China to supply FC-1/JF-17 fighters to Azerbaijan

[Icarus]

JF17 Thunder is the name to given to FC1 that will be sold to Pakistan. I believe the first are costing $650m for which china has granted soft loans.

Pakistan will assemble/ manufacture these from kits supplied by China.

These kits include Russian engine chinease radar & chinease weapons like PL9 & SD10 MISSLES.

WITH REGARDS to export my understanding is that with FC1 being a chinease war plane they can export this to whom ever.

I do not believe there is any 50/50 partnership.

UNLESS somebody can prove/ provide the link..

Its JF(Joint Fighter)-17, the name says it loud and clear.
The first few models were to be made by China the rest will be constructed by PAF in the Kamra Complex.
And i don't know why you have a problem with it being a joint venture, it was started in 1990s cuz Pakistan was facing arms embargoes from most arms providing countries, Pakistan and China agreed that a cost effective multi-role aircraft should be produced by the two countries.
According to my knowledge, JF-17 is a spin off of the Super-7 project of China, for it's development, Pakistan invested more than $500 million.

 

[Guest]

may i ask some questions,plz

1) is it confirmed that it is a 50-50 partnership.
2) it's a 50-50 partnership of what? the ownership or the usufruct.
3) the ownership (or the usufruct) of what? JF-17(without chinese radar and avionics etc) or FC1.

 

[PAFAce]

Hi PAFAce.. I have to disagree on the part that Pakistan will receive 50% of profit. For export, China is doing all the manufacturing process of the aircraft.. all its airframe, fuselage , fitting of engine etc etc with entire armament... isn't it ? There is also no need of supplying any component from Pakistan coz there already exists all facility with skilled labour and raw material. Then how you sums up with half profit ??.. So it would be practical to say that Pakistan will get a certain amount of revenue like UAE's F-16 Block 60 contract.

Okay, here is what it is. China will produce the entire aircraft, and will sell it all on its own. The money they get from the sales, they will subtract every penny that went into producing the aircraft, i.e., cost. Now, Revenue - Cost = Profit. That will be split 50-50 because Pakistan paid 50% for the development in the program, and is a 50% stakeholder in all aspects.

Hence, China will still get the majority of the Revenue (i.e., 50% of profit + cost), but Pakistan will get what it put into the program (50% profit - some miscellaneous amount lost in kickbacks, which are routine in Pakistani defence deals). If that were not the case, Pakistan would not be considered a 50-50 partner, and JF-17 wouldn't be a joint venture. I really can't make it more plain than this. It's simple math.

 

[Guest]

Okay, here is what it is. China will produce the entire aircraft, and will sell it all on its own. The money they get from the sales, they will subtract every penny that went into producing the aircraft, i.e., cost. Now, Revenue - Cost = Profit. That will be split 50-50 because Pakistan paid 50% for the development in the program, and is a 50% stakeholder in all aspects.

Hence, China will still get the majority of the Revenue (i.e., 50% of profit + cost), but Pakistan will get what it put into the program (50% profit - some miscellaneous amount lost in kickbacks, which are routine in Pakistani defence deals). If that were not the case, Pakistan would not be considered a 50-50 partner, and JF-17 wouldn't be a joint venture. I really can't make it more plain than this. It's simple math.

so, what about my question 3? if the 50-50 partnership is about the ownership of JF-17 and Azerbaijan is going to buy FC1, then PAC won't get 50% of the profit, bcoz a FC1 = chinese radar,avionics + russian engine + the remaining (the 50-50 partnership), will they?

 

[TaimiKhan]

so, what about my question 3? if the 50-50 partnership is about the ownership of JF-17 and Azerbaijan is going to buy FC1, then PAC won't get 50% of the profit, bcoz a FC1 = chinese radar,avionics + russian engine + the remaining (the 50-50 partnership), will they?

FC-1 & JF-17 are the same aircraft. PAF gave it JF-17name while China gave it FC-1. Just like we got Chinese J-7 and renamed it F-7, then we had J-6 as F-6, Q-5 renamed as A-5 in our airforce. We called K-8 Karakoram, while China has Hongdu JL-8 or Nanchang JL-8 designated for it.

Main issue is, PAF provided research money for it and was the main backer of this fighter aircraft program and it knew it has an export potential, so for future earnings of any sale would also be given to PAF.

 

[Sinnerman108]

FC-1 & JF-17 are the same aircraft. PAF gave it JF-17name while China gave it FC-1. Just like we got Chinese J-7 and renamed it F-7, then we had J-6 as F-6, Q-5 renamed as A-5 in our airforce. We called K-8 Karakoram, while China has Hongdu JL-8 or Nanchang JL-8 designated for it.

Main issue is, PAF provided research money for it and was the main backer of this fighter aircraft program and it knew it has an export potential, so for future earnings of any sale would also be given to PAF.

