'CIA doctor' accused of treason

[fd24]

Treason is defined as working for a foreign power against your own country. I agree this doctor was working for a foreign power.. But how was he working against Pakistan, when finding OBL was one of the publicly declared goals of Pakistani forces which had been asking for credible intelligence from USA about him so that they could nab him if he was in Pakistan...

Looks like accusing him of treason is like a Freudian slip at a national level by Pakistan

Karan

Since starting the thread i have seen on numerous occasions either Indians deliberately trying to be a bit slow on the uptake or (in Prafuls case) talking nonsense. Its very simple Afridi sent something up with a foreign power to carry acts out in this country without informing the authorities of Pakistan. He betrayed the trust of civilians and his country. I am not particular interested in the end result (obviously in this case being good) one has to see the implications of what he has done.
Spying and espionage in the west was taken extremely seriously in the 1960s when the cold war was at its height. Pakistan has every right to be most harsh with Afridi IF he is found guilty.
Pakistan prides itself on NEVER having a defector in the ISI and is extremely well respected in this sense. It is a sovereign state and has every right to put him on trial. Why should anything be different. If he is found guilty they will deal with him the way Pakistan feels the right way is.
My personal opinion is IF he is guilty of treason and has carried out what he has been accused then i would request the most severe of punishments. Why Indians suddenly expect us to behave in any other manner beggars belief and shows me that you guys will simply disagree with ANYthing Pakistan for the sake of it.

 

[iPhone]

Working for an outside spy agency behind the back of your country, it's gov't, it's law enforcement agencies and it's laws is a big no-no in any part of the world. And no ends do not justify the means. He should've approached the proper authorities in Pak in regards to his contacts with the CIA..... that is had not been blinded by the large amount of money offered.

And as far as the doctor doing the deed for the "greater good" and being a victim here is concerned then know this, these are the moments where nations and it's laws have to draw a line and make it clear to it's citizens of what can or can't be tolerated.

Sure, the courts can let him off the hook using the argument of the "greater good" even though it meant sabotaging the state's laws. But now you've made your stance clear amongst your citizen. You've made it known to your people that you will tolerate certain espionage behavior with the outsiders as long as citizen feels he's working for the greater good.

Today you have this doctor compromising your intelligence agencies by cooperating with a foreign agency, tomorrow you'll have a nuclear scientist compromising your country with the nuclear secrets, an engineer compromising your aeronautical plans - all in the name of self-conceived greater good ideas.

These are the times where you have to put your foot down and make it absolutely clear to your citizens that such behavior is classified as treason on the highest level and will not be tolerated, you wont be rewarded but awarded a tough life long punishment. And of course you let the haters talk and put whatever kind of spin on it they want. But you do what is to be done in this kind of situation.

 

[fd24]

If he can demonstrate that he was not aware of contributing to an illegal program sponsored by a foreign entity, then certainly the charges against him should not be 'treason'.

For treason to have been committed the Doctor did not have to know that he was helping in the hunt for OBL, or assisting in an illegal US raid in Pakistan, it would be enough to illustrate that he was aware of supporting an illegal foreign program for purposes of intelligence gathering (of any kind).

With respect AgNo i find it difficult to see he wasn't aware of what the intention of what was going on. He will have to probably employ OJ Simpsons lawyers to convince the court that was the case.
I would love to see his defense. In my opinion the lure of the green back has been too much for his greedy eyes and will have a job proving otherwise

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A He did it for money

Does not matter if he paid the CIA and begged and pleaded with them to let him them out, the legal question is whether he committed acts that were in violation of Pakistani laws - and if it is shown that he committed acts in violation of Pakistani laws, then the second question is whether he did so wittingly or unwittingly.

B He could have come to the Pakistani authorities too

He should have - no justifications (Corruption etc.) are an excuse for violating the law.

C He was paid money to go and endanger Pakistani kids, poke them with needles by CIA. He's not a doctor who happened to have come across the knowledge of Osama and chose to help the CIA instead of the Pakistani authorities.

Again, see response to first point.

 

[karan.1970]

Karan

Since starting the thread i have seen on numerous occasions either Indians deliberately trying to be a bit slow on the uptake or (in Prafuls case) talking nonsense.

My sincere apologies for not being of the mental caliber of a lot of Pakistanis on this forum (tongue firmly in cheek). But then on internet, you get all kinds of people.. Kind of goes with the territory of participating in anonymous debates

Its very simple Afridi sent something up with a foreign power to carry acts out in this country without informing the authorities of Pakistan. He betrayed the trust of civilians and his country.

Did he participate in the operation that killed OBL.. Dont think so...He sold unclassified information.. kind of like a bounty hunter.. How does that become treason unless Pakistani govt wanted to protect the location of OBL from USA?

Spying and espionage in the west was taken extremely seriously in the 1960s when the cold war was at its height. Pakistan has every right to be most harsh with Afridi IF he is found guilty.

