China's Ghost Cities

[StingRoy]

You can accuse me and other chinese members of not approaching the debate in good faith all you want but think a little.

This is all of articles the original poster posted on China. What is the common thread here?

If you don't have the honesty to see who approached the subject in bad faith, I don't know what more I can say to you.

Does it matter who posts what here to discuss? What matters is the content of the posts. If everyone would post positive articles, then we would all be living in an ideal world. Too bad the world isn't such a nice place. There are probably more negative articles published about India on this forum, does it mean that I start to abuse the poster without trying to counter the content of the article?

Anyways, in most cases the content of the article isn't the opinion of the poster, rather the journalist and the media house.... I don't see how you can take it personal on the OP.

EDIT: And btw, I noticed that all the above threads quoted by you and posted by Kevrai, were avoided by the prolific Chinese posters. Most died in their first page itself. Maybe JayAtl was right when he said most Chinese posters on this forum can't take any negative criticism about China.

 

[JayAtl]

Lets look at it this way.

1. The demand for housing will be there and always be there given the population of China, when lower income earners become middle income they will soon move to city areas for modern lifestyle etc. The main Beijing and Shanghai can only handle so much coupled with smaller cities like Guangzhou etc
2. Commerce is controlled by the CPC, if the CPC decides one day to pass huge benefits for companies to locate to certain areas the property and relocation of migrants will move there because of jobs etc
3. The houses in the ghost cities are commanding a price too high for the low - middle income earner, bearing in mind these are inflated prices and not that actual cost of putting up the building. Say if the property market starts worsening and prices come down to a more realistic level the CPC can introduce a scheme for first time buyers who stay in the property to borrow funds from the government bank at low rates to be repaid over a long time period.
4. introduce HSR from the main cities (Beijing, Shanghai) to these small cities which will create a ride to work culture in the Europe.

coupling policies of no 2 & 3 will already start to make these cities livable and usable, besides its a lot faster to build a city without having to worry about human or vehicular traffic flow. Currently the demand is there but the dynamics are not, it probably is a bubble but I doubt its anything that is out of control by the CPC. Thats my thoughts anyway

we call it putting the cart before the horse. Prices have continued to soar, investors have increasingly turned to property speculation fuelling the continued bubble.


Read more: Ghost towns of China: Satellite images show cities lying completely deserted | Mail Online

 

[Anonymous user]

It is a good idea to start trying to move people away from the crowded east coast, but instead of building the whole city at breakneck speed, why not do it in steps. Make a master plan for a city and develop a few residential blocks, encourage few business houses to move into the new planned city and only then move on to the next phase.

You have a point there, but why hasn't been it done in the past 5 years since this city was built?

I believe most of these projects were not fully considered by the main government but left to the local provincial government to decide, also other factors like keep the job rate high etc etc lead to to an unnecessary bloom coupled with corruption etc etc. In short it was probably built with intentions other then being a fully functioning city. But from the satellite and other pics it appears quite a number of planning did go into the project, there seems to be office blocks, shopping centers, residential, government buildings, sewage system, telephone and electrical etc so its not a Surburb but a fully built city waiting to be used and the fact that they are regularly maintaining and policing the place takes place shows its not something built just for pure profits.

No one really knows what the CPC has plans for in the long term but if it was built in a moment of folly which I think might be it can quickly be turned around, in fact I think these ghost cities are a lot more beneficial as compared to many of America's ghost suburbs, in the long run humanity should be living in tight enclaves to preserve resources.

The only reason the prices are high is probably because few people are willing to pay, even if they are not ready to stay there... I know that the property developers also demand upto 40-50% payment upfront and rest on loan. This will keep a majority of the buyers off the market. Can someone explain why is this so, whereas in other countries usually it is 10-20% down payment.

Most buyers in China are cash rich, 40 - 50% ensures that developer deals with the serious purchasers and not short term speculators. Trust me if someone can cough up 40% of the property price means that he is pretty damn serious.

In Singapore the government has implement a 40% down payment for buyers who want to own a second property, speculation literally fizzled. Also the govt bank loaning to middle income citizens for home purchase is actually a Singapore govt scheme, its very successful and ensures housing for 80% of the population.

