China to supply FC-1/JF-17 fighters to Azerbaijan

[Sinnerman108]

Talk with some sense. Are you saying that Pakistan has provided some vital technical details of F-16 to China. This is my first time knowledge, a car driver can help a manufacturer with technical details .wow.... may be, at best, PAF allowed CAC to inspect these aircrafts ... Is that a Intellectual capital ?? wrong selection of word...

I have done enough home work betta... Its your time...

Well !
Being an engineer I know that the end user feed back is continuously gathered and incorporated in design.

My favorite example in this regards
Please look at the Mig21 and it's wing design closely.
It's best feature ( by engineering) was it's intake and the simple yet very fast wing design.
The wing design's draw backs were evident as well.
1. Now look at F-7 ( Chineese Mig 21)
No one has worked more & closely on F-7 outside of china than PAF.
2. Now, take a look at F-7PG's wing design.
You will see the feed back and design cycle.
3. Look at JF-17's 1st prototype wing design
4. Look at JF-17's final wing design.

U will see that the same design changes in step 1 &2 are placed in 3 & 4 project. That is just one example.

Have u seen the nose design of F-16 Black A/B and the nose design of J-10 ?

 

[ironman]

It would be better that before you open your mouth think before doing it.

By the way before trying to be over smart, check the picture of the link you gave, do read what it says above. And read the history of Type-98/99 development and when was Al Khalid developed.

What about proving your claims instead of threatening??

Claim No 1. PAF gave China HUD technology. ( I'm repeating agian.. Is that a software modification based on user requirement? ).

FYI. China has revealed a F-7M model in 1979, also included GEC-Marconi avionics and head up display. link

Claim No 2. PAF helped in development of Hunter Killer capable Al-Khalid tank.

Sorry to say that, are you sure ? PAF ?...Already provided a picture of type-98 mbt from 1999 Beijing parade with all the features of 'true' 'hunter-killer'. By the way that indeed Type-98.. here a better quality picture..http://www.madogre.com/images/China_Military/China_tanks2.JPGand the original source I have picked also validates it..http://www.army-technology.com/projects/type99chinese-main/

I'm not going to read type-98 and 99 history but requesting you to read the entire tank history...long way passed by the development stages of communication between commander and gunner...the derivation of term "hunter killer"..... And you still sticking with Chinese are not aware of this who made first tank in 60's, sorry friend I can't help.

 

[ironman]

Well !
Being an engineer I know that the end user feed back is continuously gathered and incorporated in design.

My favorite example in this regards
Please look at the Mig21 and it's wing design closely.
It's best feature ( by engineering) was it's intake and the simple yet very fast wing design.
The wing design's draw backs were evident as well.
1. Now look at F-7 ( Chineese Mig 21)
No one has worked more & closely on F-7 outside of china than PAF.
2. Now, take a look at F-7PG's wing design.
You will see the feed back and design cycle.
3. Look at JF-17's 1st prototype wing design
4. Look at JF-17's final wing design.

U will see that the same design changes in step 1 &2 are placed in 3 & 4 project. That is just one example.

Have u seen the nose design of F-16 Black A/B and the nose design of J-10 ?

Yes, you are right in the case of JF-17 project, PAC and CAC are the developers and PAF is the user. PAF's contribution is the most valuable in this development coz they are the ultimate user. But I hope you are also aware of difference between user and developer and their contribution.

 

[Sapper]

Dear, you are correct, no doubt about that, but do tell me one thing.

China has access to all the Mig and Sukhoi variant (minus the very recent ones), and that has been the case since its independence in 40s~50s, and it has been producing them for many many years as well. But why is that when compared to any one of these designs, JF17 cannot be compared to any one of these, not even a little bit. But when compared to Western fighters, JF17 has striking feature similarities to F16, F5 and Mirages. Not only the internal components, but in external airframe as well, so much so that their aerodynamic pluses and minuses are not only known but very well addressed in the final design of JF17. How is it possible that China came up with a design so familiar with western fighters, combining the most lethal elements and avoiding all the pitfalls, while still having no other aircraft in service using similar features (except J10 which admittedly got assistance f.rom Lavi program itself).

Pakistan cannot develop or build an aircraft of JF-17's caliber, not even now, not without an industrial base comparable to Chinese, Europeans or American. The "idea" with specifications was presented to China for joint development, and since they were already geared up, their R&D efforts were shaped and focused by Pakistani input.

Pakistani researchers had already selected the unique blend of aerodynamics and components characteristics to be combined and produce a balanced blend of best features f.rom F16, F5 and Mirage, and they needed someone to take their work to the next level i.e. production. China was the one which "actually" made the concoction work with as little as 4~5 years of R&D. Do you really think China had enough R&D to produce a jet mimicking all the western systems in just 4~5 years. Pakistan also provided enough research to avoid the pitfalls that limit the performance of F16s, F5s and Mirages at different performance parameters, which made JF17 a true multirole capability unlike any of Chinese fighters ever produced (considering J10 as air-superiority fighter).

