Clueless on China

[Chinese-Dragon]

China thinks AP is its trump card in case of negotiations. They have no real intentions of annexing AP.

But you never know what these ******** politicians are upto.

I think Chinese leadership is in a position to put an end to this dispute once and for all.

From your posts I think you understand China better than most.

Also we have a saying 'One who forgives is a man, one who asks for forgiveness is a greater man' (rough translation)

It is more noble to go down to the level of the lesser guy and make deal. We respect that more, the entire world does.

The problem is that we do NOT see India as the "lesser guy" because Chinese think in the long-term. In the long-term we are afraid that India will become too powerful.

Consider that China and India are strategic rivals and look at it from the point of view of the politicians. Perhaps they feel rivalry between China and India serves their strategic purposes.

If you want to understand China's behaviour you really need to read up on the issue of "face" because it is quite complicated for outsiders (especially non-Asians) to grasp. In return, we Chinese should try harder to understand Indian sociology. I do read a lot about Indian social and cultural concepts in my spare time, but I plan to read a lot more.

 

[RAHUL INDIAN]

There is no advantage of annexing AP. This is a lot of repercussion for Chinese leader if they give up AP without any good reason! This is the historical burden Chinese leader needs to shoulder.

I do not know if you "low" IQ is able to comprehend that! By the way, British created AP for India. Blame China if you want

chinese can control its population easily..dont give me that crap...
it China wants it can accept current boundary demarcation as border....

the real reason is as given by Chinese-Dragon

In the long-term we are afraid that India will become too powerful.

Perhaps they feel rivalry between China and India serves their strategic purposes.

he is first chinese to accept the reality.

the real thing is,
China is deliberately keeping this as an issue to keep its option open.(i.e for strategic purposes). Now why.?? thats becasue as put above,

China fears India getting to become top economic n military power... It is using different means to try to block Indian progress, be it AP, or using Pakistan also. Now what if it sees India surging ahead of China, well then China would like to use its strategic resources..

Pak and AP..

So it will not mind doing another 1962 at all, if it thinks it can get away with it, so as to stop India becoming really developed and/or to prevent India going ahead then CHina.
Whereas India doesnt beleive in blocking others way of development, and beleives in its own hard work. But China is not a fair player. It wants to acheive hegemony by any means. Right or wrong is not what it is concerned about.

That is why it is using all means to tie down India, but i am sure India will ome out trumps coz China has cheated India once in 1962, it wont be able to do it again. Coz now India is already on the march to becoming a power both finalcially and militarily.....

But in the meatime India must keep up the vigil on Chinese activities.

 

[mike05]

Unfortunately, I too think a war in the near future is imminent. It is never good for either china or India, but unless we take a step back, put aside our egos, hurt and show gestures of goodwill we are definitely in for a war.

Let me play out a scenario.

Thing is, with the current situation China wont want to initiate a war because it doesnt want to screw up its perfectly well oiled machine of an econoamy and because India is playing it cool not doing anything rash to tick their neighbours off (India cant afford a war now). US and the others are just looking for an opportunity to subdue China. China doesnt want to give them are reason. China has never a good reason to go to war with india. It is content as long as it can intimidate its neighbour at its whim.

But eventually after 10-15 years, using India's good growth, it would have considerably boosted its defence capabillities. Now its military would be far more confident that it can hold off against China. They would say so to the government. With goading from US (read CIA) paid indian Journos and diplomats, the indian government would decide that talks are not goin anywhere. They would start fencing or do aggressive patrolling on the Chinese border. The Chinese, used to India being submissive, wont like this. The tensions would rise. Killing of a soldier or destroying a patrol on either side, due to the uncertain nature of the border demarcation will lead to sides accusing each other and escalation to war.

If there is a republican govt in US, and US has freed itself considerably from it economic mess right now, and gotten itself out of its current wars, would jump at the opportunity to do the proxy war and sell more arms. Russia would sell arms anyway. They will find it as a chance to soften China without sticking their neck out. They want to keep China as a cheap labour to their wantonness and not an economic superpower as it is emerging now. I dont blame them, if you are stupid enough, you ought to be exploited. Our economic clock will be set 30 years back and we will start from scratch.

