China 'firmly opposes' PM Modi's Arunachal visit; India hits back

[Nilgiri]

No, if China wants to solve the border issues via military means, it would have not ceasefire unilaterally in 1962 after local superiority was achieved. It opted to end to flighting. To this day, China maintains its position of solving the issue through negotiation. We prefer a peaceful and mutually acceptable solution.


Just want to make a side comment on that human wave story, which is simply a myth. In modern war fighting, no attack in dense formation can survive in front of sustained machine gun and quick mortar fire. Anyone who has some knowledge of tactical fighting would know it is just a lame excuse. IMHO dismissing PLA’s tactical competency with such simply term equals to dismiss the quality of Indian troops who fought the 1962 border conflict, it is like saying they didn’t know how to operate their machine guns.

At the peak of that conflict, there were 25000-28000 combatants from PLA in the east (including artillery, engineering, etc) , which was not that much more than the number of Indian soldiers in the same area (check my reply to Joe for detailed explanation if you have time).
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/nehr...war-nehru-sought.403064/page-12#post-11156542

I have read the official war notes in that war that in most engagements that the PLA planners would like to bring about 1.5 number multiplier into the battle when they were attacking a strong Indian defense position (with machine guns, mortar, artillery guns etc). They tended to add some margin due to various unfavorable factors eg unexpected encounter, disorientation, slowed by difficult terrain etc. These Indian positions were generally breached through attacking from weak side or into the gaps between the units, rather than massive front assault.

Well who knows for sure (its not like there is accurate unbiased records)...the thing is the logistics at play in the areas now (And even then, which is why this withdrawal by PLA happened in NEFA compared to Aksai Chin...and also the road in aksai chin added to this too)....and they are buttressed up with lot more Indian capabilities there (the mountain passes and valleys) now as well.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/nehr...a-war-nehru-sought.403064/page-3#post-7761056

 

[anant_s]

Will China use military force to solve this issue once and for all?

We tend to think of use of N weapons very casually but remember any first use of N weapons apart from the fact that it is going to bring some kind of proportionate or disproportionate retaliation, also makes you utterly isolated in world community.
China is one of the biggest economies in the world but a large part of that is based on exports of services and finished goods for which you need markets and by extension good trade relations (more so with China given that have huge trade surpluses with most countries they trade with).
There is no hiding from the fact that China is militarily and economically miles ahead of India but the fact remains it is as vulnerable to established rules and principles of global diplomacy as anybody else.
In (hypothetical) case of a war, both countries are going to suffer but in the end there are going to be 2 looser parties.
Chinese leadership understands there aren't many genuinely happy powers in world that are ok with Chinese might on world forums and they will pounce upon any single opportunity if situation with China and any of its neighbors turn hot.
For India, it is simply the case that we can't afford war right now with several sectors of economy demanding resources.
Therefore diplomacy and mature understanding and resolution of whatever issues remain best bet for India and China (or any other nations for that matter).

@Chinese-Dragon @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @Nilgiri @Arsalan

 

[UKBengali]

Just answer what is the actual frontier envelope ordnance projection of the "impunity"? Give me the thermobaric number/ day.

You have done zilch in ORBAT wargaming....it shows. Run along mr "we will shoot down the very next MAF violator"....yet continues to show his face here.

How about 1000 4th and 5th get aircraft that PLAAF now has?
Resorting to your usual self of talking nonsense when you have no real point again it seems.
Even the 28 J-20s(obviously more by now) that Wiki mentions from last year are enough to ground the whole of the IAF.

We tend to think of use of N weapons very casually but remember any first use of N weapons apart from the fact that it is going to bring some kind of proportionate or disproportionate retaliation, also makes you utterly isolated in world community.
China is one of the biggest economies in the world but a large part of that is based on exports of services and finished goods for which you need markets and by extension good trade relations (more so with China given that have huge trade surpluses with most countries they trade with).
There is no hiding from the fact that China is militarily and economically miles ahead of India but the fact remains it is as vulnerable to established rules and principles of global diplomacy as anybody else.
In (hypothetical) case of a war, both countries are going to suffer but in the end there are going to be 2 looser parties.
Chinese leadership understands there aren't many genuinely happy powers in world that are ok with Chinese might on world forums and they will pounce upon any single opportunity if situation with China and any of its neighbors turn hot.
For India, it is simply the case that we can't afford war right now with several sectors of economy demanding resources.
Therefore diplomacy and mature understanding and resolution of whatever issues remain best bet for India and China (or any other nations for that matter).

While Chinese use of conventional force seems unlikely, the fact remains that China could think it can realistically exercise this option as both it's economy and military(introduction of many more J-20s) gets stronger in the future.
I just want to know will India risk a nuclear war over this state, that is all.

 

[anant_s]

I just want to know will India risk a nuclear war over this state, that is all.

Just 2 things, i'm not sure if J 20 is a game changer yet. It isn't battle proven and more importantly nobody knows (based on information available on open forums) of its RCS and effectiveness as an integrated weapon system. I would be more concerned with asymmetric fleet size of Indian and Chinese air forces where numbers will allow PLAAF to absorb more attrition as war goes on.
Second, i don't see a nuclear war. Reason is that even if there is a war, it is going to be a limited one unlikely to spread massively, more likley in form of skirmishes and here India can maintain parity. It will end up in a stalemate just like Dokalam.

 

[Crystal-Clear]

just a formal protest like indian did when Chinese visit Azad Kashmir.

