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Chinese Demographics

Bussard Ramjet

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Ok, So I would like to have a discussion about demographics here. China has almost always had 26-28% of the world's population. And that too without including vassal states. Though historical estimates are aplenty and the ones before 1900s can vary a lot, there is still a lot of consensus among many people about demographic situation.

Why are demographics important?

The most fundamental unit for economic productivity in the world are humans. We have still not come to the stage when the advances in robotics and artificial intelligence could make humans obsolete.

The economy of a country is primarily determined by:

1. The number of humans
2. The amount of workforce
3. Fertility and Rate of Increase in the Population (This doesn't contribute to economics in the short term, but determines the human resources of the future.)
4. Productivity of humans

Natural Resources are a thing of course, but as we know, a human is still worth a lot of money, and is quite a productive unit in the economy.

Historical Trend:

Generally in history, population was determined by the availability of resources, most important of all, the availability of fresh water. Before the advent of civilization and agriculture, people were mostly nomadic, which limited their ability for large groups. Agriculture and Civilization was the game changer, that made large resident populations exist. The biggest of all was as we know in the Yellow and Yangtze valley deltas-- the fertile soil, along with fresh water, good environment, safe place, led to a large surge in population and hence civilization. It was the result of this large resident 'civilized' population that came out to be the Chinese Civilization, these people created everything.

Another game changer occurred during the Industrial revolution. Though technology and productivity have almost always been important, it was here, that we witnessed the historic disparity of productivity. Europe took off, productivity, technology and culture progressed. Coupled with unlimited supply of natural resources via Colonization, it led to the sudden explosion of Output and wealth. Not only this, the same part of the world also colonized, and used demographic and military warfare to subsume 3 continents of the present day. ( 2 Americas, Australia)

The final game changer -- Globalization. With the advent of the system of globalization, supported by international financial systems, transnational movement of capital, separation of church and state, boom of the private sector, property and technology -- first time after a long time, developing countries found it easy to promote productivity by entering a globalized world, inviting foreign capital and technology. The capital and technology, unlike during the days of Industrialization was not solely owned by the state. Private Players, in search from profit, live low productive places whose productivity can be augmented easily. It is of course, need less to say that it gets increasingly difficult to raise productivity from say $100 to $1000 to $5000 to $10000 to $ 25000 to $50000 to further.

Hence, in this globalized world, population, the size of it started to be again seen as an asset rather than a liability.


Present Day Demographic Principles:
1. Natural Resources don't seem to be any barrier to population growth. Science, and Technology have made the basic needs of humans for survival very pedestal.
2. The biggest limiter of growth seems to be education, individualism, and ambition.
It is generally found that the more a society progresses towards what is called the modern society, people start seeing kids as liabilities. People become very self-centered, individualistic. The motivations that dissuade them from having kids are:

1. Late marriage and setting down.
2. Opportunity cost of time that has to be spent.
3. Cost of raising the kid.
4. Disruption in the lives of parents, both economically and psychologically, during pregnancy, and post-birth care.
5. Individualism and loss of family ties, where family becomes increasingly less important and distant.

Now, I will discuss the Chinese Demographics in detail.
 
China could be the first country in history to grow old before it grows rich

China’s population is aging fast. According to official data, nearly 15 percent are over the age of 60. Last year, the working-age population fell by almost 2.5 million people. While the country has taken steps to boost its young population, including relaxing the one-child policy last year, many challenges still lie ahead. CCTV’s Grace Brown reported from Beijing.

Chinese women retire as early as 50 and men as early as 55. 58-year-old Ren Gong recently retired, but he isn’t worried about what lies ahead.

“I think we can manage it. I don’t want anything, other than to maintain my quality of life, health insurance, and pension,” he said.

To ease the growing burden of pensions, the government is considering raising retirement age by one month every year, but a time frame has yet to been announced.

According to the National Bureau of Statistics, by 2030 one in four Chinese will be over the age of 60, putting an unprecedented pressure on society. Some experts warn that China could be the first country in history to grow old before it grows rich.

“I think it’s a serious problem. Our nation must consider to prepare pensions for so many seniors. I’d like to retire at 60, but I know I can’t. There’s no other way,” a Chinese youth said.

A key cause of China’s aging population was the one-child policy put in place after a baby boom in the 1950’s and 1960’s.

