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Comparison between LCA Tejas and JF-17 Thunder in an A-to-A Scenario

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First read Auditor generals report then rant OK.
Ya.. I would believe a Incompetent sarkari Babu... over Director of the LCA project.... LOL

But then again question is ..What component of the JF 17 is manufactured in Pakistan... I know they can possibly make Canopy and some fasteners ..as per PAC Kamra website.
 
First read Auditor generals report then rant OK.
Unfortunately there is no official link to cag report....what you are trying to prove was only reported in TOI
 
Designed in India....
Each and every body panel is designed and Manufactured in India..
Flight Control System is Designed and made in India


More than 70% of Tejas components are Made in India...‘Indigenous production of LCA soon’ - TAMIL NADU - The Hindu

Now you tell me ..what component of JF 17 is made in Pakistan.
so in short a pakistani member @sSpy Master makes a LCA Vs JF-17 thread but the mods and admin keep quite :astagh:

but the fact remains LCA is a point defnce fighter with an american engine with israeli avionikcs and wepons is third line fighter of inland air defnce/homeland security and will probaballi never cross the border even in case of a indo pak war

LCA is compared here to a chinese fighter with russian engine and every thing else chinese and is onli assambelled from semi knocked down chinese kits in PAC Kamra by PAF and JF 17 is onli fighter that PAF can afford to buy (while even chinese are not buying it)

thats why PAF inducted JF-17 even though it cant fire from its gun or do precission strikes or carry owt such roles even in night but has some 50+ exampels flying and "will get in JF-17s so called block II & III" things like what LCA needs to be ready to get its FOC without which IAF wont give a considerabelli large order

rest you know what i mean :sarcastic:
 
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Ya.. I would believe a Incompetent sarkari Babu... over Director of the LCA project.... LOL

But then again question is ..What component of the JF 17 is manufactured in Pakistan... I know they can possibly make Canopy and some fasteners ..as per PAC Kamra website.
Joint ventured moron 53% parts manufactured in Pakistan
@Windjammer
Pls sir give some details

Unfortunately there is no official link to cag report....what you are trying to prove was only reported in TOI
http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/...rformance/2015/Defence/Report_17/17of2015.pdf
 
Joint ventured moron 53% parts manufactured in Pakistan
@Windjammer
Pls sir give some details


http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/...rformance/2015/Defence/Report_17/17of2015.pdf
Thanks for the report
Anyways i missed to catch your point on tejas
your point was?

There is a diff bet manufacturing and designing......sure i agree that kamra manufactures 58 Percent of thunders airframe....

Joint ventured moron 53% parts manufactured in Pakistan
@Windjammer
Pls sir give some details


http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/...rformance/2015/Defence/Report_17/17of2015.pdf
Thanks for the report
Anyways i missed to catch your point on tejas
your point was?

There is a diff bet manufacturing and designing......sure i agree that kamra manufactures 58 Percent of thunders airframe....
 
You are a looser with no sense of talking ,Yes once Block 3 design emerges it will be ,wait Teja will still be waiting for orders from IAF and Rafael will be in negotiation for Make in India .Now happy or you need me to get to your level .


Biggest comparison is JF-17 and F-35, why MIG 29UPG, Mirrage UPG, Jaguar Darlin-3

Both are inducted and flying
Both total strength 70 + / 100 +
Both don't have FOC
Both meant for Export in large Qty
Both have two tails
Both are Single engine
Both can fly
Both have wings
Both have air refuel probe
Both have Radars and BVR
Both can fire missile and drop bomb
Both are needed to counter IAF
 

:omghaha::omghaha::omghaha:

Kid do you know the meaning of AESA or PESA

No you moron. Only you know that AESA radar does not make an aircraft superior. All those engineers and companies must be dumb and full of sh1t in their head to make AESA radar. Einsteins like you are the reason why India is still a developing country.

@Topic This news article might throw light on why IAF is forced to buy the obsolete Tejas which acording to some brainiacs is a 4+ gen fighter and is super duper even without AESA.

Narendra Modi pushes ‘obsolete’ made-in-India Tejas jet on IAF

The government has turned down the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

The push for India’s struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when IAF is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military’s addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world’s top importer.

The IAF wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

But a defence ministry official said that defence minister Manohar Parrikar had told the air force that there weren’t enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

“The IAF needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints,” the defence official said.

“The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category.”

The IAF says it requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a “two-front collusive threat” from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament’s defence committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the IAF would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the IAF due for induction in 1994.

Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world’s most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

“In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are,” said an IAF officer speaking on condition of anonymity.

Safety concerns

An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) into the LCA programme identified 53 “shortfalls” in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn’t as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defence Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today’s war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges.”