The hard earned prosperity of China and India would go down the drain of military spending. The funny thing is both China and India don't have any good reason forgoing to/winning a war, no oil to be had, no strategical objective to be completed, no natural resources.

But if the current situation continues, war is bound to happen, whether we like it or not. And its gonna be caused only because of misunderstanding and failed diplomacy.

If you see the scenario above, you will see the main reason for a war would be Indian ego, goaded by the west (this is happening now, india being termed as a military and economic superpower in western media is a calculated move) All Chinese diplomats need to do is to massage India's ego and treat them as equals, instead of treating us as a naughty child who deserves to be *** whupped into submission.
And not provoke india by selling arms to Pakistan. Make your india policy clear. I have a lot of chinese friends, and I find that we asians respect honor more than anything else. So shouldn't we give and get respect? Do we want to go to war over a trivial thing as mis-communication in this age of the internet?

But I know it is almost impossible for the chinese communist regime to soften in front of its 'enemy' and thus show a sign of weakness to its own people and US and others. Hence we are on this sliding course of collision, which is avoidable yet cannot be avoided, playing into the hands of the US and others.

I dont really know/care whose fault was 62'. But it would be China's fault if it repeats. Make no mistake it will happen again if the present situation continues. I am putting the onus for initiative on China because they are the more powerful country of the two and more in a position to be magnanimous. India is already playing to Chinese fiddle, with a smiling face on the outside and with a aching, humiliated heart in the outside looking for the time to negotiate on a level playing ground. And the fact that makes this more stupid is the fact that india-china culture is more similar than china-pakistan culture. Here in the US i can identify myself with and talk to easily with the chinese/taiwanese than I can do with persians/pakistanis. Sigh...

A profound analysis from a person who looks at both sides of the coin. Respect

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

A profound analysis from a person who looks at both sides of the coin. Respect

I agree, great respect to southpaw.

 

[dingyibvs]

We also have the term 'face'. But it is not considered a virtue by all the people. In india, atleast south india, new generation people think of it as the impediment to progress. Also we have a saying 'One who forgives is a man, one who asks for forgiveness is a greater man' (rough translation)

It is more noble to go down to the level of the lesser guy and make deal. We respect that more, the entire world does.

I think Chinese leadership is in a position to put an end to this dispute once and for all, while they are in an advantaged position, and while India hasnt bridged the economic and military divide, by a long shot.

The problem is that the Chinese leadership, as the first 2 posts of this thread stated, have ALREADY offered to settle the border dispute at the LAC, but the GOI refused. Obviously, the Chinese don't expect to get AP, but the GOI shouldn't expect to get Askai Chin either. When India pressed on with their demand for AC, China pressed on with their demand for AP. Thus, China has already offered the olive branch as you recommended, but the Indians have no behaved as you predicted.

 

[oceanx]

... And the fact that makes this more stupid is the fact that india-china culture is more similar than china-pakistan culture. Here in the US i can identify myself with and talk to easily with the chinese/taiwanese than I can do with persians/pakistanis. Sigh...

For a south Indian (I presume), your grasp of the meat of the matter is way exceeding some Yahuls. I concur with much of what you said.

For any Chinese who actually know a thing or two about the cultural evolution in the land of historical China, up until the European arrival (in force and splendor and "trouble"), China has always been more "Indic" than India has been "Sinic" ... although this affinity is more applicable to the classical cultures of north India (for obvious historical/religious/geographical reasons).

BTW, being "Indic" does not imply being "good" - this is a tangent we are not yet prepared to slide down, for now ... and part of this "Indic-ness" was "Iraning/Bactrian/Sogdian pre-islamic brand of Indic-ness" ..

Here comes a "candidly speaking"moment: until Mumbai 26/11, Pakistan wasn't on my personal radar. I saw it as a "new" country in the tradition of Singapore, Israel, or I suppose, Eritrea (no offense intended for that comment).

