Chinese Aero Engine information thread

[ChineseTiger1986]

To be honest, I've never seen an AL-31 smoke.

The selling point of Russian engines over Chinese ones is their relatively brief spool-up time.

The AL-31F is better to takeoff from the ski-jump carrier than the WS-10H.

 

[Martian2]

Russian fighter engines are known for being smoky.

Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.

In the video screen-shot below (from a Russian airshow), a squadron of Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

1. I think most of the western publications are leaning towards the idea that both engine types on the J-20 are Russian.

2. There is still room for uncertainty. No one is 100% sure. The silver-nozzle variant has features that point in different directions. You can argue petal numbers (pointing toward Russian) or nozzle shape (pointing toward Chinese).

3. China is constantly upgrading its technology. New engine variants are being tested. We usually find out a few years after the fact.

4. Most of the western publications have stated that China will use a WS-10 variant or the WS-15 in the production version of the J-20.

In my view, I prefer to wait until the production version. It's only two to three years away. All of the ambiguities will disappear.

It does not required a rocket scientists to figure that out. Apart from the diameter, all one has to do is to listen to the sound of both the engines - AL31F is particularly high pitch while the engines currently tested on the J-20 sound more like one with a higher bypass.

The size of the petals used to be a good indicative guide but with the introduction of the longer black nozzle for the latest Taihang engine, it is no longer the case.

I agree with you, the pace which China has assimilated and evolved the technology is amazing, it has been at the turning point since 2009 following the breakthrough.Time will be the best witness e.g. J-10.

Russian fighter engines are known for being smoky.

Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.

In the video screen-shot below (from a Russian airshow), a squadron of Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.

I agree with you. All Russian engines are smoky. The RD series engine on the JF-17 are very smoky. Although Russians are great aeronautical engineers and designers but they are let down by their obsolescent military complex.
e.g. IAF complained of midair stalling of the engines on its Russian MiG as well as Sukhoi, Russian radar constant blackout during flight.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Yes, the WS-10 has higher bypass ratio than the AL-31, and hopefully the coming WS-15 could have a lower one.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

The AL-31F is better to takeoff from the ski-jump carrier than the WS-10H.

I think the reason they are fitting those test J-15 with AL-31F is because they have to use up the surplus stock of the engines they have ordered.

WS10H has high thrust than conventional WS-10A and is designed to be withstand the corrosive effect of the sea.

Yes. AL31F is known to spool up faster but that is not a relevant factor for take-off.

It is not as simple as just the precision of machining. Combustion chamber design and the software to control it all play major roles as well.

If you truly understand how difficult it is to manufacture an aero-engine then you should also understand the importance of precision machining as well.

China has plenty of brilliant software engineers and that should be the least of the problems for them.

On the other hand if you can't produce a wonderful piece of hardware, the best software in the world is totally useless.

 

[Deino]

@ChineseTiger1986, .... don't get me wrong and I admire Your passion to defend Your opinion even if I disagree.
Anyway for me - maybe especially since I can't read Chinese - I need to check from various sources and if one tells this and another one that, I have to consider what could be, what could not or if undecided, what's the most likely option. Therefore all arguments I know - and I mean physical details, images and not simple reports - tell me the J-20 uses a specialised version of the AL-31FN, and surely - I would bet my membership here in this forum - not a version of the WS-10 Taihang.

Let me try to explain ...

Well, go to tell everyone that CCTV has lied, since it is nothing but commie propaganda.

CCTV has done that more than once.
They have also invited the PLA military expert to some TV show.
And the PLA expert clearly stated the J-20 has tested with the indigenous engine, but the J-31 clearly uses the Russian engine.
These information are quite hard to be accessed by the non-Chinese speaking people.

First of all I don't rate this "typical commie propaganda" but I'm sure the Chinese media is not very much different today to other media: there are reporters, who write their reports, they need to collect their information from different sources - open sources mostly ! - and make their conclusion ... Honestly I can't think that the reporter who made this report sent his draft to the PLAAF's public relation department or CAC for checking the facts ... even more IMO it is in fact a certain desire for the PLA and CAC not to tell everything, not to correct all errors a reporter makes ...simply to hide the true facts.