Population expert Professor Zheng Zhenzhen of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences said that China will age faster than it will develop, which is a challenge no country has ever faced.

“We have lowered the mortality and fertility [rates] before getting rich. It is ahead of economic development,” Zheng said. “However, I believe China has the ability to cope if we respond in time.”

China relaxed it’s one-child policy in 2014, allowing couples in which one parent was an only child to have two children. But the government only received 1 million applications in 2014 for parents to have additional children — half the number it expected.

Zheng said career pressure is causing would-be parents to hesitate.

“I think nowadays, the environment in the workplace is not so friendly to mothers. There are no facilities for childcare and it’s not so friendly for women to be excused from office hours to take care of their children,” he said. “If we wish to have more children born, then the whole society, companies and the state, need to create a child-friendly environment.”

Yun Na is a working mom and due to have her second child in two months, after applying under the newly-relaxed policy. But she worries about balancing work with being a mother.

“I grew up alone. So I always wanted two children. Two is definitely harder to manage,” she said. “My husband and I both work. I can’t afford to quit my job, so the only way is if I continue going to work and my parents come to care for them.”

As China confronts an ever-graying population, it’s likely further action will be needed to encourage more parents like Yun Na in the future.

China could be the first country in history to grow old before it grows rich | CCTV America
 
What does getting old before getting rich mean? At even lower nominal growth rates of 6%, by 2030 China's GDP per capita would be almost equal to South Korea's at 19,000 nominal dollars, assuming no inflation or currency appreciation as well.

The retirement age in China is 60 for men, 55 for women. There is literally no other nation in the world with such generous retirement. Cutting back the retirement age might result in a backlash, but in an age of many older workers, fewer younger workers, the older workers will not resent it as much since they'll get to keep their higher paying jobs rather than survive off a small pension.
 
What does getting old before getting rich mean? At even lower nominal growth rates of 6%, by 2030 China's GDP per capita would be almost equal to South Korea's at 19,000 nominal dollars, assuming no inflation or currency appreciation as well.

The retirement age in China is 60 for men, 55 for women. There is literally no other nation in the world with such generous retirement. Cutting back the retirement age might result in a backlash, but in an age of many older workers, fewer younger workers, the older workers will not resent it as much since they'll get to keep their higher paying jobs rather than survive off a small pension.


What it means is that the population will start to shrink pre maturely. Generally the population growth rate is heavily correlated to percapita GDP. The population growth rate of China vs equivalent percapita GDP is already an extreme case, as in the population growth and fertility is too low. If this continues, the population will start shrinking around 2025, much before attaining even $25k percapita GDP.
 
What it means is that the population will start to shrink pre maturely. Generally the population growth rate is heavily correlated to percapita GDP. The population growth rate of China vs equivalent percapita GDP is already an extreme case, as in the population growth and fertility is too low. If this continues, the population will start shrinking around 2025, much before attaining even $25k percapita GDP.

So basically no worse than South Korea today lol? I don't get the point?
 
1024px-Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg.png


These are the population fertility rates.

So basically no worse than South Korea today lol? I don't get the point?

Yes, a little like that. But South Korea hasn't really faced the worse of it. Actually the fertility rate of Korea is lower than Japan! And Japan's population is shrinking. You may ask why isn't Korea's. The answer is due to population lag effect. You may like to read about it. In short I will explain it like this:

1.
South_Korea_1955_09_01.png


South Korea in 1955. What we can see here is that the population between 20-30 is generally the child rearing population. They give births to children. In this graph we see that in 1955, the fertility rates are 2-3 because the children being born are twice the people in 20-30 age group. The people are reproducing. The aged are less.


South_Korea_1970_10_01.png


This is 1970. Here you can see the children just born have already started declining compared to previous years. After 15 years people really old have died which weren't many in 1955 or even in 1970. The fertility rate has started to come down to 1-2.
South_Korea_1980_11_01.png


1980

South_Korea_1985_11_01.png

1985


South_Korea_1990_11_01.png



1990

South_Korea_1995_11_01.png

1995

South_Korea_2000_11_01.png

2000

South_Korea_2005_11_01.png




2005

You can see in this evolution of population that the fertility rate has finally declined to 1-1.4 and there are very few children getting born. Once the current generation of adults die, Korea's population will effectively reduce to half of the current population.
 