In cold war espionage meant finding and leaking state secrets to enemy.. 2 questions.. Was OBL's location a state secret? Is CIA the declared enemy (which civilians are made aware of by the govt)

My personal opinion is IF he is guilty of treason and has carried out what he has been accused then i would request the most severe of punishments. Why Indians suddenly expect us to behave in any other manner beggars belief and shows me that you guys will simply disagree with ANYthing Pakistan for the sake of it.

I think I have responded to this above on why its not an Anti Pakistan view but a technical view on why this is not treason. It may be a bunch of other crimes but certainly not treason, unless the accusations of Pakistani establishment voluntarily harboring OBL in their military academy town are true...

 

[Thor]

He should be tried like any other..... If Israel can put on trial the whistle blower if their nuclear program then so can any other country.

Like many Indians here feel he was helping the international community then so too was Vanunu and as such should not have been jailed

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

With respect AgNo i find it difficult to see he wasn't aware of what the intention of what was going on. He will have to probably employ OJ Simpsons lawyers to convince the court that was the case.
I would love to see his defense. In my opinion the lure of the green back has been too much for his greedy eyes and will have a job proving otherwise

Whether he knew who his real employers were or not would depend on how the CIA recruited him and paid him - I would assume it was done through a 'front NGO', in which case prosecutors would have to see if any laws were violated in taking up employment with a foreign NGO without approval and vetting from any concerned authorities.

If it turns out that there was no legal burden on the Doctor to inform the authorities when accepting employment with a 'foreign NGO/company', then that cannot be considered a crime, and the Pakistani legislature should pass laws requiring approval for NGO's wishing to operate in Pakistan, and vetting and prior approval for NGO's wishing to hire workers in Pakistan.

 

[Awesome]

Proof / Evidence ???

I'm saying accuse him. Proof (other than Dr. Afridi's confession and the orders he received from CIA) plenty of other CIA incriminating documents against the CIA would be available in the Pakistani court.

Leon Panetta and Obama have to turn themselves in and answer for the crimes they have committed in court.

 

[Solomon2]

And as far as the doctor doing the deed for the "greater good" and being a victim here is concerned then know this, these are the moments where nations and it's laws have to draw a line and make it clear to it's citizens of what can or can't be tolerated.

Then they aren't "citizens" any more, you have reduced them to mere subjects, haven't you? What moral foundation is left for you to stand on when they revolt from such tyranny?

 

[Jango]

My sincere apologies for not being of the mental caliber of a lot of Pakistanis on this forum (tongue firmly in cheek). But then on internet, you get all kinds of people.. Kind of goes with the territory of participating in anonymous debates


Did he participate in the operation that killed OBL.. Dont think so...He sold unclassified information.. kind of like a bounty hunter.. How does that become treason unless Pakistani govt wanted to protect the location of OBL from USA?



In cold war espionage meant finding and leaking state secrets to enemy.. 2 questions.. Was OBL's location a state secret? Is CIA the declared enemy (which civilians are made aware of by the govt)


I think I have responded to this above on why its not an Anti Pakistan view but a technical view on why this is not treason. It may be a bunch of other crimes but certainly not treason, unless the accusations of Pakistani establishment voluntarily harboring OBL in their military academy town are true...

You have to look at the repercussions of his act as well, and not only the act itself. The point that he sold state secrets is not the point, rather the point at hand is for whom was he doing it for?

 

[karan.1970]

I'm saying accuse him. Proof (other than Dr. Afridi's confession and the orders he received from CIA) plenty of other CIA incriminating documents against the CIA would be available in the Pakistani court.

Leon Panetta and Obama have to turn themselves in and answer for the crimes they have committed in court.

Has ISI chief Pasha turned himself in and surrendered to the US courts since he is accused in a wrongful death case in New York?

 

[Awesome]

He should have - no justifications (Corruption etc.) are an excuse for violating the law.

Also note this "The Pakistani government is too corrupt" argument is also used by terrorists like Mumtaz Qadri who said he couldn't wait for the Pakistani law to take action against Taseer and had to attack him on his own.

CIA and the terrorists seem to have the same thought process

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Then they aren't "citizens" any more, you have reduced them to mere subjects, haven't you? What moral foundation is left for you to stand on when they revolt from such tyranny?

So Americans are 'citizens' in that they can go out and kill people like OJ Simpson or convicted child rapists released on parole? It would all be for the 'greater good', no?

 

[Solomon2]

If it turns out that there was no legal burden on the Doctor to inform the authorities when accepting employment with a 'foreign NGO/company', then that cannot be considered a crime.

Interesting. Do you think that the doctor will be killed nonetheless?

 

[newdelhinsa]

Well, that is exactly what the court is doing, and need not be defended by some newdelhinsa

The one who thanked you and many like you and have already passed the judgement that he is a traitor in all the senses this what newdelhinsa saying not to do. Defending someone and announcing the verdict are two different things. The first is good for discussion forum the later is futile here. If many like you have already passed the judgement then there is no point for you to be animated.