As such - and now to Your video report - just a few notes:
- this is from a time when nearly nothing was known about the J-20 other than it flew. All images were blurry at best and not very conclusive ...
- there are even different ones also at CCTV stating that it now uses a AL-31 version ... so what's right and what is wrong ?
- regarding that PLA expert: what do You expect from a PLA expert ?? to rise the public opinion that the public could be proud of the achievements, but to hide the real secrets ... and IMO the engine of the J-20 is still one ! As such he surely will not correct the reporter and tell him that there was a secret deal with Saturn in Russia similar to the once secret deal for the J-10 for the development of a specialised version to power CHina's most important combat type.

One picture speaks more than million words.
China first got the prototype of the TVC nozzle since 1998.

That may be true ... but so far no TVC nozzle is operational and even more You posted four different nozzles of very different designs and none of them matches the details of the J-20's exhaust ... ergo, this TVC-nozzle is not fitted to the J-20 even more since all details (sans the colour) fit nicely to an AL-31FN.

Yes, You are correct ... "One picture speaks more than million words" and therefor the only conclusion drawn by "images, videos and details" is that the J-20 uses not a WS-10A, B or even G even more not with a TVC-nozzle.

Deino

 

[Deino]

Just a short PS in regard to the reliability of "official" CHinese media ... and not even the PLA itself is completely correct:

PLA Air Force’s J-11B fighter equipped with China-made engines

This report talks about a "J-11B fighter equipped with China-made engines" on show at Changchun... but the image clearly shows a J-11BS and no J-11B was on display on that show even more since the J-11B from the same division (1. Fighter Division / 1. Air Regiment at Anshan AB) are of batch 01 and are using the original AL-31F engines, only the J-11BS are using the WS-10A.

But that's surely nitpicking ...

 

[Martian2]

There are two reasons to believe the J-20 is equipped with a WS-10 variant.

1. According to ChineseTiger1986, CCTV has publicly aired a program claiming indigenous Chinese engines on the J-20.

2. The Russians, who are always quick to let the world know about the slightest Russian contribution to a Chinese project (e.g. being paid to sketch the general shape of the WZ-10 attack helicopter), have been very quiet. Everyone knows one set of engines is the AL-31. However, the Russians have not claimed ownership of the silver-nozzle variant. Hence, it is likely the silver-nozzle engines are Chinese.

In any case, we will find out in a few years. The truth will emerge eventually. China is slow in releasing information, but the details do come out.

 

[Barmaley]

I laughed so hard from this thread .

Not going to answer to all wrong post, but here some:

Russian fighter engines are known for being smoky.

Russian fighters at air shows cannot be used as a representative sample. Having a specially-tuned engine (and possibly special fuel that includes a mixture of alcohol) to eliminate smoke is "cheating" and not representative of the AL-31 engine under normal operation.

In the video screen-shot below (from a Russian airshow), a squadron of Su-27 fighters with AL-31 engines have all left a smoke trail.

This is Su-27 & Mig-29 squadron flying over Red Squad. You can't even identify those two fighters, lol.

Russian Knight and Strizhy are combat squadrons who's doing average training in average days. Some bullshit about "special aircraft" and other imagination sounds not very funny.

World Turbofan Aircraft Engines

19 tons (or 190 KiloNewtons) of wet thrust (which means with afterburner)
19.1 tons (for F-35/JSF) - Pratt & Whitney F135 (in service 2009 - dates are approximate).
Important note: F135 has a high bypass ratio and F-35 cannot supercruise.

18 tons of wet thrust
18 tons (for J-20) - China's WS-15 ("Initial Operational Capability"/IOC 2020. Successful prototype operation in 2005). WS-15 has a low bypass ratio and J-20 can supercruise.