Culturally, no doubt I felt closer to Indians by far here in NA. That is not to say I haven't warmed up to Punjabi Pakistanis (they are all Punjabis here in Canada anyways). Heck, even the Indians here are mostly Punjabis. For some reasons, I have never gotten to know any Tamils ...

I would say that the "help" I received from three "Pakistanis" a year my senior in university was among the biggest boost to myself academically. I got all their notes and "old exams" - anything I needed. That and my "hard work", among other such "resources", with no small amount of luck (or God's "grace") ensured my entrance into a professional school of the "first tier" ...

I put "quotes" around the word "Pakistani" because one of them was actually a Bengali. I still remember the shock on one of the other two's faces when I asked "Bengali/Punjabi - what is difference?"

And still, culturally it has been easier for me to relate to Indians - hands down. Even Arabs (I hung out with a group of Egyptians very, very regularly in university - I was in their late night "study" party where 10% of time was used to "study") did not wear "religion" on their sleeves as some Pakistani students did - I am not saying there was something wrong with the latter - just pointing out a fact. And all that was in the "pre-911" idyllic days.

Anyways, coming back to my point: I was forced to educate myself about China/Pakistan/India first after 9/11 and then in seriousness after 26/11.

My conclusion is simple: there is currently no chance of any genuine India/China rapprochement without a India/Pakistan "thaw" first. A three-way "thaw" is only going to happen in that order.

One exception that can occur is if and when Pakistan joins another, more formalized, substantial "alliance" - possibly involving Iran and Turkey.

I would actually be quite happy to see the above happen for a variety of reasons, not all of which many Chinese in the PRC would understand ...

Anyhow, carry on.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

That is not what I mean, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I am well aware that India has many friends in the world.

What I am trying to say is that you should look to the China/Pakistan friendship to understand how to be better friends with "China" specifically.

China is not easy to understand, but Pakistan figured it out. I'm sure that India can do this too.

Have you ever noticed its allways How to be friends with China, How to understand China,, its never about China being friends with some one else,,, its never about China understanding some one else. With China its just a one way street China's way.

 

[RAHUL INDIAN]

For a south Indian (I presume), your grasp of the meat of the matter is way exceeding some Yahuls. I concur with much of what you said.

For any Chinese who actually know a thing or two about the cultural evolution in the land of historical China, up until the European arrival (in force and splendor and "trouble"), China has always been more "Indic" than India has been "Sinic" ... although this affinity is more applicable to the classical cultures of north India (for obvious historical/religious/geographical reasons).

BTW, being "Indic" does not imply being "good" - this is a tangent we are not yet prepared to slide down, for now ... and part of this "Indic-ness" was "Iraning/Bactrian/Sogdian pre-islamic brand of Indic-ness" ..

Here comes a "candidly speaking"moment: until Mumbai 26/11, Pakistan wasn't on my personal radar. I saw it as a "new" country in the tradition of Singapore, Israel, or I suppose, Eritrea (no offense intended for that comment).

Culturally, no doubt I felt closer to Indians by far here in NA. That is not to say I haven't warmed up to Punjabi Pakistanis (they are all Punjabis here in Canada anyways). Heck, even the Indians here are mostly Punjabis. For some reasons, I have never gotten to know any Tamils ...

I would say that the "help" I received from three "Pakistanis" a year my senior in university was among the biggest boost to myself academically. I got all their notes and "old exams" - anything I needed. That and my "hard work", among other such "resources", with no small amount of luck (or God's "grace") ensured my entrance into a professional school of the "first tier" ...

I put "quotes" around the word "Pakistani" because one of them was actually a Bengali. I still remember the shock on one of the other two's faces when I asked "Bengali/Punjabi - what is difference?"

And still, culturally it has been easier for me to relate to Indians - hands down. Even Arabs (I hung out with a group of Egyptians very, very regularly in university - I was in their late night "study" party where 10% of time was used to "study") did not wear "religion" on their sleeves as some Pakistani students did - I am not saying there was something wrong with the latter - just pointing out a fact. And all that was in the "pre-911" idyllic days.

