China using Pak to slow India's rise

[Urbanized Greyhound]

1, we have no troops now, the future may be, but it depends on the situation.

2, I think our strategy is clear to protect trade and energy channels in the Indian Ocean.

3, do not simply blame others, look at yourselves, in any case I do not want to engage a blame game, it does not make sense.

regarding your first point, the Indian media clearly states that China has stationed troops , so would like to read up more from Chinese ,Pakistani and other neutral sources before going any further in the debate....

regarding your second point : protection from whom ? For the last 30 years or so ever since the Chinese economy has increasingly grown , oil and other energy supplies have been passing through the Mallaca straits unhindered by any navy be it U.S.N or IN or any other nation.....of recent times we have seen China being more and more assertive in its claims over The south China sea which have led to potential confrontations with Vietnam and also with Japan over its perceived EEZ's.

So why is it that all of a sudden concerns about safety of energy lines have suddenly surfaced leading to building bases all around India (Gwadar , In BD , Sri lanka ).

So as it appears , such concerns about safety of energy lines must mean China is anticipating a future conflict ( perhaps land -based on the Tibetan border ) with India and it fears that India might take such a step . So rather than creating a military presence in IOR , if the Chinese leadership genuinely wants peace it should improve relations with India by border consultations and be receptive to India 's concerns on Kashmir .....

and any military development around India will be viewed as a threat and responded to appropriately by India ....Co-operation with Pakistan on Gwadar for military purposes definitely counts as one ....

 

[BigTree.CN]

^
Care to explain this ?


---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

^
Care to explain this ?

If you read my post properly, you will find that i have promised to explain these after you give convincing explanation to the problems i have asked. So next time before replying to my post, read the post properly. That is what we call politeness.

I have reasons for demanding explanations from your side before offering mine.

First, none of the issues being raised by your side should be your businesses, China does not have to explain everything to India jsut because India is concerned. I am willing to offer some explanations for the sake of this discussion.

Second, all the problems between China and India go back to the India's accommodation of Tibetan secessionists in 1950s. All the conflicts and tensions between China and India for all these years are more or less involved with India's duplicity over Tibet, if you want to have a fruitful discussion, you can't dodge that issue.

 

[IND151]

The EU arms embargo on the China was imposed by the EU member states on the People's Republic of China in response to its suppression of the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.[7]

 

[somebozo]

Robert looks like well fed on a diet of curry and chapati..

What next in this anti-china bad mind fart series??
China using tibet snow as grease in Indian machinery to slow down Indian progress??
indians are pathetic bunch of incompetent leaders who are extrememly professional at finding scape goats and presenting themselves with clean hands..an attitude expressed from top politicians to an averge service man!

 

[Toshiba]

Robert looks like well fed on a diet of curry and chapati..

What next in this anti-china bad mind fart series??
China using tibet snow as grease in Indian machinery to slow down Indian progress??
indians are pathetic bunch of incompetent leaders who are extrememly professional at finding scape goats and presenting themselves with clean hands..an attitude expressed from top politicians to an averge service man!

i have same views regarding to pakistani leaders when they talk abt india using afganistan.
y didnt pakistan was offered the nuke deal by china earlier?
y it took place after indian deal??

 

[muse]

Bozo

What Blackwill is selling has lots of willing buyers in Dehli and it's a good thing - I say it's a good thing because it may allow a consciousness to grow in India and they may be able to educate themselves and figure out where, which side of the issue they want to be.


Plus remember he a former ambassador (read, needs work $$)

 

[huzihaidao12]

regarding your first point, the Indian media clearly states that China has stationed troops , so would like to read up more from Chinese ,Pakistani and other neutral sources before going any further in the debate....

regarding your second point : protection from whom ? For the last 30 years or so ever since the Chinese economy has increasingly grown , oil and other energy supplies have been passing through the Mallaca straits unhindered by any navy be it U.S.N or IN or any other nation.....of recent times we have seen China being more and more assertive in its claims over The south China sea which have led to potential confrontations with Vietnam and also with Japan over its perceived EEZ's.

So why is it that all of a sudden concerns about safety of energy lines have suddenly surfaced leading to building bases all around India (Gwadar , In BD , Sri lanka ).

So as it appears , such concerns about safety of energy lines must mean China is anticipating a future conflict ( perhaps land -based on the Tibetan border ) with India and it fears that India might take such a step . So rather than creating a military presence in IOR , if the Chinese leadership genuinely wants peace it should improve relations with India by border consultations and be receptive to India 's concerns on Kashmir .....

and any military development around India will be viewed as a threat and responded to appropriately by India ....Co-operation with Pakistan on Gwadar for military purposes definitely counts as one ....