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the IAF could win a war with.

“We would like to have the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind,” the head of the IAF, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.

But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO’s aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.

“Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues,” he said.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the IAF’s demands, he said.

“We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other—at blaming it all on Indian production.”

Dassault declined any comment on the government’s decision to cap the Rafale fleet.

A source close to Sweden’s Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India’s decision to try to develop its domestic military base.

“There’s still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella,” he said. “Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?”

Narendra Modi pushes ‘obsolete’ made-in-India Tejas jet on IAF - Livemint
 
:omghaha::omghaha::omghaha:



No you moron. Only you know that AESA radar does not make an aircraft superior. All those engineers and companies must be dumb and full of sh1t in their head to make AESA radar. Einsteins like you are the reason why India is still a developing country.

@Topic This news article might throw light on why IAF is forced to buy the obsolete Tejas which acording to some brainiacs is a 4+ gen fighter and is super duper even without AESA.

Narendra Modi pushes ‘obsolete’ made-in-India Tejas jet on IAF

The government has turned down the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

The push for India’s struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when IAF is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military’s addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world’s top importer.

The IAF wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

But a defence ministry official said that defence minister Manohar Parrikar had told the air force that there weren’t enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

“The IAF needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints,” the defence official said.

“The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category.”

The IAF says it requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a “two-front collusive threat” from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament’s defence committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the IAF would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the IAF due for induction in 1994.

Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world’s most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

“In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are,” said an IAF officer speaking on condition of anonymity.

Safety concerns

An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) into the LCA programme identified 53 “shortfalls” in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn’t as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defence Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today’s war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges.”

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the IAF could win a war with.

“We would like to have the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind,” the head of the IAF, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.

But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO’s aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.

“Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues,” he said.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the IAF’s demands, he said.

“We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other—at blaming it all on Indian production.”

Dassault declined any comment on the government’s decision to cap the Rafale fleet.

A source close to Sweden’s Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India’s decision to try to develop its domestic military base.

“There’s still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella,” he said. “Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?”

Narendra Modi pushes ‘obsolete’ made-in-India Tejas jet on IAF - Livemint
Tejas grounded after snag in landing gear | The Asian Age:yes2:
 
Another news article that damns the obsolete Tejas.

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter

The Air Force has decided to place an order for 100 new and improved Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. However, despite being in the works since 1983, the light fighter is nowhere near indigenisation and almost 70% of the aircraft's systems still need to be imported.

  1. An audit by the CAG brought out that despite claims that only 35% of the fighter depends on foreign systems, the actual figure is closer to 70%.
  2. Effort to develop the Kaveri engine failed, forcing the purchase of GE 404 powerplants from the US.
  3. Flight control system actuators:

    Considerable development delay leads to purchase from foreign sources.
  4. Multi-mode radar:

    Joint HAL-LRDE project failed, Israeli company roped in.
  5. Radome:

    Initially developed by ASL, failed to meet standards, imported from the UK.

THE DEFICIENCIES

The Air Force and Comptroller and Auditor General identified the following glaring deficiencies in the fighter:

>Lack of a trainer:

The LCA still does not have a certified trainer version to coach pilots.

>Mission simulator:

The lack of a full-mission simulator for the aircraft also a hindrance to training.

> Increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, front pilot protection system weakness, reduced speed key deficiencies.

> Performance issues with the radar warning receiver and counter-measure systems.

> Original sanction for project was Rs 560 crore that has been increased to Rs 10,397 crore.

THE LCA LEGACY

In the works since 1983, the LCA project is an example of how things went off target in Indian research and development.

1983-LCA project sanctioned to replace the MiG 21 fleet. Technical specifi cations framed in 1985.

1998-Was the target date for the induction with a total projected requirement for 220 fighters.

2001-The actual first flight of the aircraft took place, five years behind schedule.

2013-It took an agonising 12 years from first flight to an initial operational clearance in which the aircraft met basic parameters.

2014-The first LCA is inducted but is still not combat worthy. Several defi ciencies remain, besides incomplete weapons tests and integration.

2015-Government asks IAF to order 100 more of an improved version of the LCA. This in addition to an earlier order for 20.

WHAT THE IAF WANTS NOW

To be able to commit fully to an order for 100 more LCA fighters, the Air Force wants these four things to be in place at the earliest:

> Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar to track incoming targets

> Integration of a long range beyond-visual-range missile

> Air-to-Air refuelling capability to enhance its range

> Modern electronic warfare capability to enhance survivability of the aircraft


Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter - The Economic Times

Tejas grounded after snag in landing gear | The Asian Age

The Tejas is so obsolete and it is such an obvious fact that people lose out on patience to state the obvious. It is like a child asking you why is the sun a star and not just a big planet. Because stars are five pointed shapes that come out and blink only at night but the sun comes out during the day. You try to be patient and explain but then you give up because it is simply frustrating to keep repeating the same things again and again.