Anyways, coming back to my point: I was forced to educate myself about China/Pakistan/India first after 9/11 and then in seriousness after 26/11.

My conclusion is simple: there is currently no chance of any genuine India/China rapprochement without a India/Pakistan "thaw" first. A three-way "thaw" is only going to happen in that order.

One exception that can occur is if and when Pakistan joins another, more formalized, substantial "alliance" - possibly involving Iran and Turkey.

I would actually be quite happy to see the above happen for a variety of reasons, not all of which many Chinese in the PRC would understand ...

Anyhow, carry on.

spelling mistake, its Rahul and not Yahuls, ok seenxxx

and ur post is fine, excpet one issue. India and Pakistan can resolve their issues on thier own. We neither like and do not welcome unsolicited advise from others on how to go about our relations.

You want to improve relaitons with India you are welcome. Or else it is China's wish. We have lots of friends as against lots of enemies for China.

 

[RAHUL INDIAN]

Have you ever noticed its allways How to be friends with China, How to understand China,, its never about China being friends with some one else,,, its never about China understanding some one else. With China its just a one way street China's way.

yeah so true...that is why China has next to nil friends...
i think it is time for the Chinese to try to understand about others and understand how to be friends with others..

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

yeah so true...that is why China has next to nil friends...
i think it is time for the Chinese to try to understand about others and understand how to be friends with others..

LOL India is the one with no friends, not China.

We have alliances with Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. We have India completely surrounded.

Shanghai Cooperation Organisation = China + Russia + Pakistan

We also have a very strong economic relationship with the USA, we own more than a trillion of their debt and several trillion more in currency reserves of dollars. President OBAMA even said that the USA-China relationship will determine the fate of the 21st century.

Want to have the 1962 war again?

China + Pakistan will crush India like a worm without even the slightest bit of effort. India has NO ALLIES that will come to their aid in a direct military confrontation.

 

[oceanx]

LOL India is the one with no friends, not China.

We have alliances with Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. We have India completely surrounded.

Shanghai Cooperation Organisation = China + Russia + Pakistan

We also have a very strong economic relationship with the USA, we own more than a trillion of their debt and several trillion more in currency reserves of dollars. President OBAMA even said that the USA-China relationship will determine the fate of the 21st century.

Want to have the 1962 war again?

China + Pakistan will crush India like a worm without even the slightest bit of effort. India has NO ALLIES that will come to their aid in a direct military confrontation.

The trouble is that you clearly take this "face" thing too seriously. In no time you went from making some sense to scoring a notch or two below even Rahoo.

Shameful indeed.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The trouble is that you clearly take this "face" thing too seriously. In no time you went from making some sense to scoring a notch or two below even Rahoo.

Shameful indeed.

Canadian Chinese people aren't actually Chinese though in terms of culture.

I have a cousin who lives in Canada and even though they were born in Hong Kong.... they honest-to-God think they are "true Canadians".

So I don't expect you to understand the concept of face when it comes to "diplomacy"... but clearly the Chinese and American leaders understand this which is why they do so many deals off the table.

As I said, there needs to be more cultural understanding between leaders if relations are ever to improve.

 

[Honor]

The trouble is that you clearly take this "face" thing too seriously. In no time you went from making some sense to scoring a notch or two below even Rahoo.

Shameful indeed.

I hope "Yahoo" will keep his cool.

 

[IRA]

spelling mistake, its Rahul and not Yahuls, ok seenxxx

and ur post is fine, excpet one issue. India and Pakistan can resolve their issues on thier own. We neither like and do not welcome unsolicited advise from others on how to go about our relations.

You want to improve relaitons with India you are welcome. Or else it is China's wish. We have lots of friends as against lots of enemies for China.

Correction: it has always been india who runs from third-party mediation/facilitation, because india fears a plebicite will be inevitable in such a case.

And you just need to open your eyes to see who's got more friends.

 

[ChinaChina]

yeah so true...that is why China has next to nil friends...
i think it is time for the Chinese to try to understand about others and understand how to be friends with others..

stop trolling stick to the topic