Chinese Muslims linked to Games bombings

[Vinod2070]

The Indian Muslim literacy rates are higher than Pakistani Muslims!

So much for the conspiracy theorists. Now eat crow and come up with the next piece of conspiracy theory!

Religion Jain Christians Buddhists Sikh Hindu India Average Muslim
Literacy 94.1% 80.3% 72.7% 69.4% 65.1% 65% 59.1%

religion demographics india population growth literacy gender discrimination islam hinduism sikhism christianity buddhism jain hindu muslim work participation

India with all its problems and alleged conspiracy against Muslims is more successful in educating its Muslims than the Muslim haven country of the subcontinent!

Does someone have a shame to go and drown in "chullu bhar pani"?

 

[Vinod2070]

Jains, Christians, Buddhists and Sikhs are all ahead of Hindus in literacy rates.

Muslims are behind them all not because of any external factors.

They are educating themselves faster than the Pakistani Muslims are, they are doing better than Pakistani Muslims on all fronts of human endeavor. They are making better Scientists, Doctors, Industrialists, Artists, Singers, Dancers and almost any field one can think of.

The world knows about Azim Premzi, Indian President Kalaam, The Khans of Hindi film industry and many more such achievers. They are respected and recognized the world over.

Is there a Pakistani counterpart to any of them?

The most famous (or is that infamous) Pakistani is Qadir khan? See the difference?

 

[muse]

http://india_resource.tripod.com/savoice.html


Non Indian readers should familairize themselves with South Asia Voice website that out gentle friend Vinod has quoted from -- then readers can decide for themselves

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ It was obviously just a google search to get the data on the literacy rates of various communities of India.

If you don't agree with the data, why don't you come up with better or more authentic data.

This talk of the website seems a red-herring.

Muse: I read and appreciate your posts with interest (not Riba ). Better is expected from you than such diversions.

Anyway you are welcome to comment on the content of my posts if you choose to.

 

[muse]

Gentle Vinod, Why angry? You are making a case, making a claim and you are presenting evidence - The evidence you present is important, it is the heart of the case - and I nor anybody else did not twist your arm to present evidence from that website - you, I and anyone who visit's the website knows what that website is and what it's purpose is. Is it unfair that one should examine the evidence to which you have pointed the reader to??

In general, one must be careful with statistics, it is all to easy to misunderstand and misrepresent them.

Anyway, If your argument is that Muslims in South India have a higher literacy rate than elsewhere - seems like a reasonable statement, after all, South India has the highest literacy rate in India. And South India has historically not been the venue for communalism.

I want you to understand that I am not taking a position with regard to any argument you are putting forward, rather I did as you have directed with regard to where you directed me as a reader.Please do not take offence, none is offered or intended.

 

[Vinod2070]

Gentle Vinod, Why angry? You are making a case, making a claim and you are presenting evidence - The evidence you present is important, it is the heart of the case - and I nor anybody else did not twist your arm to present evidence from that website - you, I and anyone who visit's the website knows what that website is and what it's purpose is. Is it unfair that one should examine the evidence to which you have pointed the reader to??

In general, one must be careful with statistics, it is all to easy to misunderstand and misrepresent them.

Anyway, If your argument is that Muslims in South India have a higher literacy rate than elsewhere - seems like a reasonable statement, after all, South India has the highest literacy rate in India. And South India has historically not been the venue for communalism.

I want you to understand that I am not taking a position with regard to any argument you are putting forward, rather I did as you have directed with regard to where you directed me as a reader.Please do not take offence, none is offered or intended.

Thx. Muse. All I took from any website was the data, no opinions and I hope that was clear enough. I don't even think that the data was mis-represented.

While I have never visited the site in question, a glance at your link doesn't show anything too objectionable. I would love to know what you really find so bad there. The site may be promoting Indian POV but is not indulging in false propaganda AFAICS.

I can also get the same data from any number of other more palatable sources.

This one may be an eye opener for some here.

Gujarat Muslims register highest literacy rate

The literacy rate among Muslims in Gujarat has increased by 10 per cent in the last decade and at 73 per cent is higher than the overall literacy rate in the state.