India News? I do not see, even the Indian press, the Indians are very disgusted that, so the best international news. China has no troops now, and I repeat and insist on this point.

The future may be unsafe, we have complied with the world system - to accept U.S. protection in the past, but it is not fair enough, we would like some changes, this time there might be some danger, though it is not necessarily all-out conflict, but dangerous is possible. The increasing scale of China's development, more security need for our sustainable development. China and other emerging countries with the Western world system is the collision and running, we certainly want to have a good result for China and the world, but it also need some time, the future uncertain, so our security is reasonable. And, you know, the United States is declining, the United States will not assume responsibility for global security area, we need to protect ourselves.

India is also likely to be a threat to our trade and energy channels in the Indian Ocean,because our issue is not resolved, Indian military officials and the media repeatedly issued provocative statements, again, this is a reasonable worry, this is reality. However, I would like to point out that China's first goal is to develop ourselves, not to any one country as the enemy.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

i have same views regarding to pakistani leaders when they talk abt india using afganistan.
y didnt pakistan was offered the nuke deal by china earlier?
y it took place after indian deal??

good point.
his post was uncalled for and without thinking that Pakistani political leaders have even wrose track record regarding managing their country

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

China is obligated to explain none of the problems you brought up, becaue none of them is India's business. Not to mention some of your accusations are totally baseless, such as the one that says China is stationing troops in G-B. Give us proof before you open your big mouth and spout crap like that.

Though none of those issues should be your businesses, i am willing to offer some explanations considering the fact that India has developed a very bad habit of sticking its nose to other's businesses and can't get rid of it in a near future.

Before i do it, i have some concerns which need to be addressed first by Indian members. In order to make this discussion short and simple, i am gonna just raise one of the many issues that have puzzled me for years.

Why is India accommodating Dalai Lama? And not only that, why does Indian government allow the so-called Tibetan exile government to stay in India and use Indian soil as a base to separate Tibet from China while Indian government officailly recognizes Tibet as an integral part of China?

If any of you can come up with any convincing explanation to those two questions, we can continue this discussion. If you can't, then stop questioning what China is doing. Whatever we have done and are doing, we didn't interfere with your internal affairs.

And those who are planning to throw that political asylum crap at me need to refrain yourself from replying to this post. This is my first post in this forum, i don't want it to be spoiled.

First of all bro , considering its your first post you make several good points ,However let me request you to keep your tone civil in a debate.Do remember , that whatever be our personal thoughts they aint gonna affect the mindset of the CPC thinktank or the Indian MoEA .I believe we can disagree without resorting to abuse .....
thanks in adv....


Now to answer your question ,Considering the Tibetan situation all your points come down to this ...

Does the Indian Govt allow Dalai Lama to carry out any political activity in India ? No

Are the Tibetans on Indian soil permitted to engage in any armed activity overtly or covertly against Chinese administration ? No

Does the Indian Government unambiguously recognize Tibet as an integral part of China ? Yes

So for all effective purposes , neither Chinese territorial integrity nor Chinese control ( administration ) has been affected by the Dalai Lama and his followers living in refuge in India....

Your bone of contention is that he should be expelled , but such an action falls under Indian soveriegnty and its not China 's place to question this. Of course as he is in India , he will be allowed to voice his thoughts and opinions on all subjects like any other citizens .This is because we are a democracy and if we can tolerate someone like Arundhuti Roy to preach Kashmiri seperation openly in New Delhi then everyone is entitled to their freedom of expression.

The bottomline is the GOI has always recognized Chinese control over Tibet and no govt official has ever stated or acted in any way contrary....


Now taking on your more questionable statements....

Though none of those issues should be your businesses, i am willing to offer some explanations considering the fact that India has developed a very bad habit of sticking its nose to other's businesses and can't get rid of it in a near future.

friend, understand this firmly that according to India .....Kashmir is and will always remain an integral part of India.
A single Chinese person setting foot in any part of Kashmir is most certainly India's business - regardless of whether Engineer or soldier .
Any of the so called Economic activity on Kashmir will be viewed as an unfriendly act and reciprocated by the GOI likewise .

Denying a visa to an admiral and above all any attempt to put a question mark on India's integrity -Kashmir's status will be seen as an aggression. The IOR is likewise related to our national security and our economic interests.....any adverse militarizations will be viewed by us as a hostile act.

Interference of any sort will be questioned by us and expect us to take appropriate steps to counter them.

 

[justanobserver]

First, none of the issues being raised by your side should be your businesses

Right...
A terrorist outfit carries out an armed assault in the country's financial capital, then your government tries it's best NOT to ban this outfit??

