China test its J-10 fighters near borders with India.

[SinoChallenger]

According to this CPC propaganda news Chongdu 10 is inferior to Rafale

LOL China has more than 200 J-10's, india has 0 Rafale. IAF's Rafale deal faces delay

J-20 enters mass production next year. I doubt india would get its first Rafale by 2020.

Forget about trying to compare with China. india is so inferior it's not even funny.

This thread has covered allot of topics not mentioned in the title.

As for the J 10, I think most will agree that its true capability will be known to everyone once it is truly tested in combat.

When the J-10, PLAAF pilots, the weapons, sub systems, etc. are battle tested, there wont be so many unknowns.

Seeing what the Rafale can do in combat, and considering the J 10 has not had the chance to prove itself in combat yet, I would bet on the Rafale until the PLAAF goes to war and proves itself and its weapons platforms.

LOL it's never about individual weapons system. It's not a 1 on 1 duel. It's about air force versus air force. Even more importantly, nation versus nation.

China is a nation that can crank out hundreds of 4 generation aircraft. Very soon we'll be cranking out 4.5 generation and 5 generation aircraft.

india is a third world country that would be lucky to afford a dozen Rafale for airshows and such. Don't even have the money to buy fuel to train their pilots properly that's why indian air force is so dangerous for the pilots

It's a "competition" only in a superficial way. Once you dig beneath the surface, it's no competition at all!

 

[Martian2]

stop spamming dude... do u think anyone will take u seriously.. its ******* seriously hilarious... thanks for the laughs..

My post is full of facts and reputable citations. It is an objective analysis.

I want to mention the "J-10A vs. French Rafale" comparison post is a response to Dr. Somnath. On many forums, he has been making the claim that the French Rafale is superior to the J-10A. I had to write this rebuttal to set the record straight.

----------

China's J-10A Vigorous Dragon is superior to French Rafale

China's J-10A flies higher, faster, and carry longer-range PL-12 AAM (air-to-air missile) than French Rafale.

The J-10A carries four PL-12 missiles with 70+ km range that can easily shoot down a French Rafale carrying shorter 50km range MICA missiles.

China has deployed its J-10A fighters along the Indian border. India is buying French Rafale fighters to counter the Chinese J-10A Vigorous Dragons. A comparison shows the Chinese J-10A to be superior to the French Rafale.

The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

For within-visual-range (WVR) combat, a J-10A can circle above and swoop down with guns blazing on a helpless French Rafale. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).

The J-10A can carry four PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles with 70+ km range. However, the MICA missile carried by the French Rafale has a much shorter 50km range (according to GlobalSecurity).

In fairness, I have elected not to cite the higher 100km range for the PL-12 (see International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > The Air Balance on the Taiwan Strait).

The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale. This means the J-10A can fire its four PL-12 missiles at a French Rafale at 60km and fly home safely. The French Rafale's slower speed means it cannot chase down a J-10A.

The final point is the deadliness of China's PL-12 missiles.

Advanced but Unproved Chinese BVR Medium Range Missile SD-10

"Its seven recent test firings all hit the targets.
...
Experts believe that domestic SD-10's performance has surpassed the U.S. AIM-120A/B, Russian R-77 and the French MICA (Missile d'Interception et de Combat Aerien), etc., and close to the AIM-120C."

[Note: PL-12/SD-10 refer to the same missile.]

----------

References (for Wikipedia articles, see primary source footnotes):

Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mica

 

[Abhishek_]

wow, the delusions are quite hilarious

martian talking about facts??? seriously?

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Well... Technically specking , NO chinese Plane came even close SU-30 MKI in technical Terms, I asked about chinese plane capability , their Radar coverage and no chinese have the answer ........... they only dreams ...wet dreams and say their plane is superior and it will but on papers .

 

[Roybot]

LOL China has more than 200 J-10's, india has 0 Rafale. IAF's Rafale deal faces delay

Doesn't change the fact that CPC itself accepts the Chongdu 10 is inferior to Rafale.

According to this CPC propaganda news Chongdu 10 is inferior to Rafale

 

[Martian2]

Well... Technically specking , NO chinese Plane came even close SU-30 MKI in technical Terms, I asked about chinese plane capability , their Radar coverage and no chinese have the answer ........... they only dreams ...wet dreams and say their plane is superior and it will but on papers .

Chinese AESA radar can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140 to 200km range

China has KJ-2000 AWACS and KJ-200 AEW&C with AESA radar. There is already an ESA radar for Chinese fighter jets.

The KJ-200 AEW&C and KJ-2000 AWACS can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140 to 200km range. This information can be transmitted to a J-10A, which can shoot down a French Rafale from 70km away.

Of course, in real combat, a "dirty" French Rafale will carry missiles, bombs, and/or drop tanks. Since the Rafale has no internal weapon bays, it will be detected far in excess of the 140 to 200km range for a "clean" Rafale.