The Census data too reflects the growing significance of this trend. The literacy rate of Muslims in Gujarat has increased by over 10 per cent in ten years to 73.9 per cent.

This is much higher than the state's average of 69.1 per cent and the all-India Muslim literacy rate of 59 per cent. Female literacy too is higher than the national average at 54 per cent.

Gujarat Muslims register highest literacy rate , The Milli Gazette, Vol.5 No.20, MG114 (16-31 Oct 04)

It turns out that in 10 major states of India, Muslims are more literate than Hindus.

http://realitycheck.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/sach2.JPG

A simple search should throw any number of such references.

I agree that the communal situation in South India has not historically been as bad as the North and there are historical reasons for that.

You can still see thousand year old temples standing in the South. You will be hard put to see even one in the North. The North has much bitter memories and that reflects in the communal situation.

 

[muse]

Vinod

I wish you would have added the following from the same article in the milligazette you quoted earlier - as I said, statistics lend themselves to misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

It's a response, social activists say, to the insecurity the community has faced in Gujarat for many years.

But instead of being pushed into ghettos, access to colleges and awareness campaigns have meant that even the orthodox sections, chose more liberal education systems to madrasas.

"After the Babri mosque demolition there has been a growing consciousness amongst the community on the importance of liberal secular education and this has forced even orthodox people to send their children to liberal education systems," said Dr Hanif Lakdawala, a social activist.

Another reason for the high literacy rate among Muslims is due to the rapid urbanisation in Gujarat with Muslims concentrated in many of the bigger cities like Ahmedabad, Vadodra and Surat.

"Naturally in urban areas the literacy rate is higher and so in Gujarat the literacy rate amongst Muslims is higher than the all-India Muslim literacy rate," said Dr Jaffer Hussain Laliwala, former Professor of Economics, Gujarat University.

While the scars of the communal frenzy of 2002 have not quite healed, the silent literacy revolution in Gujarat is a powerful rejoinder to those who have tried to stereotype the Gujarati Muslim

I agree with you however; that India have, overall, done a much better job with educating it's populace than Pakistan have.

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod

I wish you would have added the following from the same article in the milligazette you quoted earlier - as I said, statistics lend themselves to misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

Statistics are any day better than mere assumptions about the situation just because that is what one is conditioned to believe.

I do agree however that they can be misused. This is not the case in such a simple matter as comparing literacy rates.

If it was a response to the insecurity, it is a much better response than enrolling children in potentially radicalizing community institutes funded from outside the country.

But it shows that even in Modi ruled Gujarat, Muslims can educate themselves. Even more than the majority community.

Far from the conspiracies being spun by some here.

I agree with you however; that India have, overall, done a much better job with educating it's populace than Pakistan have.

Better may be but not good enough. Much more needs to be done.

May be opening up education to the private sector would be the right step. It is one of the most regulated sectors in India and the bureaucrats and politicians control it too tightly and indulge in massive corruption.

Many foreign universities have tried to set up shop in India but could not. These idiots don't want to give up the control.

 

[muse]

Well, just because statistics lend themselves to misunderstanding and misrepresentation, doe snot mean we have to rely on assumptions, but it does mean that we be careful. In fact, when comparing anything, they can be used to misrepresent.

Better Job? Sho nuff!

 

[Logic note]

Better may be but not good enough. Much more needs to be done.

May be opening up education to the private sector would be the right step. It is one of the most regulated sectors in India and the bureaucrats and politicians control it too tightly and indulge in massive corruption.

Many foreign universities have tried to set up shop in India but could not. These idiots don't want to give up the control.

Education shall not be Privatised ..
autonomy within the control of government has yielded a good result in higher education IIT and IIMs are good example OF THAT , and this shall be continued .

 

[roadrunner]

As discussed in another thread, why is it that Pakistani Muslims have not been able to reduce the education gap with Indians in 60 years when there was supposedly no discrimination against them?

This was answered with proof already in the other thread, even though you failed to understand it. Pakistan and India have made the same advances in education as each other. Pakistan's start literacy after partition was 7% (actually 7.6% according to Akhtar), India had a slightly higher educational literacy with 15%. Both have improved, Pakistan by around 43 percentage points, India by around 45 percentage points. There is no major gap in the rate of educational improvement between Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims.

