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Christopher Hitchens Goes Nuclear On Pakistan

That's an interesting take on Hitchens' article. How well do you think the author, Hama Yusuf, is cognizant of Pakistani men's issues and thinking as opposed to those of women?

i dont know...but on issue of terrorism, militancy, poverty -- most men AND women are united against these things though some may differ on ways to tackle the issues; as would be expected in a country of almost 200 million people.

the real question is -- are blinded sensationalist writers like ''Hitchens'' cognizant of some of the good developments in Pakistan as well? He is cognizant of the external challenges we face and the sacrifices we have made?

then again -- a man who is devoid on any knowledge of Pakistan pre or post partition (claiming it as just a ''carving'') -- a man who writes with much contempt about our heros like Chaudhri Rahmat Ali (whom Hitchens once labelled a ''propagandist'')


we can clearly see the type of individual we are dealing with here. I think we really have nothing to take him seriously for. If ignorance and a well-travelled life of boozing could kill, he'd be dead already anyways. :laugh:
 
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I'd take the article seriously if he stopped getting off on making sensationalist claims that "rape is not a crime, it's a punishment". From what I know if you rape someone in Pakistan you face the law and not nothing else.
VEHARI: Four men named in a gang-rape case were arrested on Monday after the family of the 13-year-old victim blocked the National Highway to protest against the police for failing to arrest them.

What "law" is that, exactly? It doesn't look like mechanisms are functioning to assure the poor and innocent that their pleas for justice will be heeded, does it?
 
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VEHARI: Four men named in a gang-rape case were arrested on Monday after the family of the 13-year-old victim blocked the National Highway to protest against the police for failing to arrest them.

What "law" is that, exactly? It doesn't look like mechanisms are functioning to assure the poor and innocent that their pleas for justice will be heeded, does it?


Did you even read what you posted?
SHO Aslam Ghumman said that the families stopped the agitation only after they were assured that the accused will not be released until the investigation of the case was complete. However, he said that nothing had been established so far. Vehari DPO Nasir Ali Rizvi told The Express Tribune that a detailed inquiry will be required before the matter was taken to the court.

Victims’ brother, Ahsan, has appealed to the Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to take a suo motto notice of the case
 
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Hitchens’ Pakistan Polemic Draws Flack​

By Tom Wright

A disagreement between journalist Christopher Hitchens and prominent Georgetown University scholar Christine Fair has captured a crucial debate about how countries like the U.S. and India should analyze Pakistan.

Christopher Hitchens, above, hinted in a recent article that Pakistan was morally corrupt.Mr. Hitchens uses his skills as a polemicist in a recent Vanity Fair article to propound the theory that Pakistan is a morally-corrupt and theocratic state with the roots of its current problems in men’s misogynistic attitudes to women.

“Moral courage” in Pakistan, Mr. Hitchens writes, “consists of the willingness to butcher your own daughter.”

It’s an allusion to honor killings of women who do things like have sex out of wedlock. Mr. Hitchens uses the image to lead in to an analysis of Pakistan as a country inflated by male bravado, “virtually barren of achievements,” that uses its nuclear weapons and control of Islamist groups to project martial power on a world stage.

Mr. Hitchens uses the passive voice to make allegations that the Pakistan army’s high command protected Osama bin Laden, before U.S. Navy SEALs killed him last month during a secret nighttime raid. “But not even I was cynical enough to believe that Osama bin Laden himself would be given a villa in a Pakistani garrison town on Islamabad’s periphery,” he writes.

It’s a cartoonish view of Pakistan that has gained currency in recent months. Even senior U.S. policymakers, who are frustrated by Pakistan’s failure to go after the Afghan Taliban, don’t believe the army was sheltering bin Laden or other senior al Qaeda leaders.

Mr. Hitchens’ argument is girded by a hatred of religion. Muscular atheists like Mr. Hitchens, and scientist Richard Dawkins, who called Islam an “unmitigated evil” in this post last month, are prone to caricature Pakistan.

A rebuttal to Mr. Hitchens’ polemic comes from Ms. Fair, a Pakistan expert at Georgetown University, who is by no means a dove when it comes to Pakistan.

Ms. Fair in the past has called out Pakistan’s military for its nurturing of Islamist militant groups that attack India, like in this 2009 testimony to the U.S. House of Representatives.

But Mr. Hitchens’ piece seems to have been too much for Ms. Fair. In a retort posted on the Huffington Post website, she calls his piece an “appalling example of American commentary that undermines the efforts of saner voices in this critical debate.”