China's KJ-2000 AWACS can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 200km. The citation is under "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on French Rafale. I am assuming KJ-2000 has comparable performance to E3-C AWACS.

China's KJ-000 AEW&C can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140km. The citation is under "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on French Rafale. I am assuming KJ-200 has comparable performance to E2-C Hawkeye.

China's electronically scanned array (ESA) radar. This could be AESA or PESA. It doesn't really matter. China possesses expertise with AESA technology in the KJ-2000 and KJ-200. The only issues are miniaturization, low-cost production, and reliability. Even if the depicted ESA radar is PESA, China is only one upgrade away from an AESA radar for the J-10.

----------

Citation:

Illustration from "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on a "clean" French Rafale, which is not carrying missiles, bombs, or drop tanks. A "dirty" Rafale would have a RCS about ten times higher than the illustration.

 

[shuttler]

Doesn't change the fact that CPC itself accepts the Chongdu 10 is inferior to Rafale.

According to this CPC propaganda news Chongdu 10 is inferior to Rafale

The program commentator said the iaf has had bad experience adjusting to French airplanes before. By the time the rafales are delivered, iaf will be facing a new challenge of the upcoming versions of J10.

 

[DrSomnath999]

My post is full of facts and reputable citations. It is an objective analysis.

I want to mention the "J-10A vs. French Rafale" comparison post is a response to Dr. Somnath. On many forums, he has been making the claim that the French Rafale is superior to the J-10A. I had to write this rebuttal to set the record straight.

----------

China's J-10A Vigorous Dragon is superior to French Rafale

China's J-10A flies higher, faster, and carry longer-range PL-12 AAM (air-to-air missile) than French Rafale.

The J-10A carries four PL-12 missiles with 70+ km range that can easily shoot down a French Rafale carrying shorter 50km range MICA missiles.

China has deployed its J-10A fighters along the Indian border. India is buying French Rafale fighters to counter the Chinese J-10A Vigorous Dragons. A comparison shows the Chinese J-10A to be superior to the French Rafale.

The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

For within-visual-range (WVR) combat, a J-10A can circle above and swoop down with guns blazing on a helpless French Rafale. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).

The J-10A can carry four PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles with 70+ km range. However, the MICA missile carried by the French Rafale has a much shorter 50km range (according to GlobalSecurity).

In fairness, I have elected not to cite the higher 100km range for the PL-12 (see International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > The Air Balance on the Taiwan Strait).

The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale. This means the J-10A can fire its four PL-12 missiles at a French Rafale at 60km and fly home safely. The French Rafale's slower speed means it cannot chase down a J-10A.

The final point is the deadliness of China's PL-12 missiles.

Advanced but Unproved Chinese BVR Medium Range Missile SD-10

"Its seven recent test firings all hit the targets.
...
Experts believe that domestic SD-10's performance has surpassed the U.S. AIM-120A/B, Russian R-77 and the French MICA (Missile d'Interception et de Combat Aerien), etc., and close to the AIM-120C."

[Note: PL-12/SD-10 refer to the same missile.]

----------

References (for Wikipedia articles, see primary source footnotes):

Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mica

LLLOLLLZZ DUDE , plz educate urself properly MICA's maximum range is 60 km .

Mica RF
But some websites/forums even claim maximum aerodynamic range is 80km but cant be verified though

MICA missile for upgraded Mirage 2000 - SP's Aviation
& u forgot another great BVRAAM it's going to have METEOR ramjet BVRAAM by 2015 check it's range & capabilty

but unfortuantely SD 10 's range is 60-70km CHECK !!! ,

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

& BTW u dont know nothing RAFALE's Electronic warfare capabilty thanks to it's 5th GEN SPECTRA EW suite it is not so easy to
shoot down as it looks to U.

Infact no 4th or 4.5 gen chinese Jet is comparable to rafale i throw an an open challenge to u if u got balls then start a new
thread rafale VS any x ,y z 4th or 4.5 gen fighter in CAF i would show u why rafale rulez .
DO U GET ME

 

[DrSomnath999]

Chinese AESA radar can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140 to 200km range

China has KJ-2000 AWACS and KJ-200 AEW&C with AESA radar. There is already an ESA radar for Chinese fighter jets.

The KJ-200 AEW&C and KJ-2000 AWACS can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140 to 200km range. This information can be transmitted to a J-10A, which can shoot down a French Rafale from 70km away.


Of course, in real combat, a "dirty" French Rafale will carry missiles, bombs, and/or drop tanks. Since the Rafale has no internal weapon bays, it will be detected far in excess of the 140 to 200km range for a "clean" Rafale.

China's KJ-2000 AWACS can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 200km. The citation is under "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on French Rafale. I am assuming KJ-2000 has comparable performance to E3-C AWACS.