Ok some facts of life here.
FC1 != JF17 , they are two different business proposals.
The buyer of the aircraft will select how much FC1 or JF17 they want.

I will give you and example.
Both Pak and China developed the plane for 500 M USD
which means both the countries can now use the technology to manufacture the plane. Fair enough.

Now scenario comes that some one wants to buy this plane.

The Chinese will fit every thing Chinese to their plane. If they dont have it ready made they will learn and make it.
Pakistan can not fit every thing Pakistani because Pakistan doesn't have the ability to make it, and refused an offer by China to help learn make them. ( for what ever reason)

Thus if a plane is purchased from Pakistan, the plane fuselage may be made here, Engines is imported, avionics are imported, etc.
The only profit Pakistan will actually end up making, is that of the production that it does it self.

Only very little money, as far as IPR ( the development right money) constitutes to the price of the plane.

Got it ?

Shameful that even when the technology is there, We do not have the industry to make money from it !
and we refuse offers from Chinese friends to learn set up industry.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

J17 & FC 1 are just name designations , nothing more - the plane is same, intially the engines are russian made but soon they will be upgraded to Chinese improved engines

And we already know Stealth variations and 2 pilot variations are in progress

Just an example

If China sells , 50 air planes , to Azarbijan or who ever @ 12 million dollars


50 x 12 Millions = $600 Million dollars Pakistan's Share

50% (Joint fighter share fees) = $300 Million dollars

Meaning ~ Pakistan has recovered cost for "30" of its JF17 Thunder planes by this sales - meaing they cost was 0$ for those 30 of its own , and perhaps those 300 millions saved can be spent on getting
Submarines

Realistically -

Pakistan should be selling the JF17 Thunder to Saudia
Sudan and Libya - Libya has a huge stash of cash and before any european delegate makes sale Pakistan shoudl sell Libya 50 JF17 Thunders ...

Really the potential is there for JF17 Thunder to be sold to

a) Iran Gets 60 planes $720 Million

b) Libya Gets 60 planes $720 Million

c) Saudi Arabia can get 60 planes , and joint production of new generation AWACS
Saudi Cash, Pakistani Engineers + Chinese Phds researchers $720 Million

d) Indonesian Airforce , 15 planes - $180 Million

e) Srilankan Airforce , 15 planes - $180 Million

f) Turkey (10 JF 17 Thunders , in exchange for frigates)

Plus Pakistan & China could develop Missiles custom to go along with the JF17 thunder , so you make extar $800 million from ammunition and missiles technology that goes along with the planes


Pakistan has the technology now , and just needs to , get Submarine and Frigate and Destroyers

Iran has a Destroyers program , and Submarines , perhaps an exchange program would help Pakistan Navy and in return Iran can get FC1 from China

 

[Adios Amigo]

Just an example

If China sells , 50 air planes , to Azarbijan or who ever @ 12 million dollars


50 x 12 Millions = $600 Million dollars Pakistan's Share

50% (Joint fighter share fees) = $300 Million dollars

Meaning ~ Pakistan has recovered cost for "30" of its JF17 Thunder planes by this sales - meaing they cost was 0$ for those 30 of its own , and perhaps those 300 millions saved can be spent on getting
Submarines

brother your logic is too complexplz dont make us scratch our heads.

Realistically -

Pakistan should be selling the JF17 Thunder or Mirages to Saudia
Sudan and Libya - Libya has a huge stash of cash and before any european delegate makes sale Pakistan shoudl sell Libya 50 JF17 Thunders ...

ya but we have better potental customers living on mars then saudia or libya we should be selling to them insted
wake up manwats wrong with you guys

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

brother your logic is too complexplz dont make us scratch our heads.


ya but we have better potental customers living on mars then saudia or libya we should be selling to them insted
wake up manwats wrong with you guys

Libya & Saudia are both Oil rich nations

In case you did not know, Libya , recently after its relation with west normalized they , took all their cash in forigner banks BILLIION and billions of dollars , and they are not in process of giving our trillion dollar contracts to other nations , to come build and enhance oil industry in that nation

So likely - they are the most obvious customer to sell the JF17 Thunder to , break in the market early -

Saudia have Sentry AWACS, perhaps there could be a partnership to get that AWAC from Saudis to reverse engineer the AWAC in a joint

Saudi + CHINA + Pakistan effort - and get the AWACS figured out
Saudi Cash , and JF17 R&D team's next project

Also Iran has a need for planes , and China should sell it those , since NO one will complain if China sells it to them indirectly lol

Its just business -


On easter, Asian side , Malasia & Indonesia are potential customers for both Alhalid tanks and JF17 Thunder , what we really need is some DEMO of JF17 thunder in a war
etc so ppl can be persuaded just throw them in Afghanistan get some demos done , etc enhance reputations

 

[ironman]

Okay, here is what it is. China will produce the entire aircraft, and will sell it all on its own. The money they get from the sales, they will subtract every penny that went into producing the aircraft, i.e., cost. Now, Revenue - Cost = Profit. That will be split 50-50 because Pakistan paid 50% for the development in the program, and is a 50% stakeholder in all aspects.