I hope this clarifies things rather than creating more confusion.
PS: I know PAF does not own any F5s, but PAF pilots and engineer have dozens of years of experience on F5s f.rom both USA (training) as well as middle eastern nations. Also, Mirage similarities are with mostly internal components rather than external airframe.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Sapper]

cannot post complete message ... it gives me Page 404 error ... why is that, moderators please help

 

[TaimiKhan]

cannot post complete message ... it gives me Page 404 error ... why is that

try changing any "from" word to "f.rom" and then post the msg.

 

[Sapper]

Dear, you are correct, no doubt about that, but do tell me one thing.

China has access to all the Mig and Sukhoi variant (minus the very recent ones), and that has been the case since its independence in 40s~50s, and it has been producing them for many many years as well. But why is that when compared to any one of these designs, JF17 cannot be compared to any one of these, not even a little bit. But when compared to Western fighters, JF17 has striking feature similarities to F16, F5 and Mirages. Not only the internal components, but in external airframe as well, so much so that their aerodynamic pluses and minuses are not only known but very well addressed in the final design of JF17. How is it possible that China came up with a design so familiar with western fighters, combining the most lethal elements and avoiding all the pitfalls, while still having no other aircraft in service using similar features (except J10 which admittedly got assistance f.rom Lavi program itself).

Pakistan cannot develop or build an aircraft of JF-17's caliber, not even now, not without an industrial base comparable to Chinese, Europeans or American. The "idea" with specifications was presented to China for joint development, and since they were already geared up, their R&D efforts were shaped and focused by Pakistani input.

Pakistani researchers had already selected the unique blend of aerodynamics and components characteristics to be combined and produce a balanced blend of best features f.rom F16, F5 and Mirage, and they needed someone to take their work to the next level i.e. production. China was the one which "actually" made the concoction work with as little as 4~5 years of R&D. Do you really think China had enough R&D to produce a jet mimicking all the western systems in just 4~5 years. Pakistan also provided enough research to avoid the pitfalls that limit the performance of F16s, F5s and Mirages at different performance parameters, which made JF17 a true multirole capability unlike any of Chinese fighters ever produced (considering J10 as air-superiority fighter).

I hope this clarifies things rather than creating more confusion.
PS: I know PAF does not own any F5s, but PAF pilots and engineer have dozens of years of experience on F5s f.rom both USA (training) as well as middle eastern nations. Also, Mirage similarities are with mostly internal components rather than external airframe.

Regards,
Sapper

Thanks (changing to f.rom worked), i am re-posting the complete post, but i have also successfully edited the previous post as well. sorry for that

 

[ASQ-1918]

I hope we can receive the first delivery before 2011. What is the status of JF-17 as whole?

 

[Super Falcon]

i think paf should not take any engines from russia now they will make a probleum for us in future we cannot count on russia on any defence regards paf has to look now for the alternatives or buy huge amount of old mig 29 which is not good tooo and it willl be cost better to buy engines from france better engines than mirage fighter jet or equally mirage 200-5 engines

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I hope we can receive the first delivery before 2011. What is the status of JF-17 as whole?

I suppose if Azerbijan buys FC-1 from china then its going to be a simple variant not like PAF with western systems however the first 50 batch are going to be a chinese version.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I hope we can receive the first delivery before 2011. What is the status of JF-17 as whole?

11 aircraft in action, first batch of 50 aircrafts on order, one or two prototypes for testing and evaluation being flown in China.

First Sqd of PAF would be there by mid 2010.

 

[ASQ-1918]

Thank's for the answers.

 

[TaimiKhan]

But Azerbaijan's order may have to wait for the time being, till Chinese engine doesn't comes into action, as Russia may not like its engined aircraft getting exported to one of its potential markets.

 

[ASQ-1918]

But Azerbaijan's order may have to wait for the time being, till Chinese engine doesn't comes into action, as Russia may not like its engined aircraft getting exported to one of its potential markets.

Potential market? Russia dosen't sell us any expensive equipment. Because its allied to Armenia.

West (Nato) neither are positive about the sell of equipment, reason being Azerbaijan's Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. There are kinda embargo on us. So only markets left to us are Ukraine, Israel etc...

Not to be offensive, it is really good but we wouldn't go after JF-17 if we had better choices.

 

[ASQ-1918]

But one thing, the first news (also from the defence ministery) was that the deal was signed with Pakistan not China. So I m not sure, this news might be wrong.