 

[Anonymous user]

we call it putting the cart before the horse. Prices have continued to soar, investors have increasingly turned to property speculation fuelling the continued bubble.


Read more: Ghost towns of China: Satellite images show cities lying completely deserted | Mail Online

Not interested have fun in

 

[Vinod2070]

郑州新区CBD it is last year old news by china media

ºÓÄÏÖ£ÖÝÐÂÇø±»Ö¸Öйú×î´ó¡°¹í³Ç¡±_ÍøÒ×ÐÂÎÅ



those indians just google china news and jealous of it
all day long

mind your own people

Don't you think one can find such images from China as well (or anywhere in the world for that matter) if one looked hard enough?

 

[StingRoy]

I believe most of these projects were not fully considered by the main government but left to the local provincial government to decide, also other factors like keep the job rate high etc etc lead to to an unnecessary bloom coupled with corruption etc etc. In short it was probably built with intentions other then being a fully functioning city. But from the satellite and other pics it appears quite a number of planning did go into the project, there seems to be office blocks, shopping centers, residential, government buildings, sewage system, telephone and electrical etc so its not a Surburb but a fully built city waiting to be used and the fact that they are regularly maintaining and policing the place takes place shows its not something built just for pure profits.

Yes indeed... these are properly and very well planned cities and the govt. must have something really big in mind before jumping on such a massive project. See, building a block or two is ok if it remains unoccupied, but if you are building such a huge city, it is a massive investment. I have seen a couple of new business districts here in the US which fizzled leaving the property developers bankrupt. Are all the development owned by the CPC or the private property developers?

No one really knows what the CPC has plans for in the long term but if it was built in a moment of folly which I think might be it can quickly be turned around, in fact I think these ghost cities are a lot more beneficial as compared to many of America's ghost suburbs, in the long run humanity should be living in tight enclaves to preserve resources.

This is precisely the question I was trying to come to... and I guess it might be harder to find the actual reason behind building such a city, but then this is what makes me wonder if it was done by the CPC just to keep the GDP growth going as many western analysts have long claimed.

 

[JayAtl]

Nearly half of China's population -- 630 million -- lived in urban areas in 2010, according to official statistics. The number of urban residents has grown by approximately 37 percent over the past ten years.

Experts said the calculation includes 285 million rural migrants who do not have an urban "hukou", or household registration. They have little access to education, social welfare and other rights and benefits that come with the registration.Many migrant workers have to return to the countryside to retire, raise children or treat illnesses as their limited pensions are not enough to cover the high cost of living in cities.

If so - how do you fill these ghost towns when they cost so much right now...

Chen Xiwen, vice director of the Leading Group on Rural Work of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committeesaid the development of infrastructure in Chinese cities has far outpaced the development of benefits for urban dwellers, and it has become a pressing issue for the government.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/7332357.html

 

[Anonymous user]

Yes indeed... these are properly and very well planned cities and the govt. must have something really big in mind before jumping on such a massive project. See, building a block or two is ok if it remains unoccupied, but if you are building such a huge city, it is a massive investment. I have seen a couple of new business districts here in the US which fizzled leaving the property developers bankrupt. Are all the development owned by the CPC or the private property developers?

They are probably owned by the private developers but funded via government banks so a property burst is bad news for all involved, there are loads of news about how the China banks would be insolvent if all the bad loans were accounted but hey this goes for any other major banks and so long as consumer confidence remains things will hold steady and thats the CPC's job.

This is precisely the question I was trying to come to... and I guess it might be harder to find the actual reason behind building such a city, but then this is what makes me wonder if it was done by the CPC just to keep the GDP growth going as many western analysts have long claimed.

No idea mate lol, but the way I see it its actually quite a good move to build these now rather then later. Currently China can afford these because resources are generally considered cheaper now then say in 10 or 20 years time (we will see this when countries like Australia and Canada start restricted resources export) and the labor force is still young. My family does development of projects in certain countries and drives the cost up in developed countries are always material and labor (ever see an Aussie bricklayer drive a Bentley?). So maybe it is actually a good time to build these now rather then say 20 years time when all the developing countries start to hound for resources for their own expanding economies.

