China to supply FC-1/JF-17 fighters to Azerbaijan

[ironman]

I hope you can implement the same analogy to JF-17, but with an exception that the license is "Co-Owned" by Pakistan and China (just like Sony-Erricson, Fujitsu-Siemens etc).

Regards,
Sapper

Hi.. Why didn't you look at my previous post ??... Usually in a partnership business, profit margin is calculated on the basis of capital contribution. In simple terms you have to contribute equally to get half profit. Here in this case Pakistan hasn't contributed a proper capital to the development. I will try to explain...

Main factors of Production

Factors of production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* Capital – This has many meanings, including the financial capital raised to operate and expand a business. In much economics, however, "capital" (without any qualification) means goods that can help produce other goods in the future, the result of investment. It refers to machines, roads, factories, schools, infrastructure, and office buildings which humans have produced in order to produce goods and services.

* Fixed capital – This includes machinery, factories, equipment, new technology, factories, buildings, computers, and other goods that are designed to increase the productive potential of the economy for future years. Nowadays, many consider computer software to be a form of fixed capital and it is counted as such in the National Income and Product Accounts of the United States and other countries. This type of capital does not change due to the production of the good.

* Working capital – This includes the stocks of finished and semi-finished goods that will be economically consumed in the near future or will be made into a finished consumer good in the near future. These are often called inventories. The phrase "working capital" has also been used to refer to liquid assets (money) needed for immediate expenses linked to the production process (to pay salaries, invoices, taxes, interests...) Either way, the amount or nature of this type of capital usually changed during the production process.

* Financial capital - This is simply the amount of money the initiator of the business has invested in it. "Financial capital" often refers to his or her net worth tied up in the business (assets minus liabilities) but the phrase often includes money borrowed from others.

Apart from that, being an exclusive industry the most important Intellectual capital.

Intellectual capital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term Intellectual capital collectively refers to all resources that determine the value and the competitiveness of an enterprise. As such, it includes as subsets the attributes that concur to building all financial statements as well as the balance sheet

Mainly made of elements (such as the quality of employees or the reputation of a brand among consumers) for which there is no consensual model for monetary expression.A more precise name for IC would therefore be "non-financial assets"

The best we can say is Pakistan's share is only limited to financial capital(that too a 50%) and the rest which values several times more is the part of China. And the 'intellectual capital' the most valuable in these kind of industries received via years of hard work and billions of spending, there is no substitute for Pakistan.

I'm not speculating and BS' ing about Pakistan's achievement in a negative way. They did a good job.. signed a fair deal with China with a moderate profit margin and hopes to recover the expenses by Foreign sales. Read this with "Jf-17s potential market" and "Pakistan doing the marketing".

Once again Reminding you that This is Pakistan's first step... only the first step.

 

[ironman]

The best part of the JF-17/FC-1 saga is watching the anti-Pakistan haters squish and squirm to try and downplay Pakistan's contribution.

As taimi and Mastan have said, whatever makes these guys sleep better at night.

Just knowing that this is burning them up is a delight in itself!

You meant China ?

 

[Sinnerman108]

The best part of the JF-17/FC-1 saga is watching the anti-Pakistan haters squish and squirm to try and downplay Pakistan's contribution.

As taimi and Mastan have said, whatever makes these guys sleep better at night.

Just knowing that this is burning them up is a delight in itself!

Kind Sir,
It is not about hating its about business and opportunity.
The examples given by Sapper / ironman are almost perfect.

The only thing I personally am very upset about is that Pakistan could have made a LOT more money, but we missed the chance.

It is even more sad because it is hard to see another such chance coming soon, AND we lost the chance not because we are not capable of bagging that extra money but because of short sighted decisions.

 

[Developereo]

Main factors of Production

If you had spent time understanding the development of JF-17 instead of cutting and pasting from a business textbook, you would understand that the single most important element in a hgh-tech business venture is knowledge.

Everything else, including manufacturing facilities, are chump change compared to first-hand, in-depth technical knowledge. China has a lot of experience with a lot of technologies, but they do not have first hand experience with many Western technologies.

That is where PAF comes in. If you can put your myopic anti-Pakistan bigotry aside for a second and think objectively, you will understand that there is no substitute for actual first-hand experience with superior technology. PAf's contribution was far more than just money -- do you think China lacks money that they have to come to Pakistan for money? The most important contribution by Pakistan was, in fact, the intellectual capital.

You meant China ?

Sure, if you like. sweet dreams...

we lost the chance not because we are not capable of bagging that extra money but because of short sighted decisions.

I don't doubt that politics played a part and some parts of the deal could have been negotiated better in Pakistan's favor. But it's a start.

I agree with you that we should indigenize the technology as much as possible and become more self-sufficient.

 

[Sinnerman108]

If you had spent time understanding the development of JF-17 instead of cutting and pasting from a business textbook, you would understand that the single most important element in a hgh-tech business venture is knowledge.

Everything else, including manufacturing facilities, are chump change compared to first-hand, in-depth technical knowledge. China has a lot of experience with a lot of technologies, but they do not have first hand experience with many Western technologies.