I've read it. Chinese and Koreans are different though. If there's anything Chinese are good at besides cooking and studying, its producing Chinese babies. Koreans have a more rigid culture than Chinese and higher pressure lifestyle than Chinese. Unlike South Korea, there is no single company or conglomerate that makes up most of China's GDP, meaning that people have freedom to quit stressful jobs they don't like. Stressful jobs is one of the biggest contributors to low birth rates in Korea/Japan. There's a very large rural population. Chinese food prices do not depend on the global market. Both mean that there are no hard limits (yet) on Chinese population. The cultural expectation is for married couples to have children. Childless couples that are now common in Korea are unheard of in China.

Also, I think the demographics may be underreported due to people hiding from the family planning officials.

I'm pretty confident that within a few years the birth rate will stabilize or somewhat reverse. It won't ever down to Korean or Japanese levels.
 
I've read it. Chinese and Koreans are different though. If there's anything Chinese are good at besides cooking and studying, its producing Chinese babies. Koreans have a more rigid culture than Chinese and higher pressure lifestyle than Chinese. Unlike South Korea, there is no single company or conglomerate that makes up most of China's GDP, meaning that people have freedom to quit stressful jobs they don't like. Stressful jobs is one of the biggest contributors to low birth rates in Korea/Japan. There's a very large rural population. Chinese food prices do not depend on the global market. Both mean that there are no hard limits (yet) on Chinese population. The cultural expectation is for married couples to have children. Childless couples that are now common in Korea are unheard of in China.

Also, I think the demographics may be underreported due to people hiding from the family planning officials.

I'm pretty confident that within a few years the birth rate will stabilize or somewhat reverse. It won't ever down to Korean or Japanese levels.


1. China's problem is already worse than both Japan and Korea. In coming decades, China is going to suffer the worst crisis in demographics ever. The population in work force will decline considerably.

2. Japan is not dominated by any one company, yet there is very less will to have children.

3. The biggest contributor to low fertility rates is -
a. Economic Status
b. Family ties
c. Support Structure for women in jobs
d. Individualism and Ambition (Materialism)
e. Cost of raising Kids, both in time and money



4. Already the fertility rates in China are almost as low as in Korea, dude! As more Chinese get educated and have burden of jobs and ambition and get individualistic, fertility rates will further dive.

5. Most people and politicians, even in China, don't think much about a problem that will happen 20 years down the road. China has got huge population problems. It doesn't have a culture of immigration. It will get harder down the road, until something is done now!


 
1. China's problem is already worse than both Japan and Korea. In coming decades, China is going to suffer the worst crisis in demographics ever. The population in work force will decline considerably.

2. Japan is not dominated by any one company, yet there is very less will to have children.

3. The biggest contributor to low fertility rates is -
a. Economic Status
b. Family ties
c. Support Structure for women in jobs
d. Individualism and Ambition (Materialism)
e. Cost of raising Kids, both in time and money



4. Already the fertility rates in China are almost as low as in Korea, dude! As more Chinese get educated and have burden of jobs and ambition and get individualistic, fertility rates will further dive.

5. Most people and politicians, even in China, don't think much about a problem that will happen 20 years down the road. China has got huge population problems. It doesn't have a culture of immigration. It will get harder down the road, until something is done now!

How can it be worse than Korea and Japan when the fertility rate is higher and in fact rising?

Fertility rate, total (births per woman) | Data | Graph

Biggest contributors to fertility rate, like I said, is much more favorable for China than Korea/Japan:

a. Economic Status - large rural population has lower economic status with high demand for labor, which favors children.

b. Family ties - strong cultural pressures to have children. Grandparents help take care of children.

c. Support Structure for women in jobs - paid maternity leave plus the concept of 坐月子 (an extra month's break where women rest at home and take care of the baby), which even US doesn't have.

d. Individualism and Ambition (Materialism) - Many Chinese aren't that ambitious. The stereotype of Koreans in China is workaholic, while Chinese are satisfied with 安分守己,随遇而安 - just calm down, take care of yourself.

e. Cost of raising Kids, both in time and money - in Chinese families, grandparents help take care of children often since they have early retirement age.
 
How can it be worse than Korea and Japan when the fertility rate is higher and in fact rising?

