China Lost World War II

[gambit]

That hypothesis did not exist.

Do you know what is a 'hypothesis' ?

Try this...

...a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

The investigation here is intellectual, as in speculation as to what could have been.

 

[Aepsilons]

That hypothesis did not exist.

That's why I said had it been realized. I think you need to understand that during the early part of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, Japan was fighting with one arm behind its back. You understand that right? The United States was blocking Japanese full mobilization in China by threatening to cut scrap metal exports, as well as oil exports to Japan. Japan mobilized only 1/4th of its Army into China.

I think everything would have been different had Japan deployed the ENTIRE Imperial Army into China.

And THAT's just the truth.

Do you know what is a 'hypothesis' ?

Try this...

...a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

The investigation here is intellectual, as in speculation as to what could have been.

Good Point, Sir.

 

[Place Of Space]

The Party cannot afford to call itself anything else.

Think about it for a moment. Every country needs a set of moral principles as guidance, at least on the surface anyway. The US have democracy and capitalism. The Western countries shares the same even though each may execute these ideals differently.

Communism is the political expression of Marxism, or to put it another way, communism is the executor of Marxism. The Soviet Union and China failed at communism, which discredited Marx. As far as we know, and I could be mistaken, China have not made an official statement that communism failed. For China, it was embarrassing enough to adopt capitalism as necessary for national survival, it would be even worse for face if China had to publicly admit that communism failed.

The Party have 'communism' in its label simply because there is nothing else to replace it.

Why you guys hate communism so much? Just because the communist advise equality, support the black, support the Africans, support the former colonies, right? To be honest, the colony system collapsed, Communism hasn't won completely, but achieved great success.

@ComradeNam If the US, France, Japan supported Vietnamese independence, Ho Chi Minh in the first place wouldn't seek support from communists' nations.

@Nick81 USSR gave India more supports than America during Indian independence and cold war period. Til 1990's India was still socialism economy system, because India had no other choice. India received mostly from USSR. Try to learn and express thanksgiving.

 

[Aepsilons]

That hypothesis did not exist, at least CPC armies were larger and larger inside territory occupied by Japanese at all time and far more powerful than your focus, KMT armies.

I must have to say; the CHINESE have the AMERICANS to THANK for BLOCKING the FULL MOBILIZATION of the JAPANESE WAR MACHINE into China from 1931 till 1945.

So as much as how Chinese Nationalists can be anti-American, the Americans seem to be the most concerned of the Chinese throughout the Pacific War. From behind the scenes to the military theater.

Just so ironic.

 

[dy1022]

In the Height of the Great Imperial Japanese Empire [Dai Nippon Teikoku] the size of the Imperial Japanese Army was 6.2 million. The Imperial Japanese Navy had a personnel of 1.7-2.0 million. The Imperial Japanese Air Service had an additional 1 million. The Imperial War Machine was 9-10 million strong.

Statistically speaking, about 1/4th of the Imperial Army's strength was concentrated to deal with China. When the Japanese Empire was at war with the United States, most of the battle hardened soldiers of the Kwangtung Army were sent to deal with them in the Pacific Islands, after they were mobilized to conquer most of Southeast Asia (defeating the British, Dutch, French). The soldiers stationed in China to deal with the Chinese were mostly conscripts.

Constitutively speaking, the Americans were a greater threat to the Great Imperial Japanese Empire than the Chinese rebels ever were. There is no debate on this.




Hypothetically speaking, let's say that Japan did not go to war with America and the West, if Japan concentrated our resources on China, yes, then China would have been probably conquered and Subsumed into the Empire.

Dividing one's forces is never a practical tactic. I think our German allies at the time, the Nazi German Third Reich, did the same blunder when fighting a two front war with the West and the Soviets vis-a-vis Operation Barbarossa.

seems like you still do not understand why Japan had to attack The US navy and SEA after 1940?The US was busy at doing business with Japan from 1931-1940!

because Japan can't conquered Whole of China! the Dream of 3 months to conquered Whole of China crashed!


For conquered Whole China, in the end, it's land army!

Since Dec 1940, the PLA already started to Attack Japanese army by using more than 100 regiments.


besides the KwantungArmy , all of Japan land army left from 1941 = Conscripts.





1.55 million Japanese army died in China!

number of injuries and deaths in China warland more than 2.55 Million ( 89% of whole Japanese army injuries and deaths in WW2)

in 1945, we got 1.28 million Japanese POW ( 50% of whole Overseas Japanese POW)

 

[Aepsilons]

Communism

Communism collapsed.