Just for perspective.

A barrel of oil does the job of 2 men working flat out for a year yet cost cheaper then a cup of Starbucks if compared by the Litre.

Imagine trying to extract a tonne of steel, shape into rebars, ship it across the ocean, truck it to the construction site etc when Oil hits 200 per barrel.

 

[webber]

Don't you think one can find such images from China as well (or anywhere in the world for that matter) if one looked hard enough?

wow

you guys start the thread and wanna talk about 'construction'

normally we don't care about india

 

[webber]

poor people can't tell the difference between deserted city like Detroit

and new constructed area haven't move in

 

[StingRoy]

They are probably owned by the private developers but funded via government banks so a property burst is bad news for all involved, there are loads of news about how the China banks would be insolvent if all the bad loans were accounted but hey this goes for any other major banks and so long as consumer confidence remains things will hold steady and thats the CPC's job.

I guess you are right, it all depends on the consumer confidence, but the problem I see is that most of the "investment" buyers will never stay there and suddenly there will be a deluge of sellers in the market once people will want to move on with their investments. Most of these investments I am guessing are stagnant at this point. Wonder if such a scenario exists in the cities in the east coast as well.

No idea mate lol, but the way I see it its actually quite a good move to build these now rather then later. Currently China can afford these because resources are generally considered cheaper now then say in 10 or 20 years time (we will see this when countries like Australia and Canada start restricted resources export) and the labor force is still young.

I am not sure if I agree to this. There has to be a demand/supply correlation, just because things are cheaper right now does not mean that I will build a mansion for myself... although my ultimate goal is to retire in a villa on a remote coastal village. If I build something now which I won't be using for next couple of years, I am already starting to lose money that I would have otherwise gained had I invested in something else more productive and more growth oriented.

 

[cross1993]

There are many ghost towns in the world, For example, USA-Detroit, Spain-Yerbys, Australia-Brisbane...
That is overcapacity. Fuss!

 

[Anonymous user]

I am not sure if I agree to this. There has to be a demand/supply correlation, just because things are cheaper right now does not mean that I will build a mansion for myself... although my ultimate goal is to retire in a villa on a remote coastal village. If I build something now which I won't be using for next couple of years, I am already starting to lose money that I would have otherwise gained had I invested in something else more productive and more growth oriented.

If I was a developer or single builder I would 100% agree with ya, but with CPC hrmmm ?!? I think its really kill two birds with one stone decision, give the people something to do which is build something for the next generation. The Singapore government is similar in its way of planning which is to put up tons of expensive of infrastructure in places which resembles a farm of sorts. I have seen Subway stations built fully sitting in swathes of grassland with no building in sight just waiting for the area to be developed (5 - 10 year plan).

This strategy is on a much bigger scale, we'll see if its a gamble in the years to come.

 

[StingRoy]

If I was a developer or single builder I would 100% agree with ya, but with CPC hrmmm ?!? I think its really kill two birds with one stone decision, give the people something to do which is build something for the next generation. The Singapore government is similar in its way of planning which is to put up tons of expensive of infrastructure in places which resembles a farm of sorts. I have seen Subway stations built fully sitting in swathes of grassland with no building in sight just waiting for the area to be developed (5 - 10 year plan).

This strategy is on a much bigger scale, we'll see if its a gamble in the years to come.

I could excuse Singapore for over spending on infrastructure, they have a very high per capita income. Plus they don't have too much space to grow, so it is but obvious that within a short time people will start using it. But for China, I don't think thats the case... money is better spent on a number of other programs.

Has the CPC released any official statements about these so called "ghost towns"?

 

[harsh1488]

郑州新区CBD it is last year old news by china media

ºÓÄÏÖ£ÖÝÐÂÇø±»Ö¸Öйú×î´ó¡°¹í³Ç¡±_ÍøÒ×ÐÂÎÅ



those indians just google china news and jealous of it
all day long

mind your own people

that doesnt look authentic anyways may be the foreign jurnos paid money to the parents to get the pic,a kid as young as him can barely lift the spade