Fertility rate, total (births per woman) | Data | Graph

Biggest contributors to fertility rate, like I said, is much more favorable for China than Korea/Japan:

a. Economic Status - large rural population has lower economic status with high demand for labor, which favors children.

b. Family ties - strong cultural pressures to have children. Grandparents help take care of children.

c. Support Structure for women in jobs - paid maternity leave plus the concept of 坐月子 (an extra month's break where women rest at home and take care of the baby), which even US doesn't have.

d. Individualism and Ambition (Materialism) - Many Chinese aren't that ambitious. The stereotype of Koreans in China is workaholic, while Chinese are satisfied with 安分守己,随遇而安 - just calm down, take care of yourself.

e. Cost of raising Kids, both in time and money - in Chinese families, grandparents help take care of children often since they have early retirement age.
我认为你过于乐观了,根本不了解实际情况,现在中国生育率下降,计划生育的作用已经非常小了。主要的作用是经济的,教育的,文化的。现在的女性受教育水平大幅提高,很多女性不愿意为了生孩子而影响自己的人生,职业规划。何况很多还出现了剩女的怪诞现象。婚育年龄大幅推后。何况现在养育一个孩子的成本已经太高了,从幼儿时期的奶粉费到上学时期的各种开销,都是沉重的负担,这也会促使人们少生子女。何况抚养孩子要占用大量时间精力,对于年轻人来说,现代娱乐文化那么发达,要忍受如此枯燥无味是不可能的
中国所谓大量农村人口也不是实际情况,因为这些人口都是户籍上的,而不是真正意义上的农村人口,看看每年的春运你就知道了,中国的人口城市化有多么剧烈,只是农民工尚未取得城市户籍而已。
老龄化的恶果不仅在于养老负担,而且老年人的消费倾向天然不如年轻人,没有消费,我们何来经济,内部市场不扩大,我们的经济状况是不可能好的。何况老龄化的社会还缺乏活力,不利于创新。日本失去的二十年很大程度上是因为其老龄化的人口结构,而且以日本目前的人口状况,日本将继续沉沦。

虽然我本人也认为高福利制度是一种不可持续的制度,但是实事求是地说,很难认为欧洲的低生育率与福利制度有关。欧洲福利制度中的有些部分确实会压低生育意愿,如养老金制度和医保制度,使得人们不再养儿防老。但是另一方面,欧洲福利制度中有许多是降低生育和养育成本的,是有利于提高生育率的,如产假制度,如廉租房,如免费公立教育等等,我们知道生育率低下很大程度上是因为生育成本和养育成本过高,这是一系列东亚国家福利制度低下,却陷入低生育率陷阱的原因,而欧洲的福利制度实际上使得生育成本和养育成本下降了。问题在于低生育率最根本的问题在于,人们对于子女的观念转变,以前人们对子女要求很低,生出来养活就行。现在不一样,现在要把他们培养成人,而这段成本极高,耗费极多时间,除非是闭塞的乡村,人们没有太多的娱乐活动,人们才能忍受住这样,而大城市是不可能的,因此我认为低生育率是不可逆转的现象,暂时并没有什么办法解决

I think in the future,we can receive immigrants from Laos,the Philippines,Cambodia and Burma,they still have a young population,also the people from those countries are Mongoloids,their look similar to Chinese,so they can integrate into Chinese society easily than other peoples.
 
Ok, So I would like to have a discussion about demographics here. China has almost always had 26-28% of the world's population. And that too without including vassal states. Though historical estimates are aplenty and the ones before 1900s can vary a lot, there is still a lot of consensus among many people about demographic situation.

Why are demographics important?

The most fundamental unit for economic productivity in the world are humans. We have still not come to the stage when the advances in robotics and artificial intelligence could make humans obsolete.

The economy of a country is primarily determined by:

1. The number of humans
2. The amount of workforce
3. Fertility and Rate of Increase in the Population (This doesn't contribute to economics in the short term, but determines the human resources of the future.)
4. Productivity of humans

Natural Resources are a thing of course, but as we know, a human is still worth a lot of money, and is quite a productive unit in the economy.