That is where PAF comes in. If you can put your myopic anti-Pakistan bigotry aside for a second and think objectively, you will understand that there is no substitute for actual first-hand experience with superior technology. PAf's contribution was far more than just money -- do you think China lacks money that they have to come to Pakistan for money? The most important contribution by Pakistan was, in fact, the intellectual capital.



Sure, if you like. sweet dreams...



I don't doubt that politics played a part and some parts of the deal could have been negotiated better in Pakistan's favor. But it's a start.

I agree with you that we should indigenize the technology as much as possible and become more self-sufficient.

I can agree to what you are saying.
I can also hope for more indigenous production.

The more we produce our selves = more Business and jobs in PAKISTAN
which means that the money stays in OUR own country.

The more parts / technology we have to import ( engine, radar, avionics, weapons, alloys) means our money goes of the country and people in other countries get jobs.

Unfortunately later is the situation right now.

The case of Chinese is different, they are putting every thing which they produce them selves ( WS engine is coming, radar is on the way etc) which means they are making more money.

Lets hope that next time around, we are more ready and more charged up.

 

[Developereo]

The more we produce our selves = more Business and jobs in PAKISTAN
which means that the money stays in OUR own country.

The more parts / technology we have to import ( engine, radar, avionics, weapons, alloys) means our money goes of the country and people in other countries get jobs.

I am less concerned about the money than about national security.
China is a friend today but who know what happens in the future?

Also, a high-tech defense base will have ripple effects in stimulating high-tech development in other parts of the economy. That's where the real money will come in.

 

[Sinnerman108]

I am less concerned about the money than about national security.
China is a friend today but who know what happens in the future?

Also, a high-tech defense base will have ripple effects in stimulating high-tech development in other parts of the economy. That's where the real money will come in.

YES !

I can remember some experiences within and outside the defense industry, but it is hurtful !
I can tell you first hand, I had to run around for months trying to find ceramic bearings and couldn't get any
No help on alloys
no decent welding
and no CnC machinesss

I know there is a VERY cool CnC machine @ Kamra, will PAF let any one use it ?

 

[mjnaushad]

Well JF 17 was pakistan's plan...right..?then why not these ppl buy from us...?

Dont worry. We'll get the same amount in either case.

 

[mjnaushad]

* Capital – This has many meanings, including the financial capital raised to operate and expand a business. In much economics, however, "capital" (without any qualification) means goods that can help produce other goods in the future, the result of investment. It refers to machines, roads, factories, schools, infrastructure, and office buildings which humans have produced in order to produce goods and services.

* Fixed capital – This includes machinery, factories, equipment, new technology, factories, buildings, computers, and other goods that are designed to increase the productive potential of the economy for future years. Nowadays, many consider computer software to be a form of fixed capital and it is counted as such in the National Income and Product Accounts of the United States and other countries. This type of capital does not change due to the production of the good.

* Working capital – This includes the stocks of finished and semi-finished goods that will be economically consumed in the near future or will be made into a finished consumer good in the near future. These are often called inventories. The phrase "working capital" has also been used to refer to liquid assets (money) needed for immediate expenses linked to the production process (to pay salaries, invoices, taxes, interests...) Either way, the amount or nature of this type of capital usually changed during the production process.

* Financial capital - This is simply the amount of money the initiator of the business has invested in it. "Financial capital" often refers to his or her net worth tied up in the business (assets minus liabilities) but the phrase often includes money borrowed from others.

Ironman uncle.Stop pasting your homework here. Put it in your notebook and you might get something.

 

[ironman]

If you had spent time understanding the development of JF-17 instead of cutting and pasting from a business textbook, you would understand that the single most important element in a hgh-tech business venture is knowledge.

Everything else, including manufacturing facilities, are chump change compared to first-hand, in-depth technical knowledge. China has a lot of experience with a lot of technologies, but they do not have first hand experience with many Western technologies.

That is where PAF comes in. If you can put your myopic anti-Pakistan bigotry aside for a second and think objectively, you will understand that there is no substitute for actual first-hand experience with superior technology. PAf's contribution was far more than just money -- do you think China lacks money that they have to come to Pakistan for money? The most important contribution by Pakistan was, in fact, the intellectual capital.

Talk with some sense. Are you saying that Pakistan has provided some vital technical details of F-16 to China. This is my first time knowledge, a car driver can help a manufacturer with technical details .wow.... may be, at best, PAF allowed CAC to inspect these aircrafts ... Is that a Intellectual capital ?? wrong selection of word...

Ironman uncle.Stop pasting your homework here. Put it in your notebook and you might get something.

I have done enough home work betta... Its your time...

 

[Developereo]

Talk with some sense. Are you saying that Pakistan has provided some vital technical details of F-16 to China.

Only within the allowable parameters of the US contract.

This is my first time knowledge, a car driver can help a manufacturer with technical details .wow

Actually Pakistan maintains our fleet and a mechanic can tell a lot about how things work. Also PAF has actual flight experience with various technologies and knows their behavioural limits under stress. If you think a fleet of top notch pilots and mechanics are like car drivers, you are probably confusing them with the IAF given their flying coffins and planes falling from the sky all the time.