Indian literacy graphs over decades have the same gradient as Pakistani literacy graphs. This shows the two countries have been addressing education to the same degree.

Why would a similar % of Muslim literacy in India as in Pakistan a conspiracy in India but sheer brilliance and dedication in Pakistan?

You'll need to re-educate yourself and re-type this literately.

Why are Balochistan and the Pushtun areas still dismal in education? Is that a conspiracy too?

And this was proven in the other thread also to be a lie. Pashtun literacy is 50%, Sindhi literacy is 50%. Nothing to do with Islam as you are suggesting, or some East-West divide.

"According to the latest NES, Balochistan’s total literacy rate is 34 percent against the national literacy rate of 52 percent – 57 percent of which is for the Punjab, 50 percent for Sindh and 49 percent for the NWFP."
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\12\story_12-6-2007_pg7_14

But of course you're right and the NES is wrong!

In no country are all ethnicities equally successful. Let me give a quote by a Pakistani writer.

Because of the small size of England, the Pakistani community was able to physically concentrate, with many cities having large sections that are almost a Pakistani enclave, where one doesn’t even need knowledge of English language. Education is sadly neglected, and Pakistani children are the worst performing in British schools. In contrast, Indian children are the best performing, even better than White Britishers. These educational failures bode even worse for the future.

No doubts you memorized that one off by heart

The author is actually incorrect. Education is neglected for various reasons by the Pakistani community in the UK. The main one being that the bulk of British Pakistanis follow a Biraderi system which is common to a specific village culture in Pakistan. This results in them bringing over many illiterate family members which then reduces the overall percentage of degree qualified Pakistanis, and has the effect of overcrowding an already poor population. The Indians tend not to have the same mentality, which does not mean that Indians within India do not have this mentality..simply that the people who were given the work visas tended to be from more affluent (but not much), and more progressive backgrounds for the Indian migrants than the Pakistani migrants.

One can see this, when one looks at the initial batch of Indian and Pakistani migrants for the first couple of decades into the UK. the educational achievements were very similar. As the effects of overcrowding wore on, and Indians got more affluent in the UK, they began to achieve better results than Pakistanis on average. However, this is a country specific phenomenon. Once one goes to the USA or other places, Indians do not outperform Pakistanis on average. If anything, it is the other way round. Even some localities in England where more affluent Pakistanis live, have Indians being outperformed by Pakistanis. In other words, whilst in England, what the author says is true, due to the construction of a dam by Ayub Khan in the 60's, in the other countries where skilled city labourers form the Pakistani emigres, there is no such educational gap between Indians and Pakistanis. In fact, in these cases, the statistics show that Pakistanis outperform Indians.

Are they also discriminated by the government.

The story is the same across many countries where there are large immigrants from both countries.

Nope, it isn't the same. When one looks at the US, highly educated Pakistanis and Indians were brought over to perform skilled labour. Therefore the Pakistanis and Indians in the US come from similar family backgrounds, and perform reasonably similar on average in schools, universities, and jobs. The same with Canada.

But of course one thing that one can't expect from some is intellectual honesty and the courage to face the truth.

So much easier to blame someone for all your failures!

Intellectual honesty indeed would be nice from some, but too much to ask for

 

[Vinod2070]

Education shall not be Privatised ..
autonomy within the control of government has yielded a good result in higher education IIT and IIMs are good example OF THAT , and this shall be continued .

IITs and IIMs are just not enough for such a big country. They have just not been able to scale. Nowhere close to what we need.

I am not asking to privatize education but to open it up. Let the private schools compete with the government ones and the parents should be allowed to choose what they like.

The government schools are in pathetic condition for the most part with massive teacher absenteeism, lack of any accountability to parents and students etc.