China, the PRC, is only Communist by Name. PRC is structurally and administratively speaking -- A Capitalist Socialist Authoritarian State with pseudo indirect representative assembly. There is nothing Communist about China , now.

 

[DoubanJam.Yee]

Chinese commies tried to use same kind of trick on Vietnam which the western use on them, using Vietnam as chess piece to leverage its position with U.S. but failed.

If Soviet did not split Mongolia, Chinese will be now thinking they are descend of Genghis Khan, was one of the world ruler.

I'm sorry my Mongolia friends indeed thinking they are descend of Genghis Khan.
but I don't. and they also think they're Chinese as I do. can you understand?
back to the topic. China's contribution in WWII should rank the 4th. Should be Better than France, Let along Philippin and Viet.
The Chinese Kept on fighting for many years though lost in thousands of combats and finally got an independent and unified country. just like what you did in Vietnam War.

 

[Place Of Space]

Communism collapsed.

China, the PRC, is only Communist by Name. PRC is structurally and administratively speaking -- A Capitalist Socialist Authoritarian State with pseudo indirect representative assembly. There is nothing Communist about China , now.

It likes to say Christianism collapsed, because none of a country is led by Bishop, is only Christian by name.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

That's why I said had it been realized. I think you need to understand that during the early part of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, Japan was fighting with one arm behind its back. You understand that right? The United States was blocking Japanese full mobilization in China by threatening to cut scrap metal exports, as well as oil exports to Japan. Japan mobilized only 1/4th of its Army into China.

I think everything would have been different had Japan deployed the ENTIRE Imperial Army into China.

And THAT's just the truth.



Good Point, Sir.

There was some logic behind this:
World war ii - Embargoes and Sanctions

"But while Roosevelt turned from sanctions toward measures of positive aid to Europe, in Asia his administration moved toward a more pointed use of embargoes against Japan. Japan relied heavily upon American oil and metals to supply its war effort in China. Any threat to stop those exports would have a significant impact on Japanese plans. The swing of public opinion and the revision of the Neutrality Act in 1939 allowed Roosevelt to take some action on behalf of China. So, in May 1939 the United States notified Japan that it was withdrawing from the 1911 Treaty of Commerce. According to terms of the treaty, in six months the United States would be free to limit or terminate exports to Japan. Roosevelt hoped this would give the Japanese pause, but Japan continued its war in China. The U.S. government hesitated to implement sanctions for fear that they would drive Japan to replace the embargoed items by invading new sources of supply. This would most likely be Southeast Asia, where French, British, and Dutch colonies were supplying those same vital materials to America's allies in Europe. The six-month period of grace passed, then a year, with no sanctions applied."

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The US was more worried about how things affected Europe than China. So the hammer didn't come down.
Again fate has subtle twists and turns. So when Japan did invade French IndoChina there was a reason the US paid notice. It could cutoff the European supply chain. Things then hit the fan.

 

[Aepsilons]

seems like you still do not understand why Japan had to attack The US navy and SEA after 1940?

because Japan can't conquered Whole of China! the Dream of 3 months to conquered Whole of China crashed!


For conquered Whole China, in the end, it's land army!

Since Dec 1940, the PLA already started to Attack Japanese army by using more than 100 regiments.


besides the KwantungArmy , all of Japan land army left from 1941 = Conscripts.

1. Failure of Japanese - American diplomatic talks:

• American DEMANDED that Japan leave China
• American DEMANDED that Japan leave Japan-occupied French Indochina
• American DEMANDED that Japan do so else American would impose an embargo of raw materials

IN RESPONSE:

1. Japan received assurance from Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy of cooperation in case of war
2. The Japanese Empire's Kido Butai -- struck Pearl Harbor in attempt to cripple the US Pacific Fleet
3. The Japanese Empire initiated the 'Strike South' Mandate --- The Conquest of Southeast Asia and Liberation of British India

It likes to say Christianism collapsed, because none of a country is led by Bishop, is only Christian by name.

I think you lack command of in understanding Christianity. And poor attempt to make correlation. Try another correlation.

 

[Place Of Space]

Communism collapsed.

China, the PRC, is only Communist by Name. PRC is structurally and administratively speaking -- A Capitalist Socialist Authoritarian State with pseudo indirect representative assembly. There is nothing Communist about China , now.

Yes, yes, every time, we talk about WWII, some guys like you and pinoy will lead the topic to cold war and capitalist-communist conflicts. You can escape form the punishment for a while but can't escape forever. Sooner or later, you Japanese has to face up to it directly.