Two facts that you need to keep in mind. China is not short of cash so they didn't come to Pakistan to get money. It was intellectual property that they wanted from the PAF, as much as you may not like to admit it.

Contrast that with the Russian/Indian joint ventures. Russia has publicly admitted that their project were all halted purely for lack of funds. No other reason. Then India came along with the cash and the Russian projects resumed. The Indians have nothing to contribute to the alliance, except money. Do you really think the Russians don't know how to make inertial navigation systems or composite materials? The Russians were able to compete with the Americans before the Indians ever came along. They can do so just fine by themselves. The only reason they work with India is for the money.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Only within the allowable parameters of the US contract.

Actually Pakistan maintains our fleet and a mechanic can tell a lot about how things work. Also PAF has actual flight experience with various technologies and knows their behavioural limits under stress. If you think a fleet of top notch pilots and mechanics are like car drivers, you are probably confusing them with the IAF given their flying coffins and planes falling from the sky all the time.

Two facts that you need to keep in mind. China is not short of cash so they didn't come to Pakistan to get money. It was intellectual property that they wanted from the PAF, as much as you may not like to admit it.

Contrast that with the Russian/Indian joint ventures. Russia has publicly admitted that their project were all halted purely for lack of funds. No other reason. Then India came along with the cash and the Russian projects resumed. The Indians have nothing to contribute to the alliance, except money. Do you really think the Russians don't know how to make inertial navigation systems or composite materials? The Russians were able to compete with the Americans before the Indians ever came along. They can do so just fine by themselves. The only reason they work with India is for the money.

Ironman, sorry to be saying but above is the perfect of the answers that one can give to your sarcasm.

Just to add further, the one whom you called a driver was the one who gave the Chinese HUD technology and the programing code for it. Another example, this driver also started using Hunter-Killer capability in its Al Khalid tanks, which has now been incorporated in the latest 3rd generation Chinese Tank Type-99, which was not there before in the other types of Chinese tanks.

Sometimes the driver can also innovate things and provide advice which helps a lot in improving the final product.

And just for your own information do check out the design of FC-1/JF-17 when it was started in the 80s-90s and then see the design which came out after the driver joined into the project with full steam. This may give you some idea of what PAF may have provided to the Chinese in the design phase, otherwise Chinese would have produced the FC-1/JF-17 of current design by themselves way before the driver joined the project.

Rest upto you whatever you wish to infer out of it or keep thinking, problem is that I can't disclose further due to some reasons the input of this driver in this project.

And Developereo great job buddy, one of the best replies seen to any of the Indian sarcasm.

 

[Sapper]

Dear, Pakistan has produced some F16 spares domestically, though it is not widely known knowledge, and i would not go into details as it comes directly from some of my close family members.

In 90's when we were denied spares and replacement parts for F16s, few organizations which currently come under NESCOM umbrella were tasked with producing hardware components replacements (both electrical & mechanical) to keep F16 fleet fly worthy. Few F16s were cannibalized before that, but as soon as domestic parts were available, further cannibalization was not needed, and since then PAF maintained its 32 F16s using some domestic hardware components as well. The fact that PAF haven't had to cannibalize its fleet for past ~10 years is a proof of that in itself, more than that i can not and will not say.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[ironman]

Ironman, sorry to be saying but above is the perfect of the answers that one can give to your sarcasm.

Is that your conclusion ?.. whatever...Just look who started first.. I was just declining PAFace's claim and this guy intervened with some sarcastic comments..

Just to add further, the one whom you called a driver was the one who gave the Chinese HUD technology and the programing code for it.

What are you smoking man?? when the last time GEC-Marconi became Pakistan origin...or u just meant some software??

Another example, this driver also started using Hunter-Killer capability in its Al Khalid tanks, which has now been incorporated in the latest 3rd generation Chinese Tank Type-99, which was not there before in the other types of Chinese tanks.

Can I ask you a question..what you meant by hunter killer capabe? I think you need to read more about commander, gunner and their communication... FYI Chinese type 98 . A "true" hunter killer according to you... don't use google, you can't find it attached with 'hunter-killer'


I'm not interested in continuing this anymore . See ya..

 

[TaimiKhan]

Is that your conclusion ?.. whatever...Just look who started first.. I was just declining PAFace's claim and this guy intervened with some sarcastic comments..

What are you smoking man?? when the last time GEC-Marconi became Pakistan origin...or u just meant some software??

Can I ask you a question..what you meant by hunter killer capabe? I think you need to read more about commander, gunner and their communication... FYI Chinese type 98 . A "true" hunter killer according to you... don't use google, you can't find it attached with 'hunter-killer'

I'm not interested in continuing this anymore . See ya..

It would be better that before you open your mouth think before doing it.

By the way before trying to be over smart, check the picture of the link you gave, do read what it says above. And read the history of Type-98/99 development and when was Al Khalid developed.