Hence, China will still get the majority of the Revenue (i.e., 50% of profit + cost), but Pakistan will get what it put into the program (50% profit - some miscellaneous amount lost in kickbacks, which are routine in Pakistani defence deals). If that were not the case, Pakistan would not be considered a 50-50 partner, and JF-17 wouldn't be a joint venture. I really can't make it more plain than this. It's simple math.

Hi.. Pakistan has given a 50% 'working capital' for the 'designing' of JF-17 not for the construction of an entire industry.. For a broader meaning it is like providing an existing industry certain amount of initial development cost to design a different line of product. You can easily get this product earlier because there already exists a R&D team, infrastructure, skilled labour and raw material etc... These existing non financial assets in China costs a hell lot of amount and here in this case not funded by Pakistan.

So in the calculation of profit sharing, these non financial items should be valued according to their put forth to the project and because of immense contribution, the majority of profit would go to China. Its a simple commerce...

 

[Sinnerman108]

Your logic in most of your posts is very weird, so are your posts.

You try to show you are a smart arse, but you end up looking just an arse.

That was cold ... don't you think ?

Please comment on the subject not people.

 

[unicorn148]

J17 & FC 1 are just name designations , nothing more - the plane is same, intially the engines are russian made but soon they will be upgraded to Chinese improved engines

And we already know Stealth variations and 2 pilot variations are in progress

Just an example

If China sells , 50 air planes , to Azarbijan or who ever @ 12 million dollars


50 x 12 Millions = $600 Million dollars Pakistan's Share

50% (Joint fighter share fees) = $300 Million dollars

Meaning ~ Pakistan has recovered cost for "30" of its JF17 Thunder planes by this sales - meaing they cost was 0$ for those 30 of its own , and perhaps those 300 millions saved can be spent on getting
Submarines

Realistically -

Pakistan should be selling the JF17 Thunder to Saudia
Sudan and Libya - Libya has a huge stash of cash and before any european delegate makes sale Pakistan shoudl sell Libya 50 JF17 Thunders ...

Really the potential is there for JF17 Thunder to be sold to

a) Iran Gets 60 planes $720 Million

b) Libya Gets 60 planes $720 Million

c) Saudi Arabia can get 60 planes , and joint production of new generation AWACS
Saudi Cash, Pakistani Engineers + Chinese Phds researchers $720 Million

d) Indonesian Airforce , 15 planes - $180 Million

e) Srilankan Airforce , 15 planes - $180 Million

first of all you should know that pakisthan has no space to make planes for export first it should make for PAF then it may plan for export if the order is 250 it will take 10 years so don't dream too much

 

[TaimiKhan]

That was cold ... don't you think ?

Please comment on the subject not people.

Then in your posts don't use the word got it? trying to show that you or your analysis is superior & others are ************, which is not the case. This is the 3rd or 4th post i am seeing that you try to show something by using this got it ? words as if you are more intellectual and others are goofs over here.

 

[Kompromat]

first of all you should know that pakisthan has no space to make planes for export first it should make for PAF then it may plan for export if the order is 250 it will take 10 years so don't dream too much

Yeah But it takes 12 moths only to Build a new manufacturing facility which can produce as many as Required

we have stopped dreaming because ours is now a reality , it your turn to dream about Tejas

 

[Guest]

FC-1 & JF-17 are the same aircraft. PAF gave it JF-17name while China gave it FC-1. Just like we got Chinese J-7 and renamed it F-7, then we had J-6 as F-6, Q-5 renamed as A-5 in our airforce. We called K-8 Karakoram, while China has Hongdu JL-8 or Nanchang JL-8 designated for it.

Main issue is, PAF provided research money for it and was the main backer of this fighter aircraft program and it knew it has an export potential, so for future earnings of any sale would also be given to PAF.

im not so sure about that, coz one PAF officer (can't remember whom) once said that JF-17 and FC-1 are two different planes, just like chinese J7 and russian Mig-21. as up until now, not a single FC-1 is being constructed, so how can we distinguish the two.
secondly, may be chinese products are cheap, but not that cheap. 1 billion to develop a new plane is almost impossible, see how much india has spent on LCA. so i'm much more convinced that the 50-50 is only about some components of the plane not the whole plane. therefore,
FC1= the some components + PLAAF requested components;
JF-17 = the some components + PAF requested components.

PS: except the quoting of the PAF officer, everything else is no more then a big guess, fell free to correct it.