She quotes U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates as saying there is no evidence Pakistan sheltered bin Laden and calls Mr. Hitchens’ claim to the contrary “feckless journalism.”

As Ms. Fair points out, while Pakistan has long supported the Afghan Taliban, which it sees as a way of exerting influence in neighboring Afghanistan, the country actually has a history of cooperating with the U.S. to kill and capture senior al Qaeda leaders over the past decade.

She calls out Mr. Hitchens on a number of factual inaccuracies, including his assertion that “everybody knew” al Qaeda leaders were being sheltered in Quetta, a Pakistan frontier town, when this in fact refers to the Taliban. And she points out that Abbottabad, the garrison town where bin Laden was hiding, is a three-hour drive from Islamabad, not on the capital’s periphery, as Mr. Hitchens writes.

But more importantly, Ms. Fair takes umbrage at the reduction of Pakistan, a country of 180 million people, to a “barbarous people,” the majority of whom revel in honor killings.

Getting the U.S.-Pakistan relationship back on track is hard enough, Ms. Fair argues. “However, accounts like that of Hitchens and others here and in Pakistan, dims the prospects for salvaging a relationship that is extremely important for the United States if not for Pakistan,” she adds. “And one has to wonder if that’s not the very goal of such fact-free musings.”

You can follow Mr. Wright on Twitter @TomWrightAsia.

Hitchens’ Pakistan Polemic Draws Flack - India Real Time - WSJ
 
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And here is the rebuttal by Christine Fair mentioned by Tom Wright:


The Road From Abbottabad Leads to Lame Analysis​


Posted: 06/21/11 05:30 PM ET

Enough fresh ink has been spilled about the harrowing straits through which the U.S.-Pakistan relationship is passing. While cooler heads such as Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States Husain Haqqani and U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates are seeking to explain to audiences at home and abroad the importance of the relationship, the genuine challenges that inhere in the bilateral partnership, and imagine a workable path forward; many other commentators have taken the recent events in Pakistan as an opportunity to stoke further anger and mistrust between the wary governments and their peoples.

While the Pakistani press is rife with caricatures of U.S. policy, distorted versions of history, and outright falsehoods, American journalists are capable of equal chicanery. Mr. Christopher Hitchens' latest offering in Vanity Fair, "From Abbottabad to Worse," is an appalling example of American commentary that undermines the efforts of saner voices in this critical debate.

His piece commences with a dramatic reference to rape -- not as a crime but as a punishment -- and honor killing. The former refers to the rare, horrific instances where women and girls are subject to sexual assault by, in the words of the author, "tribal and religious kangaroo courts." The latter refers to killing women (and sometimes men) in the name of honor. In this paragraph a complex polity of 180 million -- most of whom condemn both practices -- are essentialized as a barbarous people who embrace the notion that "moral courage consists of the willingness to butcher your own daughter." This literary amuse bouche foretells the absurdities, fallacies and dubious assertions in the rest of his troubling account of Pakistan's malaise.

He next characterizes President Asif Zardari as a man who "cringes daily in front of the forces who[sic] openly murdered his wife... A man so lacking in pride -- indeed lacking in manliness -- will seek desperately to compensate in other ways. Swelling his puny chest even more, he promises to resist the mighty United States, and to defend Pakistan's holy "sovereignty." This offensive passage reveals more about the psychology of the author than it does about that of President Zardari.

What are these "forces" that killed Benazir Bhutto? Mr. Hitchens wants the bravado of casting aspersions upon the Pakistani government. After all, only the government would have the authority to "contemptuously" order the crime scene to be "cleansed with fire hoses, as if to spit even on the pretense of an investigation." (Regrettably, all crime scenes -- big and small --are handled in this way in Pakistan.) However, there is no evidence that the government of Pakistan -- then under President Musharraf -- ordered her death. However, Mr. Hitchens here and throughout takes refuge in the pusillanimity of the passive tense by which he can intimate all the outlandish claims he wants without the responsibility of employing the active tense which requires him to name the agent of the action suggested. In fact, the U.S. government has consistently claimed that elements of the Pakistan Taliban ordered her death.

President Musharraf suffered considerably from her murder. Those with even a 4-year recollection of politics in Pakistan would remember that the United States had brokered a bizarre condominium by which Pervez Musharraf would remain president while Ms. Bhutto would become the Prime Minister following elections which were scheduled for late 2007. Musharraf had become politically isolated following a series of horrendous missteps and abuses of power. However, Washington was unwilling to let Musharraf slink into oblivion. So it devised a compact by which Mr. Musharraf could be laundered through the electoral legitimacy of Ms. Bhutto. With her demise -- and even public suspicion that he or his government had her killed -- Mr. Musharraf's political life in Pakistan was finished. He now lives in London with various legal woes awaiting him in Pakistan.

