Chinese Aero Engine information thread

[kuge]

I can understand what Martian2 is trying to say but what is your point in your single liner?

A smokeless engine can only means 2 thing - the state-of-art metallurgy resulting in higher operation temperature and precision machining.

RMAF SU-30MKM has been smoking since the day they were inducted in the service.

Now only 5 out of 18 SU-30MKM are only fully operational at any one time, the rest are waiting for spareparts, etc.

i m saying let see if the engine emits smoke after 5 years or more due to wear & tear & maintenance quality.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

RMAF operates the same identical flanker version as operated by Indian Air Force .
Our MKI does smoke & I have not seen RMAF MKM smoke during flying.
Can you provide picture of it.

Nope but I did seen it with my own eyes. So seeing is believing.

QUOTE="Manindra, post: 7554047, member: 143441"]
AL-31 FP engine life is already 1500 hrs.
AL-31FN is not such old engine then why its only 900 hrs ?[/QUOTE]
It is strange that you guys keep quoting a figure of 1500 hrs for the AL-31FP when the IAF themselves officially confirmed it at 1000 hrs.

The Rusting Sukhoi Dips India’s Fighting Fleet
By PRADIP R Sagar

Published: 14th Dec 2014

NEW DELHI: Russian President Vladimir Putin’s recent India visit may have strengthened the ties between the two countries, but it’s still a question if it can resurrect India’s weakened fleet of Sukhois.

You can avoid the servicing of your car, but you can’t afford to do that with the country’s frontline Russian-made fighter jet fleet. The government, however, has done exactly that. Consequence: four air crashes and one death. The last Sukhoi-30 crash happened in Pune, in October, which led to the grounding of the entire fleet for a month, the longest ever it was inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) since 1997, for maintenance checks.

Statistically speaking, the government has spent a whopping `2,263 crore in the last three years on repair and maintenance of its fleet of 200 Sukhois.

Details of the sorry state of affairs of the Sukhoi-30 fleet are now tumbling out. An internal audit carried out by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at the behest of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has revealed there have been six cases of engine oil leak from aircraft accessory gear box—all arising out of poor quality control. The aircraft and gear boxes are under warranty, and the matter has been brought up with the Russians.

IAF sources told The Sunday Standard that the fleet has also faced several mid-air engine failure incidents in the past two years. IAF chief Arup Raha even admitted recently that the IAF’s Sukhoi fleet has maintenance issues which are being rectified.

Internal audit was carried out at the Sukhoi Engines Maintenance Division in Koraput, Odisha, which was set up in 2007 to overhaul engines of the Su-30 Mki, ever since the Russian jets were inducted into IAF in 1997. The Sukhoi engine maintenance plant has so far claimed to have overhauled over than 150 engines of Su-30.

The internal audit has also found various ineffective quality control systems. “Unclear documents, translation errors, deviations of actual part dimensions from the laid down technology limits, non-user-friendly and complex reference of technology have led to frequent updates and clarifications from the original equipment manufacturers,” the internal audit has pointed out.

Surprisingly, the Russian manufacturer has not been able to provide the HAL maintenance team a detailed translated manual from Russian to English. While disclosing shortcomings in the Transfer of Technology (ToT), the audit team has observed that “more than 4,000 change notices have been issued by the OEM (original equipment manufacturer), which is an indicator of severe shortcomings in the ToT.”

The Sukhoi-30 fleet was grounded for a month after the Pune incident. Sources said the main problem stems from “unresolved issues pertaining to repair and overhaul” between India and Russia, because of which maintenance of the fighter aircraft fleet has been suffering.

Sources added that because of mounting complaints, IAF HAS STARTED SERVICING THE ENGINES OF THESE FIGHTER JETS AFTER 700 FLYING HOURS, INSTEAD OF THE STIPULATED 1000 hours. Moreover, as a precautionary measure, “the engines are also being modified according to specifications provided by the Russian manufacturer. The engineering is being handled in Odisha by HAL.” IAF’s fleet of over 200 Sukhoi aircraft represents almost one third of India’s fighter jet fleet. While the aircraft are based at Bathinda, Halwara, Sirsa, Bareilly, Jodhpur and Bhuj in the North and West, its two squadrons are based at Tezpur and Chabua in the East.