 

[Abacin]

Communism collapsed.

China, the PRC, is only Communist by Name. PRC is structurally and administratively speaking -- A Capitalist Socialist Authoritarian State with pseudo indirect representative assembly. There is nothing Communist about China , now.

If you define Communism as Marxism and Leninism, clearly china is not. But PRC is founded on Maoism. Deng simply modified Maoism. Most people do not like to admit the current truth, not soviet Union, but China is defining communism now by inputting Chinese 5000 years wisdom. China is the winner of Cold War, together with United States. While United States got the superpower status, China turns a former major enemy into a material base and also takes the definition power of communism. A win-win situation for both China and United States. Mao knew the structural problem of Soviet Communism in 1950s and decided to leave the Soviet Camp since he knew that Soviet Union was doomed as early as 1950s

 

[DoubanJam.Yee]

Close to about 9 million soldiers in the Imperial Army, Navy, Air Service. About 1-2 million where in China. The the rest where all over Asia, Pacific, Arctic, Japan.

Its similar to the Japanese epic of "The Conqueror of 10 Directions" or "Lord of 4 Winds".

what the Imperial Army did from 1931 to 1941 December? I think they had only one direction that's on China.
if they was preparing for "The Conqueror of 10 Directions" or "Lord of 4 Winds".
I would say they're idiot in strategy.

 

[Place Of Space]

1. Failure of Japanese - American diplomatic talks:

• American DEMANDED that Japan leave China
• American DEMANDED that Japan leave Japan-occupied French Indochina
• American DEMANDED that Japan do so else American would impose an embargo of raw materials

IN RESPONSE:

1. Japan received assurance from Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy of cooperation in case of war
2. The Japanese Empire's Kido Butai -- struck Pearl Harbor in attempt to cripple the US Pacific Fleet
3. The Japanese Empire initiated the 'Strike South' Mandate --- The Conquest of Southeast Asia and Liberation of British India

I think you lack command of in understanding Christianity. And poor attempt to make correlation. Try another correlation.

Cairo is a city name shielded by Japanese books. Cairo Declaration was issued by China, America and Britain together.

 

[Aepsilons]

There was some logic behind this:
World war ii - Embargoes and Sanctions

"But while Roosevelt turned from sanctions toward measures of positive aid to Europe, in Asia his administration moved toward a more pointed use of embargoes against Japan. Japan relied heavily upon American oil and metals to supply its war effort in China. Any threat to stop those exports would have a significant impact on Japanese plans. The swing of public opinion and the revision of the Neutrality Act in 1939 allowed Roosevelt to take some action on behalf of China. So, in May 1939 the United States notified Japan that it was withdrawing from the 1911 Treaty of Commerce. According to terms of the treaty, in six months the United States would be free to limit or terminate exports to Japan. Roosevelt hoped this would give the Japanese pause, but Japan continued its war in China. The U.S. government hesitated to implement sanctions for fear that they would drive Japan to replace the embargoed items by invading new sources of supply. This would most likely be Southeast Asia, where French, British, and Dutch colonies were supplying those same vital materials to America's allies in Europe. The six-month period of grace passed, then a year, with no sanctions applied."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The US was more worried about how things affected Europe than China. So the hammer didn't come down.
Again fate has subtle twists and turns. So when Japan did invade French IndoChina there was a reason the US paid notice.

Thanks for the link, but I think its important to understand that tho the United States didn't impose sanctions prior to the war, the threat of embargo had a REAL and ABSOLUTE impact in politics in the heart of the Japanese Empire , period. In fact, the American threat of embargo can even be argued to be the catalyst of Japan's Military to seize command of Government in the Coup De'tat that saw Tojo seize power from the Fumimaro Konoe, who was actually a moderate by standards in compared to Tojo (a military right wing ultranationalist).

In fact, Konoe HAD attempted to make concessions to the United States, which would be used against his detractors (pro-Tojo forces) to topple Konoe from power and replaced by the Military's own.

I must stress two things:

1. America had an ABSOLUTE impact in influencing politics in Japan in the lead up to the 2nd World War
2. America, as Japan's then largest trading partner , was the LARGEST sole provider of natural resource to Japan
   1. By this shear fact, America DIRECTLY influenced Japan's foreign policy abilities , ergo in China:
      1. America's threat of Embargo was the very reason why Konoe and Yonai were hesitant in FULLY MOBILIZING the ENTIRE Military in China.