Gurcharan Das has written many excellent articles on the topic. Here is one:

It's time to free our schools

A dear friend of mine has grown weary. He runs five schools in the slums of Delhi, which provide a fine education to 13,500 poor children with 250 motivated teachers. But his idealism is frayed from fighting the 'licence raj' for 20 years. He has been unable to gain accreditation for his schools because he is unwilling to bribe. Instead, he is humiliated daily as he runs from one official to another. Ironically, 'licence raj' went away in industry in 1991 but it still thrives in education. You need 11 licences to run a school and each comes with a bribe. The most egregious one is an Essentiality Certificate by which a bureaucrat decides if your school is 'essential'.

The answer to corruption is institutional reform — get rid of licences and Essentiality Certificates and create massive disincentives against corruption. The new science of sociobiology explains how this works and how to get people to behave honestly. Evolutionary scientists teach us that human beings have evolved through a long struggle in which only the fittest have survived. The fittest are those who pass on their genes. But it is a mistake to believe that life is a tooth and claw struggle where only the selfish survive. Yes, we have evolved from animals — we share 98.6% of our genes with chimpanzees — but nature is replete with dharma-like goodness. Wolves and wild dogs bring food back for their young who cannot hunt. Dolphins will help lift an injured companion for hours to help him survive. Blackbirds and thrushes give warning calls when they spot a hawk even if it risks their own lives.

Similarly, human parents make huge sacrifices for their children with little expectation of return. So, it is wrong to view nature as an amoral law of the jungle.

But how do you get human beings to behave as nicely with strangers as they do with their children? Two weeks ago i wrote in this column about two prisoners who would go free if they cooperated and how dharma-like behaviour emerges from reciprocal altruism. In The Descent of Man, Charles Darwin wrote that each person "learns from experience that if he aided his fellow-men he would receive aid in return." However, if a person is mean, he will receive 'tit for tat' according to the principle of reciprocity. This is sociobiology's answer to corruption: reciprocate corrupt behaviour with exemplary and quick punishment. Even Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata, who is inclined to turn the other cheek, realises this and finally declares war on the Kauravas.

We have forgotten this lesson in India and this is why Gunnar Myrdal called us a 'soft state'. Our idealistic approach to labour prevents quick punishment of the guilty. We have all the laws in place but our administrative processes are so 'soft' that they allow both the bribe taker and giver to get away, and this in turn sends a signal that corruption pays. Western countries were able to eliminate corruption because they punished it ruthlessly at various moments in their history. The message, 'corruption does not pay', became encoded in their culture, and their citizens over time acquired virtuous habits.

The answer to my friend's problem is thus two-fold: first, liberalise and get rid of most licences in education. If you do this, honest professionals will start good schools. More schools will mean more competition and this will improve quality all round, and good schools will drive out bad schools. Second, bribe-taking bureaucrats will behave decently if you vigorously inflict massive, rapid punishment on the guilty in accordance with sociobiology's principle of reciprocity.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...e_to_free_our_schools/articleshow/2274711.cms

And another:

End this killer Raj

For the first time an Indian institution of higher education has been ranked among the top 20 in the world. The Indian School of Business (ISB) was ranked 20th in a list of the top 100 business schools by a prestigious foreign business daily two weeks ago. A Chinese business school was No 11; four European schools came in the top 10, and the rest were from the United States.

But wait a minute. Isn't the ISB illegal? ISB officials explain that they don't want accreditation from All India Council of Technical Education (AICTE) because then "they will decide our courses, our student intake, and even the size of our buildings." I spoke to a top AICTE official, who scornfully dismissed ISB - "its fees are too high and it doesn't even have a permanent faculty." I gently suggested that its faculty is world-class if not permanent. And why worry about fees when every student has a loan. They must be doing something right if students command a mean salary of Rs 16 lakh a year at graduation.

ISB is India's only school in the top-100 list. There might have been more but for AICTE. One of these is Mumbai's premier SP Jain Institute, run by a no-nonsense Harvard graduate. It doesn't bribe; nor does it succumb to politicians for admissions.

Hence, it is punished. It applied to admit 120 students in 1992, but got approval for 45. In 2001, it applied for 180 but didn't get approval for six years. In 2004, AICTE rejected its unique dual degree programme with a reputed foreign university, whereby the latter would have flown its faculty to India. Its innovative programme for family-run businesses was also rejected. Last year, it seriously contemplated closing down. Instead, it has started campuses in Dubai and Singapore - far beyond AICTE's reach.