Mr. Hitchens' answer to "Why do they hate us" is no less preposterous and misleading. He contends that Pakistanis dislike the United States because they "owe us, and are dependent upon us." This is simply a mathematical canard. According to the USAID Green Book, in 2009, total economic assistance to Pakistan came to $1.35 billion and military assistance totaled $0.429 (for a grand sum of $1.78 billion). In 2009, Pakistan's gross domestic product was $162 billion. Calling this is a dependency is an obvious stretch. (In fairness, I too have been guilty of lapsing into this idiom until I crunched the numbers.)

By way of contrast, the United States gave Israel $2.43 billion in total economic and military assistance in 2009. Israel's GDP was $204 billion. As a percentage of GDP, U.S. total assistance to both countries are nearly the same (around 1 percent). Between 1962 and 2009, total economic and military assistance to Israel totaled $178 billion in constant 2009 U.S. dollars. In the same period, U.S. military and economic aid to Pakistan comes to $37 billion in constant 2009 U.S. dollars. But would Mr. Hitchens describe Israel as being dependent upon Washington? By his own argumentation, he would have to answer in the affirmative.

However, from the optic of the American legislator and citizen alike, U.S. assistance to Pakistan appears to be a relatively large sum that should prompt positive feelings for America, or at least dampen raging anti-U.S. sentiment, among Pakistanis. And Americans do expect their funds will be used to a good end rather than be gobbled up by corruption in the host nation and by their own national contractors who are often first-tier executors of U.S. projects. Americans also expect their economic assistance to buy them some sway with Pakistan due to other larger economic factors such as the U.S. role in the International Monetary Fund and other multi-lateral actors which has helped Pakistan considerably. Other forms of assistance such as debt relief are also important beyond the sum it totals. And the United States has been the biggest investor in Pakistan's human development, trumping Saudi Arabia and China long embraced as Pakistan's enduring friends. Mr. Hitchens characterization of Pakistan as "our goddam [sic] lapdog" is out of line.

However, the circus of inaccuracy is far from over. Mr. Hitchens then proceeds to announce that "Everybody knew that al-Qaeda forces were being sheltered in the Pakistani frontier town of Quetta..." Mr. Hitchens of course takes refuge again in the passive voice to avoid saying precisely who sheltered al Qaeda. It would appear that the author has confused al Qaeda (an international terrorist organization) and the Afghan Taliban (a regressive Pashtun-dominated Deobandi insurgent organization presently focused upon the international occupation of Afghanistan). The former has not been harbored by the Pakistani state while the latter has been a long-standing client.

He continues to distort the entire record of Pakistan when it comes to al Qaeda. Pakistan has been a critical partner in capturing al Qaeda leadership in Pakistan. In fact, had it not been for this baseline cooperation, the United States would not have even been a position to kill bin Laden in the first instance.

There is at least one practical reason for Pakistan's cooperation: al Qaeda has targeted Pakistan's military and civilian leadership for years. In 2009, al Zawahiri denounced Pakistan's constitution as un-Islamic. Al Qaeda's sectarian allies such as Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Sipha-e-Sahaba-e-Pakistan has killed or maimed tens of thousands of Pakistanis since 2004. Al Qaeda is not an asset for Pakistan as the author suggests.

Pakistan's record on al Qaeda has been evident and positive even while Pakistan sustains ties with the Afghan Taliban and groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba. While these groups are foes of the United States, neither the Afghan Taliban nor Lashkar-e-Taiba has targeted Pakistan nor have they embraced the Pakistani Taliban. This has been an invariant truth since the onset of the Global War on Terror in 2001. The United States and Pakistan have an ever-more restricted overlap of foes which makes future cooperation seem increasingly unproductive if not counterproductive to both nations' aims.

Hitchens next describes his own shock that "Osama bin Laden himself would be given a villa in a Pakistani garrison town on Islamabad's periphery." Dodging again behind the passive tense, he offers no evidence for this reckless and dangerous assertion. In contrast to Mr. Hitchens, U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has said that he had seen evidence that suggested Pakistan's senior officials were unaware of bin Laden's whereabouts. Hitchens' claim that the state sheltered Pakistan is feckless journalism that encourages further ignorant speculation among publics who have no real understanding of the other and their governments.