Originally Posted by Urbanized Greyhound
.and subsequently tacitly blocking attempts by India to ban and internationally isolate Terrorist Group fronts like JUD ......

How the hell is this not our business ?

 

[farzansaeed07]

Pakistan should try to make much better relations with China and visa's to Indian's to visit Pakistan should not be given!

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

India News? I do not see, even the Indian press, the Indians are very disgusted that, so the best international news. China has no troops now, and I repeat and insist on this point.

The future may be unsafe, we have complied with the world system - to accept U.S. protection in the past, but it is not fair enough, we would like some changes, this time there might be some danger, though it is not necessarily all-out conflict, but dangerous is possible. The increasing scale of China's development, more security need for our sustainable development. China and other emerging countries with the Western world system is the collision and running, we certainly want to have a good result for China and the world, but it also need some time, the future uncertain, so our security is reasonable. And, you know, the United States is declining, the United States will not assume responsibility for global security area, we need to protect ourselves.

India is also likely to be a threat to our trade and energy channels in the Indian Ocean,because our issue is not resolved, Indian military officials and the media repeatedly issued provocative statements, again, this is a reasonable worry, this is reality. However, I would like to point out that China's first goal is to develop ourselves, not to any one country as the enemy.

Every single major Indian newspaper has reported it and the news was first reported I believe by a New York news report .

I can provide several Indian links if you require, and please refrain from name-calling the Indian press .....papers like TribuneIndia, Deccan Herald etc have far more credibility than your state controlled people's daily ,which screens censored news approved by the GoC ...
The press freedom in India is an aknowledged fact...

Now regarding your last para...
So you say that the Chinese Govt wants peaceful development and yet is building up forces to counter India in the IOR because they perceive us as a threat. But is it the right way to go about it ?

On one hand you are unilaterally making military arrangements ....yet on the other hand you say....

However, I would like to point out that China's first goal is to develop ourselves, not to any one country as the enemy

why not concentrate on building good relations with India first which will not require you to build up bases , and extensive naval warfare capability in the IOR .....

could I conclude by this that developing good bases around India is more important than developing good relations ?

If that be the case then don't expect the Indian Navy or the GOI to be mere spectators . Based on their threat perceptions , expect them to arm rapidly and establish links with Vietnam and Japan....

and judging by the Chinese reaction to this ....they dont seem to be taking it too well.....

China wary of India's Look-East diplomacy - Yahoo! India News

due regards,

 

[huzihaidao12]

I have already said that do not play the blame game, it does not make sense, I just tell you, a stronghold of the Tibetan Serf in India, it is the headquarters of the Tibetan independence movement. India has some restraint, only that did not make things worse, not mean that India does not hurt the Chinese. I think that this fact is clear enough, I'm not interested to continue the blame game, there will be no change in the attitude of both sides.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Every single major Indian newspaper has reported it and the news was first reported I believe by a New York news report .

I can provide several Indian links if you require, and please refrain from name-calling the Indian press .....papers like TribuneIndia, Deccan Herald etc have far more credibility than your state controlled people's daily ,which screens censored news approved by the GoC ...
The press freedom in India is an aknowledged fact...

Now regarding your last para...
So you say that the Chinese Govt wants peaceful development and yet is building up forces to counter India in the IOR because they perceive us as a threat. But is it the right way to go about it ?

On one hand you are unilaterally making military arrangements ....yet on the other hand you say....



why not concentrate on building good relations with India first which will not require you to build up bases , and extensive naval warfare capability in the IOR .....

could I conclude by this that developing good bases around India is more important than developing good relations ?

If that be the case then don't expect the Indian Navy or the GOI to be mere spectators . Based on their threat perceptions , expect them to arm rapidly and establish links with Vietnam and Japan....

and judging by the Chinese reaction to this ....they dont seem to be taking it too well.....

China wary of India's Look-East diplomacy - Yahoo! India News

due regards,

If the Indian press that, you give access, and then say others.

I can only say that we need to protect our waterways, the object is not India in 20 years, do you think that who is the controller of the Indian Ocean now , India?

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

If the Indian press that, you give access, and then say others.

I can only say that we need to protect our waterways, the object is not India in 20 years, do you think that who is the controller of the Indian Ocean now , India?

The govt in India has no control over the press, nothing even remotely close to Chinese Govt control over its press.

and you need to protect your waterways against whom ? The U.S ? with one base at Diego Garcia ??

or the Somali pirates which have of late been attacking merchant ships of the African coast .
I dont believe you need ports in BD , Sri lanka and Pakistan for that ... with your arsenal of surface ships and submarines , the U.S seventh fleet and certainly a few somali pirates can be taken care of from Bases in the mainland....