What do you do when the keepers of the law become its oppressors? AICTE was set up to encourage higher education but it achieved the opposite. Honest officials have tried cleaning it up periodically, but they have always been removed by politicians, who happen to own many of our worst private institutions. The answer, of course, is to give autonomy to all education institutions.

Regulators should only ensure that they provide mandatory disclosure on the Internet about their courses, faculty, fees, and facilities (with severe punishment for false claims). Professional rating services should evaluate colleges with the same credibility as Crisil rates industrial companies. Competition will take care of the rest. Students will be able to make informed choices. Good institutions will thrive and poor ones will close.

In the India of my dreams the government will stop running universities and colleges. All institutions will be autonomous. The government will plough all the money saved into scholarships. The government's role will be limited to governance - ensuring corruption-free ratings and corruption-free exams (with the credibility of IIT-JEE) at various stages in a student's career.

The tombstone of the UGC/AICTE Raj will thus read: "For 50 years we promoted rote learning, incompetent faculty, and mediocrity. We punished original thinking and failed to create an employable graduate. We pushed students into a parallel universe of coaching classes, which ironically took their obligation to students far more seriously. We deserved to die."

Building India is about building institutions. This Sunday let's celebrate the emergence of a world class institution in India. The altruistic founders of ISB had a vision. They funded it privately and nurtured it in its early years. They persisted in difficult times, especially when they were under attack from AICTE. Now, this is how to build fine institutions.

End this killer Raj-MEN & IDEAS-Gurcharan Das-Columnists-Opinion-The Times of India

I am not advocating for the government to pull out of education. Just not to monopolize it. Especially after failing spectacularly.

 

[Vinod2070]

This was answered with proof already in the other thread, even though you failed to understand it. Pakistan and India have made the same advances in education as each other. Pakistan's start literacy after partition was 7%, India had a slightly higher educational literacy with 15%. Both have improved, Pakistan by around 43 percentage points, India by around 45 percentage points. There is no major gap in the rate of educational improvement between Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims.

You'll need to re-educate yourself and re-type this literately.

And this was proven in the other thread also to be a lie. Pashtun literacy is 50%, Sindhi literacy is 50%. Nothing to do with Islam as you are suggesting, or some East-West divide.

No doubts you memorized that one off by heart

The author is actually incorrect. Education is neglected for various reasons by the Pakistani community in the UK. The main one being that the bulk of British Pakistanis follow a Biraderi system which is common to a specific village culture in Pakistan. This results in them bringing over many illiterate family members which then reduces the overall percentage of degree qualified Pakistanis, and has the effect of overcrowding an already poor population. The Indians tend not to have the same mentality, which does not mean that Indians within India do not have this mentality..simply that the people who were given the work visas tended to be from more affluent (but not much), and more progressive backgrounds for the Indian migrants than the Pakistani migrants.

One can see this, when one looks at the initial batch of Indian and Pakistani migrants for the first couple of decades into the UK. the educational achievements were very similar. As the effects of overcrowding wore on, and Indians got more affluent in the UK, they began to achieve better results than Pakistanis on average. However, this is a country specific phenomenon. Once one goes to the USA or other places, Indians do not outperform Pakistanis on average. If anything, it is the other way round. Even some localities in England where more affluent Pakistanis live, have Indians being outperformed by Pakistanis. In other words, whilst in England, what the author says is true, due to the construction of a dam by Ayub Khan in the 60's, in the other countries where skilled city labourers form the Pakistani emigres, there is no such educational gap between Indians and Pakistanis.

Nope, it isn't the same. Essentially, when one looks at the US, highly educated Pakistanis and Indians were brought over to perform skilled labour. Therefore the Pakistanis and Indians in the US come from similar family backgrounds, and perform reasonably similar on average in schools, universities, and jobs. The same with Canada.

Intellectual honesty indeed would be nice from some, but too much to ask for

RR, even though its getting a bit tiring, I will do it one more time just for you.

Let me remind you, the discussion is about your insinuation that Muslims are less literate than others in India because of some kind of institutionalized biases against them.