Historical Trend:

Generally in history, population was determined by the availability of resources, most important of all, the availability of fresh water. Before the advent of civilization and agriculture, people were mostly nomadic, which limited their ability for large groups. Agriculture and Civilization was the game changer, that made large resident populations exist. The biggest of all was as we know in the Yellow and Yangtze valley deltas-- the fertile soil, along with fresh water, good environment, safe place, led to a large surge in population and hence civilization. It was the result of this large resident 'civilized' population that came out to be the Chinese Civilization, these people created everything.

Another game changer occurred during the Industrial revolution. Though technology and productivity have almost always been important, it was here, that we witnessed the historic disparity of productivity. Europe took off, productivity, technology and culture progressed. Coupled with unlimited supply of natural resources via Colonization, it led to the sudden explosion of Output and wealth. Not only this, the same part of the world also colonized, and used demographic and military warfare to subsume 3 continents of the present day. ( 2 Americas, Australia)

The final game changer -- Globalization. With the advent of the system of globalization, supported by international financial systems, transnational movement of capital, separation of church and state, boom of the private sector, property and technology -- first time after a long time, developing countries found it easy to promote productivity by entering a globalized world, inviting foreign capital and technology. The capital and technology, unlike during the days of Industrialization was not solely owned by the state. Private Players, in search from profit, live low productive places whose productivity can be augmented easily. It is of course, need less to say that it gets increasingly difficult to raise productivity from say $100 to $1000 to $5000 to $10000 to $ 25000 to $50000 to further.

Hence, in this globalized world, population, the size of it started to be again seen as an asset rather than a liability.


Present Day Demographic Principles:
1. Natural Resources don't seem to be any barrier to population growth. Science, and Technology have made the basic needs of humans for survival very pedestal.
2. The biggest limiter of growth seems to be education, individualism, and ambition.
It is generally found that the more a society progresses towards what is called the modern society, people start seeing kids as liabilities. People become very self-centered, individualistic. The motivations that dissuade them from having kids are:

1. Late marriage and setting down.
2. Opportunity cost of time that has to be spent.
3. Cost of raising the kid.
4. Disruption in the lives of parents, both economically and psychologically, during pregnancy, and post-birth care.
5. Individualism and loss of family ties, where family becomes increasingly less important and distant.

Now, I will discuss the Chinese Demographics in detail.


I hate to sound like a proponent of Malthusian theoretical framework, but we can't ignore the ecological aspect of population dynamic(s).

Please refer: Population dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
1024px-Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg.png


These are the population fertility rates.



Yes, a little like that. But South Korea hasn't really faced the worse of it. Actually the fertility rate of Korea is lower than Japan! And Japan's population is shrinking. You may ask why isn't Korea's. The answer is due to population lag effect. You may like to read about it. In short I will explain it like this:

1.
South_Korea_1955_09_01.png


South Korea in 1955. What we can see here is that the population between 20-30 is generally the child rearing population. They give births to children. In this graph we see that in 1955, the fertility rates are 2-3 because the children being born are twice the people in 20-30 age group. The people are reproducing. The aged are less.


South_Korea_1970_10_01.png


This is 1970. Here you can see the children just born have already started declining compared to previous years. After 15 years people really old have died which weren't many in 1955 or even in 1970. The fertility rate has started to come down to 1-2.
South_Korea_1980_11_01.png


1980

South_Korea_1985_11_01.png

1985


South_Korea_1990_11_01.png



1990

South_Korea_1995_11_01.png

1995

South_Korea_2000_11_01.png

2000

South_Korea_2005_11_01.png




2005

You can see in this evolution of population that the fertility rate has finally declined to 1-1.4 and there are very few children getting born. Once the current generation of adults die, Korea's population will effectively reduce to half of the current population.

Sigh...this is not the first such post on PDF and I highly doubt it will be the last. I will repeat what I have discussed in the past.

The fundamental problem with these articles is that they are attempting to analyze China as if it is another western country. These models and trend predictions are made with the assumption that Chinese culture is the same the western culture, Chinese history is the same as western history and Chinese politics works the same way as their western counterpart. Needless to say, these assumptions are incorrect; therefore, it should not be surprising that the predictions made based on these assumption are often inaccurate.