Su-30MKI enjoys air superiority because of its engines. In horizontal flight, it can fly at 2,400 kmph or achieve a rate of climb of 230 metres per second.

The audit has also come down heavily on Sukhoi maintenance division for poor performance, which ultimately forced the IAF to depend on Russian engineers for the fighter jets’ repair and maintenance despite substantial money that has been spent in setting up repair and overhaul facility at HAL, Koraput.

“Corrective measures taken by the Sukhoi engine division were found to be very generic in nature, with very little emphasis on addressing the root cause,” the audit says. During the audit, it emerged that there is no system in place to ensure that all the publications supplied by the Russian manufacturers are updated as per the latest amendments received from time to time in the form of bulletins or change notices.

When contacted, neither the MoD nor the HAL responded to The Sunday Standard for clarification.

But an official of the Sukhoi engine division, Odisha, said on condition of anonymity, “Yes, there were some inherent design deficiencies in the technology provided by the Russian manufacturers, which are being raised constant with them. Translation errors in the manual were also noticed. But, the IAF is taking some of the corrective measures as advised by the Russians.”

i m saying let see if the engine emits smoke after 5 years or more due to wear & tear & maintenance quality.

LOL That would depends on how well these engines are maintained,don't you agree?

But I still do not get your point on the above or the earlier post.?

One personal observation is Russian jet fighters do emit more visible exhaust smokes than most other made.

Martian2 statement that "Interestingly, recent Russian AL-31 engines are almost smokeless." is worth researching into.

How much time does it take to make one as compared to a regular J-35

China is already testing a world class LBP WS-15 engine and it ought to be ready for initial mass production by latest 2017.


I will post an interesting article by Martin on the WorldDefense Forum back in June, 20, 2012 on the issue of high bypass ratio for non-supercruising F-35 and low bypass ratio for supercruising F-22 and J-20.

World Turbofan Aircraft Engines

19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)
19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.

18 tons of wet thrust
18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.

15 tons of wet thrust
15.6 tons (for F-22) - Pratt & Whitney F119 (IOC 2004). F119 has a low bypass ratio and F-22 can supercruise.

15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)

14 tons of wet thrust
14.5 tons (for T-50/Pak-Fa) - AL-41F (in service 2010)

13 tons of wet thrust
13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)

13.2 tons (for Russian Su-30) - AL-31FM1 (in service 2007)

12 tons of wet thrust
12.5 tons (for J-10A) - AL-31FN (in service 2002)

8 tons of wet thrust
8.9 tons (for Eurofighter Typhoon) - Eurojet EJ200 (in service 1991)

7 tons of wet thrust
7.5 tons (for French Rafale) - Snecma M88-2 (in service 1996)

----------

References:

F135 (US): Pratt & Whitney F135 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WS-15 (China): WS15
WS-15
F119 (US): F119-PW-100
Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WS-10G (China): J-15 (Jianjiji-15 Fighter aircraft 15) / F-15
Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-41F (Russia): Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WS-10A (China): Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-31FM1 (Russia): Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AL-31FN (Russia): Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
EJ200 (European consortium): Eurojet EJ200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
M88-2 (France): Snecma M88
Snecma M88 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Citation for high bypass turbofans and subsonic speed from Global Security.

Military Aviation Engines

"High bypass turbofans, meaning bypass ratios in the range of 5 to 9, power virtually all transports designed to cruise at high subsonic speeds. High bypass ratio engines provide increased takeoff thrust, low environmental noise, and low specific fuel consumption. The development of the first high bypass ratio turbofans, the TF39 for the C-5A and the JT9D for the Boeing 747, required nearly doubling the cycle pressure ratio from the 12:1 of the JT3/J79 series of jets, and increasing the turbine inlet temperature.

The newest high bypass turbofans have cycle pressure ratios greater than 40:1 and have been made possible by advancements in high temperature materials and cooling technology. In a general sense, increases in hot section materials capability and turbine cooling techniques have paced the development of high pressure ratio engines. Today, turbofans range in size from small missile engines by Teledyne and Williams International, to behemoths in the 100,000 pound thrust class for large transports."