All other points of discussions are secondary and to support or disprove this accusation of yours, which I find unsubstantiated, motivated and caused by conditioned behavior (Heard of Pavlov's experiments on conditioned responses).

I have already proved in this thread that Indian Muslims are more literate than Pakistani Muslims in spite of a lower base in 1947. I think that is more than enough to blow away your points. Why are Pakistani Muslims behind not only Indians in general but behind even the supposedly discriminated Indian Muslims?

Let's discuss further when you give a satisfactory answer to this.

 

[roadrunner]

I have already proved in this thread that Indian Muslims are more literate than Pakistani Muslims in spite of a lower base in 1947. I think that is more than enough to blow away your points. Why are Pakistani Muslims behind not only Indians in general but behind even the supposedly discriminated Indian Muslims?

Let's discuss further when you give a satisfactory answer to this.

Indians had a higher base than Pakistanis in 1947. You did not prove to me that they had a lower one. Your statement is just wrong, as usual ;

Literate percent in India, 1947: 14%
"India's literacy rate at the time of independence (1947) was only 14% and female literacy was abysmally low at 8%."
http://www.ashanet.org/stanford/links/need.html

Literacy in Pakistan (west), 1947 : 7.6%
Table 6: Literacy rates in Pakistan (for population
aged 5 years and older), 1951–1961
1951
1961
Pakistan
14.0
17.5
East Pakistan
18.8
19.9
West Pakistan
7.6
14.4
Note: The literacy data for Census 1951 was adjusted for intercensal
differences in the definition of literacy. For details, see Akther (1963)

http://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/Economics/History/Paper63/63asadullah.pdf

So, Pakistan had a lower literacy "base" than India in 1947.

Pakistan had half the literacy of India in 1947. By this mark, Pakistan should still have half the literacy of Indian now. Yet, Indian literacy is 60%, Pakistan's literacy is 50%. Almost equal.

The conclusion is that Pakistan has made much greater strides in improving illiteracy than India. I am changing what I said before that India and Pakistan had made the same educational strides, to Pakistan has greatly outperformed India in educational improvements since 1947, according to census data. Try and disprove the figures I've quoted, instead of retorting with fiction. I've already proved you to be incorrect that Pakistan had a higher literacy "base" than India in 1947.

 

[Vinod2070]

Indians had a higher base than Pakistanis in 1947. You did not prove to me that they had a lower one. Your statement is just wrong, as usual ;

Literate percent in India, 1947: 14%
"India's literacy rate at the time of independence (1947) was only 14% and female literacy was abysmally low at 8%."
http://www.ashanet.org/stanford/links/need.html

Literacy in Pakistan (west), 1947 : 7.6%
Table 6: Literacy rates in Pakistan (for population
aged 5 years and older), 1951–1961
1951
1961
Pakistan
14.0
17.5
East Pakistan
18.8
19.9
West Pakistan
7.6
14.4
Note: The literacy data for Census 1951 was adjusted for intercensal
differences in the definition of literacy. For details, see Akther (1963)

http://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/Economics/History/Paper63/63asadullah.pdf

So, Pakistan had a lower literacy base than India in 1947.

Pakistan had half the literacy of India in 1947. By this mark, Pakistan should still have half the literacy of Indian now. Yet, Indian literacy is 60%, Pakistan's literacy is 50%. Almost equal.

The conclusion is that Pakistan has made much greater strides in improving illiteracy than India. I am changing what I said before that India and Pakistan had made the same educational strides, to Pakistan has greatly outperformed India in educational improvements since 1947, according to census data. Try and disprove the figures I've quoted, instead of retorting with fiction. I've already proved you to be incorrect that Pakistan had a higher literacy "base" than India in 1947.

Let me remind you, the discussion is about your insinuation that Muslims are less literate than others in India because of some kind of institutionalized biases against them.

Let's discuss this first. We can compare Indian and Pakistani advances in education once we are done with this.

The lower base in question here is for Indian Muslims after the migration of a significant Muslim middle class. It was obvious I feel, but I should have been more obvious considering the intended audience I suppose.

Even the statement that you quoted was obvious enough!


Read my previous post once more.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...slims-linked-games-bombings-6.html#post180357