For fertility rate, the western model often neglect very important parameters such as government policies and culture attitude. This is not surprising, since in the past few decades, these models are only applied to western countries or very westernized countries. These countries typically has similar government policies towards fertility rate (basically nothing) and their cultures are similar anyway. If you apply the same predictions to countries with different styles of leadership and culture, such as the historical USSR (different style of leadership), Muslim nations (different leadership style and different culture) or China (different leadership style and different culture), the method inevitably breaks down. In fact, even Japan and Korea act differently. This is because even though they have similar leadership styles to their western counterparts, their culture is quite different. This is why even though both North European nations and Japan has similar portion of aged population, Japan is still much more competitive than their North European counterparts.

For China specifically, the first and foremost thing to remember is that China is THE MOST policy driven country in the world. The current fertility trend is an artificial controlled trend created by social and political policies. Consequently, increasing the fertility rate is really only a matter of policy modification. This is vastly in contrast to western countries or countries with weak central government such India where the fertility rate is only affected by the overall economic development, something that is very difficult to change.
 
我认为你过于乐观了,根本不了解实际情况,现在中国生育率下降,计划生育的作用已经非常小了。主要的作用是经济的,教育的,文化的。现在的女性受教育水平大幅提高,很多女性不愿意为了生孩子而影响自己的人生,职业规划。何况很多还出现了剩女的怪诞现象。婚育年龄大幅推后。何况现在养育一个孩子的成本已经太高了,从幼儿时期的奶粉费到上学时期的各种开销,都是沉重的负担,这也会促使人们少生子女。何况抚养孩子要占用大量时间精力,对于年轻人来说,现代娱乐文化那么发达,要忍受如此枯燥无味是不可能的
中国所谓大量农村人口也不是实际情况,因为这些人口都是户籍上的,而不是真正意义上的农村人口,看看每年的春运你就知道了,中国的人口城市化有多么剧烈,只是农民工尚未取得城市户籍而已。
老龄化的恶果不仅在于养老负担,而且老年人的消费倾向天然不如年轻人,没有消费,我们何来经济,内部市场不扩大,我们的经济状况是不可能好的。何况老龄化的社会还缺乏活力,不利于创新。日本失去的二十年很大程度上是因为其老龄化的人口结构,而且以日本目前的人口状况,日本将继续沉沦。

虽然我本人也认为高福利制度是一种不可持续的制度,但是实事求是地说,很难认为欧洲的低生育率与福利制度有关。欧洲福利制度中的有些部分确实会压低生育意愿,如养老金制度和医保制度,使得人们不再养儿防老。但是另一方面,欧洲福利制度中有许多是降低生育和养育成本的,是有利于提高生育率的,如产假制度,如廉租房,如免费公立教育等等,我们知道生育率低下很大程度上是因为生育成本和养育成本过高,这是一系列东亚国家福利制度低下,却陷入低生育率陷阱的原因,而欧洲的福利制度实际上使得生育成本和养育成本下降了。问题在于低生育率最根本的问题在于,人们对于子女的观念转变,以前人们对子女要求很低,生出来养活就行。现在不一样,现在要把他们培养成人,而这段成本极高,耗费极多时间,除非是闭塞的乡村,人们没有太多的娱乐活动,人们才能忍受住这样,而大城市是不可能的,因此我认为低生育率是不可逆转的现象,暂时并没有什么办法解决

I think in the future,we can receive immigrants from Laos,the Philippines,Cambodia and Burma,they still have a young population,also the people from those countries are Mongoloids,their look similar to Chinese,so they can integrate into Chinese society easily than other peoples.
No need to. A change in government policies will increase fertility rate.

Or increase these import to China. Duck fetus and durian for population boom
 
No need to. A change in government policies will increase fertility rate.

Or increase these import to China. Duck fetus and durian for population boom
你可以降低生育率,却无法提高生育率。这不是改变政策就有用的。改变政策有什么用?无非就是增加产假,发婴儿花红,教育免费以及廉租房等,但是这些都不足以提高生育率。因为生育率下降是城市化的必然。你去看看周边的80后,90后,结婚年龄是不是比他们的父母推后了?我国六七十年代生育率高达6-7,现在有几个父母愿意生育这么多孩子的?我周边同事几乎没有愿意生两个以上的,25岁以前结婚的很少。文化已经变了,现在是城市化,而且已经经历了工业化了,然而你们却以为靠政策就能提升生育率,我只能说政策的作用微乎其微
 
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