Secondary citation on high bypass ratio turbofan engine:

Overall pressure ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Military engines are often forced to work under conditions that maximize the heating load. For instance, the General Dynamics F-111 was required to operate at speeds of Mach 1.1 at sea level. As a side-effect of these wide operating conditions, and generally older technology in most cases, military engines typically have lower overall pressure ratios. The Pratt & Whitney TF30 used on the F-111 had a pressure ratio of about 20:1, while newer engines like the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F135 have improved this to about 30:1.

An additional issue is weight: a higher compression ratio implies a heavier engine, which in turn costs fuel to carry around. Thus, for a particular construction technology and set of flight plans an optimal overall pressure ratio can be determined."

[Note: Thank you to ChineseTiger1986 for highlighting the issue of high bypass ratio for non-supercruising F-35 and low bypass ratio for supercruising F-22 and J-20.]

 

[Manindra]

Nope but I did seen it with my own eyes. So seeing is believing.


It is strange that you guys keep quoting a figure of 1500 hrs for the AL-31FP when the IAF themselves officially confirmed it at 1000 hrs.



Sources added that because of mounting complaints, IAF HAS STARTED SERVICING THE ENGINES OF THESE FIGHTER JETS AFTER 700 FLYING HOURS, INSTEAD OF THE STIPULATED 1000 hours. Moreover, as a precautionary measure, “the engines are also being modified according to specifications provided by the Russian manufacturer. The engineering is being handled in Odisha by HAL.” IAF’s fleet of over 200 Sukhoi aircraft represents almost one third of India’s fighter jet fleet. While the aircraft are based at Bathinda, Halwara, Sirsa, Bareilly, Jodhpur and Bhuj in the North and West, its two squadrons are based at Tezpur and Chabua in the East.

You are quoting MBTO (Mean-Time-Between-Overhaul) figure which is 1000 hrs for AL-31FP but IAF do on 700 hrs due to tropical condition to prevent any mishap.
AL-31FP total engine life us 1500 hrs after that it would replaced by new engine.

 

[Martian2]

The only explanation is Chinese 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tools to manufacture smokeless Chinese WS-10A turbofan engines.

In the video screen-shot below, a squadron of Russian Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.

Also, Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.
----------

In contrast, China's first indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine has zero smoke (see two-minute video below).

How do you explain the discrepancy between the smoky Russian AL-31 turbofan engines and China's smoke-free WS-10A turbofan engine? What does China have that Russia lacks?

The only explanation is China's production and use of 3-micron five-axis CNC machine tools. Chinese machine tools are just as good as American ones. Thus, both countries have smoke-free turbofan engines.

 

[Al-Taïr]

World Turbofan Aircraft Engines
F-22 and J-20.]

Is there any engine in the market with about 10ton thrust vectoring, & no supercruise. ?

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Is there any engine in the market with about 10ton thrust vectoring, & no supercruise. ?

Perhaps not exactly 10 tons. Lesser or more.

The Chengdu Gas Turbine Research Institute revealed at the 2008 Airshow China in Zhuhai, it was developing a 9.5 ton-thrust turbofan and even display a model.

This could be WS-12X turbofan. Maybe it is intended for the J-21 or 31 stealth fighter. Little is known about the development of this engine at this point. Some says it is cancelled but I am pretty sure, the development is still going on based on what we read.

But it seems that they are also developing another 8.7 tons turbofan designated WS-13 and that will be tested on future JF-17 to replace the Russian powerplant.

No idea whether it can propel JF-17 for supercruise or not. 3D thrust-vectoring is not new to China but based on RMAF experience, the thrust vectoring nozzle has very short and limited lifespan. They needed to be replaced after 150 hours.

Right now, PAF appeared to be satisfied with the Klimov RD-93 that is installed on the JF-17.

Delivery Ceremony for the FORGING parts of WS-15 by Xian Hong Yuan Aviation Forging & Casting Industry Company way back in 2006. So the testing for WS-15 program should be quite mature by today.

This morning I witnessed smokes being emitted by the low flying SU-30MKM performing the pre-Merdeka Day rehearsal. These are not contrail because I can easily see the black color smoke.

I am surprised that all the 4 low flying RMAF USA made F-18 also emitted black smokes as well.

 

[Al-Taïr]

3D thrust-vectoring is not new to China but based on RMAF experience, the thrust vectoring nozzle has very short and limited lifespan. They needed to be replaced after 150 hours.