15 tons of wet thrust
15.6 tons (for F-22) - Pratt & Whitney F119 (IOC 2004). F119 has a low bypass ratio and F-22 can supercruise.

15.5 tons - China's WS-10G (Global Security believes it was installed on J-20 prototype in 2011)

14 tons of wet thrust
14.5 tons (for T-50/Pak-Fa) - AL-41F (in service 2010)

13 tons of wet thrust
13.2 tons (for J-10, J-11, and J-15) - China's WS-10A (in service 2009)

13.2 tons (for Russian Su-30) - AL-31FM1 (in service 2007)

12 tons of wet thrust
12.5 tons (for J-10A) - AL-31FN (in service 2002)

8 tons of wet thrust
8.9 tons (for Eurofighter Typhoon) - Eurojet EJ200 (in service 1991)

7 tons of wet thrust
7.5 tons (for French Rafale) - Snecma M88-2 (in service 1996)

This is the most retarded compassion i even seen, you comparing engines of different size by using wrong data as well. Also, using some data for engines which is doesn't even exist


Also, about Chinese engines production:
In 2011 China ordered 150 engines AL-31F for Su-30 \ J-11 and signed contract for 123 AL-31FN for J-10B.

In 2012 China ordered second batch of another 140 AL-31F for Su-30\J-11.

Китай купил российских авиадвигателей на 700 миллионов долларов: Наука и техника: Lenta.ru

So yeah, chinese engines doesn't smoke, because they don't even fly.

 

[Martian2]

I think you missed the point. The Su-27 fighters (which are equipped with AL-31 engines) left an obvious smoke trail.

 

[Barmaley]

I think you missed the point. The Su-27 fighters (which are equipped with AL-31 engines) left an obvious smoke trail.

All aircraft engines are smoking at low trust when they didn't burn fuel.

But seems like it's you who missed a point. Talking crap about Russian engines when you flying on it and claiming that it's chinese made - it's just clown behaviour.

 

[Martian2]

All aircraft engines are smoking at low trust when they didn't burn fuel.

But seems like it's you who missed a point. Talking crap about Russian engines when you flying on it and claiming that it's chinese made - it's just clown behaviour.

The claim about smoky Russian engines is true.

AL-31 (on Su-27). Smoky.

RD-33 (on MiG-29). Smoky.

RD-93 (on China's J-31). Smoky.

Smoky engines are bad for two reasons. An enemy pilot can easily track a smoky aircraft within visual range. Also, incomplete combustion means a loss of maximum thrust and fuel efficiency.

Even a blind man can see that Russian engines are smoky.
----------

China's J-31 currently uses Russian RD-93 engines, which are hopelessly smoky. Everyone is waiting for China's indigenous WS-13 engine, which should be smokeless.

 

[Barmaley]

The claim about smoky Russian engines is true.

Your claim is quite lame, as already tell you that EVERY engine has smoke at low trust regime. (right in the centre)

btw, China doesn't have RD-93.

Here is RD-93 engine at work.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Your claim is quite lame, as already tell you that EVERY engine has smoke at low trust regime. (right in the centre)
btw, China doesn't have RD-93.

Well, Martian2's opinion or mine are not alone. Those were the observation of Western Aviation experts as well.

China doesn't have any RD-93, not even a single one. Hahaha

OK! Mr Smart Alec, in your opinion, what powerplants are the JF-17 and Shenyang J-31 currently using then?

I laughed so hard from this thread .

Not going to answer to all wrong post, but here some:

This is Su-27 & Mig-29 squadron flying over Red Squad. You can't even identify those two fighters, lol.

Russian Knight and Strizhy are combat squadrons who's doing average training in average days. Some bullshit about "special aircraft" and other imagination sounds not very funny.

That is interesting. We can't distinguish the difference between the two.

Some of us must be having a vision problem, how is it some of those planes are smaller in sizes?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Come on, just because it has black nozzle, it doesn't mean it is the AL-31.

The petal pattern is completely different, and the AL-31 is clearly longer.

It looks like the black nozzled WS-10X.