China's KJ-000 AEW&C can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140km. The citation is under "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on French Rafale. I am assuming KJ-200 has comparable performance to E2-C Hawkeye.

China's electronically scanned array (ESA) radar. This could be AESA or PESA. It doesn't really matter. China possesses expertise with AESA technology in the KJ-2000 and KJ-200. The only issues are miniaturization, low-cost production, and reliability. Even if the depicted ESA radar is PESA, China is only one upgrade away from an AESA radar for the J-10.

----------

Citation:

Illustration from "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on a "clean" French Rafale, which is not carrying missiles, bombs, or drop tanks. A "dirty" Rafale would have a RCS about ten times higher than the illustration.

LLLOLLLZ u brought awacs in to the comparision as if we dont have awacs & J10 is a stealth plane
Oh boy!! india has already teamed up with Russia to built KS 100 novator 200-300 km anti radiation missile to destroy awacs &
once it's get destroyed J10 would be forced to use it's radar & once it turn's up it's radar rafale's SPECTRA EW suite would
passively detect it & cue it's MICA or Meteor missile without turning on it's aesa radar for stealth reason .DO u get me know



INFACT IT"S AN INSULT TO RAFALE COMPARING IT WITH J10

 

[Martian2]

LLLOLLLZZ DUDE , plz educate urself properly MICA's maximum range is 60 km .

My citations are from highly respected and reputable sources

1. My citation for MICA range of 50km is from the highly respected GlobalSecurity.

2. Most citations for the PL-12 are 70km+. (See four primary sources at Wikipedia article: PL-12 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

3. The highly respected Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center claims the PL-12 has a range of 100km. This estimate is probably the most accurate. He has direct knowledge (see footnote 22 below).

Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center (IASC) claims the PL-12 has a range of 100km.

In footnote 22, Richard Fisher at IASC explains the sources of his 100km range estimate for PL-12.

 

[DrSomnath999]

1. My citation of MICA range of 50km is from the highly respected GlobalSecurity.


2. Most citations for the PL-12 is 70km+. (See four primary sources at Wikipedia article: PL-12 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

3. The highly respected Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center claims the PL-12 has a range of 100km.

Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center (IASC) claims the PL-12 has a range of 100km.

In footnote 22, Richard Fisher at IASC explains the sources of his 100km range estimate for PL-12.

LLLOLLLLZ ur citation sources are as nonsense like U
MBDA itself states MICA range is 60km &
& meanwhile louyang & CNair itself stating PL 12 's range is 60 -70km & u r beleiving it's 100km as western sources beleive it .
LLOLLLZ thats so funny

Citing sources from Global security & wikipedia & u want to prove ur claim is absolute stupidity

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

The program commentator said the iaf has had bad experience adjusting to French airplanes before. By the time the rafales are delivered, iaf will be facing a new challenge of the upcoming versions of J10.

These French Mirages 2000 were modified by Indian itself to carry nuclear/ precision bombs which were used during Kargil. French made no objection to modified their PLane to suite indian needs.

 

[AADHAAR]

the junk-10s are so useless ... that they have already begun to be retired. search for retired j-10 on google

fastest retirement for any "combat plane" ... if junk-10 could ever be considerd a "combat plane".

people need start speculations on retirement of junk-20 now .... junk-10 is a boring piece of history, not worth discussing anymore.

and chinese guys .... isn't it too late for junk-30, junk-40 ... if nothing, they will atleast keep the chinese fanboys excited

 

[kingdurgaking]

My post is full of facts and reputable citations.

Failed in all levels .... Rafale speed and missile and service ceiling is alone not the parameter that adds to kill..

Firstly Service Ceiling refers to highest altitude in clean configuration.. J-10 flying at high altitude doesnt mean it can carry missile even at that level.. Secondly J-10 being a single engine it can fly because of the amount of air and weight it can fly at the high altitude where as Rafale being a dual engine fighter altitudes .... and high altitude engagements are usually done for A2G strikes and no stupid fighter pilot will engage enemy owing to the risk of engine getting shut down and loosing the fight... you are a epic failure here

Secondly coming to your missile range and no of missile.. While Rafale can carry 5 drop tanks along with 6 A2A missile with SPECTRA in its side it will be able to engage your J-10 much better than your J-10 because it has can do more flying to engage ... and MICA's speed is MACH4 .. it can outspeed your J-10.. and FYI Dassault is twin engine and J-10 is a single engine... another epic failure...

It is a silly thing that i am replying to you.. but this is for others... As we are of your childish arguments in your J-20 threads ...

 

[sancho]

Three points that shows that you have no clue of what you are talking!

I am assuming KJ-2000 has comparable performance to E3-C AWACS.

I am assuming KJ-200 has comparable performance to E2-C Hawkeye.

This could be AESA or PESA.

I'm not surprised about your lack of knowledge of Rafale, but you even don't know about KJ 2000, KJ 200 and J10 itself but still gets to conclusions.