Right now, PAF appeared to be satisfied with the Klimov RD-93 that is installed on the JF-17.

1..I would be a sight to see 3D tvn in thunder. . & i wonder if thunder would be able to outperform F-16 in dog fight ..
2..Right now PAF is not using AESA, & no twin seat.. I am no expert but this two upgrades alone will effect t/w (let alone other avionics stuff). & under 1 t/w for a jet that performs under par when it comes to bvr... Thats just plain bad..
. They need a more powerfull engine.

 

[aliaselin]

QC280/QD 280 燃 气 否 49,957.76 2,765.89 43,463.72 是 99.12% 3,987 是 根据公司第七届董 事会第五次会议决

Second production line of QC280 has finished 99.12%

三代中等 推力航空 发动机生 产线建设 项目 否 96,123.84 6,415.36 49,213.99 否 51.20% 10,309 当前为建设期，收 益无法计算。

WS-13 production line has finished 51.2%

日前，在四川江油“高空台”，某型发动机历经了一个多月的调试、排故，终于顺利完成试车。中航工业董事长林左鸣亲临试车现场，慰问参试人员，并为中航工业发动机总经理庞为以及动力所所长李宏新、副总师李泳凡等6人颁发了“航空报国金奖”。

林左鸣详细了解了某型发动机研制情况，并对动力所某型发动机研制取得的成果给予了高度评价，林左鸣说：“自某型发动机立项后，中航工业动力所在项目研制过程中勇于承担、努力拼搏、攻坚克难，取得了累累硕果。”

在场人员倍受鼓舞，更是深感责任重大。某型发动机研制团队立志在日后的研制工作中继续攻坚克难，再创佳绩。

This may be the most important news of the year

 

[aliaselin]

随着某重点型号发动机研制工作的进行，在发动机与飞机对接过程中出现了结构干涉问题。为解决这一问题，主机所对公司的多型作动器提出改型设计要求。装机工作刻不容缓、空间结构紧凑有限，改型设计的攻关战已经打响，改进升级的任务迫在眉睫。对于久经沙场的队员们来说，这早已司空见惯

14T WS-10 is tested on fighter

作为我国为某飞机配套的首次新研的串联式涡轮冲压组合发动机项目，没有可借鉴的先例，但却难不住他们这些敢打硬仗、勇于挑战的团队成员。

Turbine based combined cycle(TBCC) engine is on development

 

[aliaselin]

当一枚白色火箭从大漠深处拔地而起，与无垠的蓝天交相辉映成一幅美丽的画面时，试验场上，中国航天科技集团公司四院试验队员沸腾了。该院科研团队经过长期的矢志创新和刻苦攻关，自主研发的某新型冲压发动机攻克了多项关键技术难关，终于获得成功，使我国在该领域达到国际先进水平。

Solid-fuel flow-variable ramjet has been successfully tested

 

[cirr]

Solid-fuel flow-variable ramjet has been successfully tested

CASC's solid-fuel scramjet。。。

Liquid-fuel scramjet was first flight-tested by CASIC in 2012.

 

[aliaselin]

CASC's solid-fuel scramjet。。。

Liquid-fuel scramjet was first flight-tested by CASIC in 2012.

Actually not. This news has talked about the biggest hurdle of the research is valve, so it may talk about a ramjet which is to be used by PL-21

 

[cirr]

Actually not. This news has talked about the biggest hurdle of the research is valve, so it may talk about a ramjet which is to be used by PL-21

Absolutely not。

This tech will be used to develop，among other things，a Mach 6+ hypersonic cruise missile which should be operationally deployable before or by 2020，as per the ”Plan“。

 

[aliaselin]

Absolutely not。

This tech will be used to develop，among other things，a Mach 6+ hypersonic cruise missile which should be operationally deployable before or by 2020，as per the ”Plan“。

2012年，由该院承担的国内首次可变流量固体冲压发动机，在试验新区自由射流试验台成功地进行了试验，多项重大预研演示试验任务全面完成，多项关键技术攻关取得阶段性突破;主动引射高空模拟试验台建成，主要设施相继建成并投入使用，试验新区已全面具备试验条件。

The plan you talked about is implemented by CASIC the 3rd instutituon，not CASC the 4th institution

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

@Martian2