of the navy then wasnt as focussed narrowly as it is now.

IN's supersonice missile inventory is too inaccurate to be of great use in the land attack mode unless several hundred could be launched against a target like a major port. Clearly the IN does not have this capability unless it is willing to undertake severe losses.

Land attack missiles unless they are reasonably accurate or launced en-mass are not very effective. Hezbollah launched thousands to kill only 11 or so Israeli soldiers.

 

[Awesome]

Land attack missiles unless they are reasonably accurate or launced en-mass are not very effective. Hezbollah launched thousands to kill only 11 or so Israeli soldiers.

But they got the kills they needed with the anti-ship missiles. Forcing the ships to back off out of range.

 

[joey]

1. That would be a good plan if PN was facing U.S. navy or British navy, not the Indian navy.

2. The Brahmos hasnt scored any combat kills. What exactly are you basing this claim on?

3. Why exactly cant the PN missile boat fleel engage the IN missile boat fleet? The PN will inflict damage while it is taking it, the IN is not so technologically advanced that it will dish out all the pain while receiving none.

4. The PN navy is outnumbered but outclassed? Indians are the only ones who actually claim their rickety boats are stealth.

5. It is lopsided if the PN was actually fighting the IN on the high seas, it is not.

6. A dozen Aegis would result in the destruction of the IN.

7. 2 dozen pathetic Mig-29's that have never actually performed well in combat is an overkill?

8. 71 was different, attempts were made to resupply East Pakistan and the role of the navy then wasnt as focussed narrowly as it is now.

IN's supersonice missile inventory is too inaccurate to be of great use in the land attack mode unless several hundred could be launched against a target like a major port. Clearly the IN does not have this capability unless it is willing to undertake severe losses.

Land attack missiles unless they are reasonably accurate or launced en-mass are not very effective. Hezbollah launched thousands to kill only 11 or so Israeli soldiers.

With all due respect to PN as they r soldiers I'll say PN is no match for IN.
your saying just being nationalistic. if your logical its not.

1> no comment on that. PN have 100% guts to face IN.
2>F22 scored combat kills? latest AEGIS did? Virginia Class SSN did? Wire guided ATGM did? al khalid did? Babur did? Agni did? topol-m did? munite man 3 did? peacekeeper did? sunburn did?
so its baseless talk.
btw u shud have seen the live warhead picture of brahmos hitting in its 10th test...amazing thing.

3> its because they are backed up by more subs than PN with 3x larger frigates than pakistan has which has SIGNIFICANT sonar capability including indigenous sonars and K5x series helicopters .... sorry i cant draw a conclusion what not.
5> High seas? its unlikely IN/PN will meet in high seas.
6> a Dozen Aegis? hmmm last time i recalled how many Aegis Japan has??? and also umm Us/japan isnt gonna get in war with IN.
If Aegis will come to attack IN u can be assured we'll have BlackjacksAkula 2 SSN's ready for that matter.get a aegis then talk,
7>sheehs mig 29K "K" pathetic? its TOTALLY DIFF FROM MIG 29.further the MIG 29K IN is getting is DIFFERENT FROM mig 29k of russian standards.
8> yes ofcourse attempts are made and should be made by PN.

remember anything bout USS stark???


Asim Aqil > Brahmos is not only yakhont but has its roots in the GRANIT shipwreck missile AWESOME THING IN THT TIME.its a fusion of both.
one more thing, Brahmos Range is highly unlikely 300 kms...its definitely more than that as experts said in diff forums however for the sake of data let it be 300.
another thing Harry said in keypub forums ones "hes a mod and hes from acig too" Brahmos was tested on a arial target ones the helicopter was moved away from its place, brahmos homed into the target automatically even when the target was moved away.. speaks a lot.