And, for the record, Abbottabad is not on the periphery of Islamabad unless one redefines the word periphery. The word is defined as "the edge or outskirts, as of a city or urban area." While the distance between the two cities, as a crow would fly, is about 67 miles, because Abbottabad is "hill station" resort town, the road is windy, indirect and covers an altitude climb of about 2,500 feet. Periphery implies a jaunt to the suburbs. But the drive is about 2.5 hours depending upon conditions and the quality of your car. Describing Abbottabad as in the periphery of Islamabad is either geographically obtuse or a deliberate attempt to make it sound as if bin Laden was pacing back and forth in a suburb of the nation's capital. Someone should introduce Mr. Hitchens to Google Earth and if not him, then Vanity Fair's fact checker --should there be one.

Hitchens is correct in noting that Pakistanis of all strata are deeply outraged that U.S. Navy SEALS came into Abbottabad -- a garrison-town -- to catch bin Laden without hindrance and with impunity. However, his outrage at Pakistani outrage is misplaced. Of course, Pakistanis should feel so violated because they were. As an American, I support the raid that eliminated this terrorist. However, from the optic of many Pakistanis, they first had to contend with the notion that bin Laden was in their country and second that the United States stormed their airspace, conducted a firefight for 40 minutes in a garrison town and then escaped with its dead quarry all before the Pakistanis could even scramble their F-16s.

Pakistanis themselves began wondering whether their military could protect them from India and whether the United States could act with equal ease to eliminate their nuclear program. Needless to say, all of this came on the back of years of drone attacks against terrorists in Pakistan's tribal areas. While the facts about the drone program in Pakistan are grotesquely distorted and obscured by Pakistani and American officials, ultimately perception matters more than reality. Pakistanis, especially beyond FATA, loathe them as weekly assaults upon their nation's sovereignty. The bin Laden raid was just the latest and most brazen of assaults on the country and demonstrated the incapacity or will of the military or intelligence agencies to stop the United States. Who would not be demoralized and outraged by these events?

Pakistanis -- more than Mr. Hitchens -- understand the limits of their country's ability to extend rule of law throughout the land, to protect them from the ravages of terrorists and proxies gone wild alike, to grow the economy fast enough to accommodate Pakistan's burgeoning population, among other challenges.

Similarly the American hysteria over Pakistan's capture and detention of Pakistanis who collaborated on the raid -- while understandable -- is unfair. Pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI, knows full well that the CIA is operating against the organization perhaps as much if not more than it cooperates with it. The Pakistanis who assisted the raid were traitors to Pakistan by law because they aided and abetted a foreign intelligence agency. This is what domestic law enforcement and intelligence agencies do: ferret out and capture traitors. The United States does the same thing when their citizens help foreign spy organizations. Americans and Pakistanis alike hope that Pakistan will show equal diligence to determining who knew about bin Laden and who was involved in giving the mass murderer succor. Time will tell if this is the case.

Navigating this strained relationship under the pressures of reality is hard enough. However, accounts like that of Hitchens and others here and in Pakistan, dims the prospects for salvaging a relationship that is extremely important for the United States if not for Pakistan. And one has to wonder if that's not the very goal of such fact-free musings.

C. Christine Fair is an assistant professor at Georgetown University, Center for Peace and Security Studies and the author of the political cookbook, Cuisines of the Axis of Evil and Other Irritating States and Pakistan's Madrassah Challenge: Militancy and Religious Education in Pakistan. She can be followed on Twitter cchristinefair

Follow C. Christine Fair on Twitter: Christine Fair (CChristineFair) on Twitter

C. Christine Fair: The Road From Abbottabad Leads to Lame Analysis
 
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undiplomatically put -- he's an angry drunk.

what credibility does this guy have.


a guy who is on record having stated that:


''I don't think the war in Afghanistan was ruthlessly enough waged.”

“Cluster bombs are perhaps not good in themselves, but when they are dropped on identifiable concentrations of Taliban troops, they do have a heartening effect.”

(incidentally, the use of cluster bombs is illegal under the Convention on Cluster Munitions which was ratified in 2008)

“Islam makes very large claims for itself. In its art, there is a prejudice against representing the human form at all. The prohibition on picturing the prophet – who was only another male mammal – is apparently absolute. So is the prohibition on pork or alcohol or, in some Muslim societies, music or dancing. Very well then, let a good Muslim abstain rigorously from all these. But if he claims the right to make me abstain as well, he offers the clearest possible warning and proof of an aggressive intent.”