A lot of Indian posters here started calling me a false flag because I burst their bubble. Two of the TTA even went on giving me negative ratings because I made them look stupid. But I guess the facts need to be showed on their face again and again.

@DRDOFans

The newspapers carrying the news are Indian and the journalists who wrote them are also Indian. So stop hiding behind the "he is false-flag" defence and come out of illusions.
 
Another news article that damns the obsolete Tejas.

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter

The Air Force has decided to place an order for 100 new and improved Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. However, despite being in the works since 1983, the light fighter is nowhere near indigenisation and almost 70% of the aircraft's systems still need to be imported.

  1. An audit by the CAG brought out that despite claims that only 35% of the fighter depends on foreign systems, the actual figure is closer to 70%.
  2. Effort to develop the Kaveri engine failed, forcing the purchase of GE 404 powerplants from the US.
  3. Flight control system actuators:

    Considerable development delay leads to purchase from foreign sources.
  4. Multi-mode radar:

    Joint HAL-LRDE project failed, Israeli company roped in.
  5. Radome:

    Initially developed by ASL, failed to meet standards, imported from the UK.

THE DEFICIENCIES

The Air Force and Comptroller and Auditor General identified the following glaring deficiencies in the fighter:

>Lack of a trainer:

The LCA still does not have a certified trainer version to coach pilots.

>Mission simulator:

The lack of a full-mission simulator for the aircraft also a hindrance to training.

> Increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, front pilot protection system weakness, reduced speed key deficiencies.

> Performance issues with the radar warning receiver and counter-measure systems.

> Original sanction for project was Rs 560 crore that has been increased to Rs 10,397 crore.

THE LCA LEGACY

In the works since 1983, the LCA project is an example of how things went off target in Indian research and development.

1983-LCA project sanctioned to replace the MiG 21 fleet. Technical specifi cations framed in 1985.

1998-Was the target date for the induction with a total projected requirement for 220 fighters.

2001-The actual first flight of the aircraft took place, five years behind schedule.

2013-It took an agonising 12 years from first flight to an initial operational clearance in which the aircraft met basic parameters.

2014-The first LCA is inducted but is still not combat worthy. Several defi ciencies remain, besides incomplete weapons tests and integration.

2015-Government asks IAF to order 100 more of an improved version of the LCA. This in addition to an earlier order for 20.

WHAT THE IAF WANTS NOW

To be able to commit fully to an order for 100 more LCA fighters, the Air Force wants these four things to be in place at the earliest:

> Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar to track incoming targets

> Integration of a long range beyond-visual-range missile

> Air-to-Air refuelling capability to enhance its range

> Modern electronic warfare capability to enhance survivability of the aircraft


Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter - The Economic Times



The Tejas is so obsolete and it is such an obvious fact that people lose out on patience to state the obvious. It is like a child asking you why is the sun a star and not just a big planet. Because stars are five pointed shapes that come out and blink only at night but the sun comes out during the day. You try to be patient and explain but then you give up because it is simply frustrating to keep repeating the same things again and again.

A lot of Indian posters here started calling me a false flag because I burst their bubble. Two of the TTA even went on giving me negative ratings because I made them look stupid. But I guess the facts need to be showed on their face again and again.

@DRDOFans

The newspapers carrying the news are Indian and the journalists who wrote them are also Indian. So stop hiding behind the "he is false-flag" defence and come out of illusions.
Most of the deficiency will be meat by FOC next year 2016. But you didn't answer my question

What do you think about the JF-17 capabilities excluding Induction in PAF
 
The Tejas cannot even defend itself against 7.62mm bullets. :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:

It had earlier agreed to induct 40 Tejas', an aircraft that India's national auditor CAG said had severe flaws with "shortfalls in meeting the engine thrust and other parameters such as weight of the aircraft, fuel capacity, pilot protection from front against 7.62 mm bullets."

The IAF agreed to induct the flawed aircraft to keep the Tejas programme alive.


Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft

Most of the deficiency will be meat by FOC next year 2016

Don't quote me again. I don't have any patience for trolls and stupids, especially the ones who think AESA is just a hoax and not worth it.

The LCA cannot even defend against 7.62 mm bullets, if the JF-17 can do that then it would be a better fighter.

The Tejas Mark 2, expected to address the flaws in the Mark 1-A, will not be ready for induction or series production before 2024-2025.

Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft


By that time aircraft can move on to a newer generation and India would still be stuck with this junk called LCA.
 
The Tejas cannot even defend itself against 7.62mm bullets. :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:

It had earlier agreed to induct 40 Tejas', an aircraft that India's national auditor CAG said had severe flaws with "shortfalls in meeting the engine thrust and other parameters such as weight of the aircraft, fuel capacity, pilot protection from front against 7.62 mm bullets."

The IAF agreed to induct the flawed aircraft to keep the Tejas programme alive.


Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft



Don't quote me again. I don't have any patience for trolls and stupids, especially the ones who think AESA is just a hoax and not worth it.

The LCA cannot even defend against 7.62 mm bullets, if the JF-17 can do that then it would be a better fighter.

The Tejas Mark 2, expected to address the flaws in the Mark 1-A, will not be ready for induction or series production before 2024-2025.

Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark 1-A Fighter Aircraft


By that time aircraft can move on to a newer generation and India would still be stuck with this junk called LCA.
But you didn't answer my question

What do you think about the JF-17 capabilities excluding Induction in PAF


Another news article that damns the obsolete Tejas.

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter

The Air Force has decided to place an order for 100 new and improved Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. However, despite being in the works since 1983, the light fighter is nowhere near indigenisation and almost 70% of the aircraft's systems still need to be imported.

  1. An audit by the CAG brought out that despite claims that only 35% of the fighter depends on foreign systems, the actual figure is closer to 70%.
  2. Effort to develop the Kaveri engine failed, forcing the purchase of GE 404 powerplants from the US.
  3. Flight control system actuators:

    Considerable development delay leads to purchase from foreign sources.
  4. Multi-mode radar:

    Joint HAL-LRDE project failed, Israeli company roped in.
  5. Radome:

    Initially developed by ASL, failed to meet standards, imported from the UK.

THE DEFICIENCIES

The Air Force and Comptroller and Auditor General identified the following glaring deficiencies in the fighter:

>Lack of a trainer:

The LCA still does not have a certified trainer version to coach pilots.

>Mission simulator:

The lack of a full-mission simulator for the aircraft also a hindrance to training.

> Increased weight, reduced internal fuel capacity, front pilot protection system weakness, reduced speed key deficiencies.

> Performance issues with the radar warning receiver and counter-measure systems.

> Original sanction for project was Rs 560 crore that has been increased to Rs 10,397 crore.

THE LCA LEGACY

In the works since 1983, the LCA project is an example of how things went off target in Indian research and development.

1983-LCA project sanctioned to replace the MiG 21 fleet. Technical specifi cations framed in 1985.

1998-Was the target date for the induction with a total projected requirement for 220 fighters.

2001-The actual first flight of the aircraft took place, five years behind schedule.

2013-It took an agonising 12 years from first flight to an initial operational clearance in which the aircraft met basic parameters.

2014-The first LCA is inducted but is still not combat worthy. Several defi ciencies remain, besides incomplete weapons tests and integration.

2015-Government asks IAF to order 100 more of an improved version of the LCA. This in addition to an earlier order for 20.

WHAT THE IAF WANTS NOW

To be able to commit fully to an order for 100 more LCA fighters, the Air Force wants these four things to be in place at the earliest:

> Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar to track incoming targets

> Integration of a long range beyond-visual-range missile

> Air-to-Air refuelling capability to enhance its range

> Modern electronic warfare capability to enhance survivability of the aircraft


Tejas Light Combat Aircraft: The not so Indian fighter - The Economic Times



The Tejas is so obsolete and it is such an obvious fact that people lose out on patience to state the obvious. It is like a child asking you why is the sun a star and not just a big planet. Because stars are five pointed shapes that come out and blink only at night but the sun comes out during the day. You try to be patient and explain but then you give up because it is simply frustrating to keep repeating the same things again and again.

A lot of Indian posters here started calling me a false flag because I burst their bubble. Two of the TTA even went on giving me negative ratings because I made them look stupid. But I guess the facts need to be showed on their face again and again.

@DRDOFans

The newspapers carrying the news are Indian and the journalists who wrote them are also Indian. So stop hiding behind the "he is false-flag" defence and come out of illusions.


But you didn't answer my question

What do you think about the JF-17 capabilities excluding Induction in PAF
 
But you didn't answer my question

What do you think about the JF-17 capabilities excluding Induction in PAF





But you didn't answer my question

What do you think about the JF-17 capabilities excluding Induction in PAF

PDF already knows that you are a retard. You don't need to prove it again and again. If you don't know to read it is not my fault. Don't keep quoting me needlessly you moron. Just how stupid can people be?
 
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