Judaism has some advantages over Christianity in that, for example, it does not proselytise — except among Jews — and it does not make the cretinous mistake of saying that the Messiah has already made his appearance. However, along with Islam and Christianity, it does insist that some turgid and contradictory and sometimes evil and mad texts, obviously written by fairly unexceptional humans, are in fact the word of god. I think that the indispensable condition of any intellectual liberty is the realisation that there is no such thing.”




and one of the more twisted:


“The four most over-rated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics.”



so he's an alcoholic....he displays his ethno-centrism and religious bigotry....and apparently he knows a lot about anal sex!



I think, ladies and gentlemen, we know what kind of character we are dealing with over here. Need we pay even a modicum of attention to this guy? Need we?
 
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People like Hitchen's and Dawkin's are the reason why I detest ardent atheists as much as religious extremists (and therefore lean towards agnosticism).

His hate filled, fallacious and grossly generalizing diatribe is no better than the hate filled, fallacious grossly generalizing diatribes that religious extremists use to vilify and drum up hate against the 'other'.

The only bit 'intellectual' about Hitchen's is his command of the English language and 'pretty' (ironic given its use to spread hatred and prejudice) prose.
 
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Just reading a few sentences of the article made me get up from sleep and I came back to read it again. This is a 20 KT H Bomb of an article. This article is so potent that someone in this forum will just go mad and shoot himself.

This article is written by a person who is talking about Tribal Society.............but he forget which society he belongs........where more than 50% generation don't know who is their father......they can live and sleep together without marriage....they can run naked on beaches and on raod they can do animal things in front of everybody on the road.........and still they are talking about the such society which atleast has some honor.
 
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Just reading a few sentences of the article made me get up from sleep and I came back to read it again. This is a 20 KT H Bomb of an article. This article is so potent that someone in this forum will just go mad and shoot himself.

ramu is so excited, he's printed the article, framed it on his wall, and now reads it everytime he wakes up to help cope with his self-esteem. lol
 
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Mr. Hitchens' answer to "Why do they hate us" is no less preposterous and misleading. He contends that Pakistanis dislike the United States because they "owe us, and are dependent upon us." This is simply a mathematical canard. According to the USAID Green Book, in 2009, total economic assistance to Pakistan came to $1.35 billion and military assistance totaled $0.429 (for a grand sum of $1.78 billion). In 2009, Pakistan's gross domestic product was $162 billion. Calling this is a dependency is an obvious stretch. (In fairness, I too have been guilty of lapsing into this idiom until I crunched the numbers.)

This is why this aid has got to stop. We get peanuts from this peanut of a aid, after its processed, and then whatever left over comes to Pakistan, most of it even then ends up in corrupt pockets. What does the country get then? If nothing but taunts of free money.
 
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I hate to admit it but every single word he said is correct, this is one of the best article about Pakistan I have read in the recent past.
 
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Christopher Hitchens extrapolates half-truths that plague the tribal region and their backwardness onto the entire country of Pakistan. He raises the issues like honor killings, rape, "kangaroo courts", etc that sometimes occur in NW Pakistan and tribal region where many of the nations (societal wise) primitive people live not to mention where many Afghani primitives live as well.

So then knowing this he starts off his article with "Here is a society" Christopher Hitchens is unfairly and unjustly extrapolating and generalizing the situation that sometime arise in the primitive parts of the country onto the entire country and society of Pakistan.


That sometimes occur in NW Pakistan? You have conveniently ignored all those cases that happen every second week in southern Punjab in which a woman is gang raped and paraded naked at the behest of local punchayat and then blaming the Pashtun tribes who live in a more egalitarian and democratic society. There are many areas in Punjab where people are far more backward then those Pashtuns living in the tribal areas.
 
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VEHARI: Four men named in a gang-rape case were arrested on Monday after the family of the 13-year-old victim blocked the National Highway to protest against the police for failing to arrest them.

What "law" is that, exactly? It doesn't look like mechanisms are functioning to assure the poor and innocent that their pleas for justice will be heeded, does it?

It's a horrible incident. And there are many more like this. But are you arguing the entire 180 million people are like that? Cuz that's what your racist writer is suggesting. That in every household in Pakistan women are butchered upon birth, or chained to walls until thy grow up to be used for sex and bearing children. That is the writer's argument whom you are defending. If that's how you feel, then just come out in the open and admit it, be a fearless, straightforward, harsh truth speaking one and tell it as how you feel, nothing wrong with that.

And I'm not even gonna go into what horrible crimes against women have been committed in countries around the globe.
 
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It's ashame that they dont value women.,nobody should be treated as such.,
 
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