 

[jamahir]

Thus they release the same statement each time an Indian PM visits....and we make the same one back (your complaint has been dutifully accepted and filed in our "dont give a F" department).

Its just a little game. Nothing changes on the ground....except more logistical +economic integration of Arunachal Pradesh with rest of India as time goes on (which tends to be the thing bringing Indian PM to visit the state in first place).

Can't argue against that.

 

[UKBengali]

Just 2 things, i'm not sure if J 20 is a game changer yet. It isn't battle proven and more importantly nobody knows (based on information available on open forums) of its RCS and effectiveness as an integrated weapon system. I would be more concerned with asymmetric fleet size of Indian and Chinese air forces where numbers will allow PLAAF to absorb more attrition as war goes on.
Second, i don't see a nuclear war. Reason is that even if there is a war, it is going to be a limited one unlikely to spread massively, more likley in form of skirmishes and here India can maintain parity. It will end up in a stalemate just like Dokalam.

True to some extent but still the J-20 will be way superior than anything India has, including the Rafale that is coming this year.

Say it is not like Chinese claims of 10:1 kill ratio against 4th gen, but more like 5:1, that is enough to ground the IAF in any conflict as losses against J-20s will be crippling. Anyway 80% of stealth is shaping and independent analysts have confirmed that from the frontal aspect, J-20 is a VLO aircraft. IAF aircraft will have to survive multiple BVR attacks from J-20s ramjet-powered PL-15s before they even know the J-20 is around.

With PLAAF dominating the skies, IA can then be mercilessly bombed from the air while the Chinese use their vast transport fleet to land thousands of men and their equipment on the ground to take on the IA.

Like I say conflict is highly unlikely right now but the Chinese may feel emboldened by say middle of next decade when they would have hundreds of J-20s, some equipped with the new WS-15 engine. The best India would have would be Rafale.

 

[kmc_chacko]

True to some extent but still the J-20 will be way superior than anything India has, including the Rafale that is coming this year.

Say it is not like Chinese claims of 10:1 kill ratio against 4th gen, but more like 5:1, that is enough to ground the IAF in any conflict as losses against J-20s will be crippling. Anyway 80% of stealth is shaping and independent analysts have confirmed that from the frontal aspect, J-20 is a VLO aircraft. IAF aircraft will have to survive multiple BVR attacks from J-20s ramjet-powered PL-15s before they even know the J-20 is around.

With PLAAF dominating the skies, IA can then be mercilessly bombed from the air while the Chinese use their vast transport fleet to land thousands of men and their equipment on the ground to take on the IA.

Like I say conflict is highly unlikely right now but the Chinese may feel emboldened by say middle of next decade when they would have hundreds of J-20s, some equipped with the new WS-15 engine. The best India would have would be Rafale.

Even after 3 generation of stealth and fourth-generation military aircraft engine building capability US is still struggling to complete F-35s and you are saying a country without any previous stealth experience built a fighter equal to latest western ? laughable claim.

 

[UKBengali]

Even after 3 generation of stealth and fourth-generation military aircraft engine building capability US is still struggling to complete F-35s and you are saying a country without any previous stealth experience built a fighter equal to latest western ? laughable claim.

F-35 is not the same as J-20.
Better to compare with F-22 and the US started inducting that from 2005 with all nearly 200 built by 2011.

Even if the J-20 had half as much kill ratio as F-22(which is claimed to be at least 10:1) against 4th generation fighters, then it will still kill 5 IAF planes for each one lost - in reality J-20 will not be lost as it will fire 4 PL-15s and then just turn back, go back to base, rearm/refuel and then just repeat the process. A squadron(12) of J-20s will shoot down many dozens of IAF planes down before another squadron takes their place and does the same again.

 

[kmc_chacko]

F-35 is not the same as J-20.
Better to compare with F-22 and the US started inducting that from 2005 with all nearly 200 built by 2011.

Even if the J-20 had half as much kill ratio as F-22(which is claimed to be at least 10:1) against 4th generation fighters, then it will still kill 5 IAF planes for each one lost - in reality J-20 will not be lost as it will fire 4 PL-15s and then just turn back, go back to base, rearm/refuel and then just repeat the process. A squadron(12) of J-20s will shoot down many dozens of IAF planes down before another squadron takes their place and does the same again.

Even if ! in reality are you serious ?

So, as per your assumption A squadron(12) of J-20s will wipe out entire IAF without any sweat.

Just tell me if J-20s is so superior then why need Su-35s ?

 

[Tshering22]

The same drama as usual.

Arunachal Pradesh is a state which is as free for any Indian to visit any time, any day and any month of the year. The PM of our country will visit every single inch of the country, if he deems it right to develop any region. What outsiders say about our own state is none of their business.

While we appreciate China's hard work to emerge as an icon of economic and social progress, we value our territorial integrity more.

China 'firmly opposes' PM Modi's Arunachal visit

Go cry me a Yangtse, booo hooo!

 

[sinait]

The same drama as usual.

Arunachal Pradesh is a state which is as free for any Indian to visit any time, any day and any month of the year. The PM of our country will visit every single inch of the country, if he deems it right to develop any region. What outsiders say about our own state is none of their business.

While we appreciate China's hard work to emerge as an icon of economic and social progress, we value our territorial integrity more.

Go cry me a Yangtse, booo hooo!

Go cry me a Yangtse, booo hooo!

Nehru DID CRY A LOT.
Nehru probably said the same jingoistic things BEFORE HE HAD TO CRY.
Indians can visit STOLEN South Tibet now, BEFORE its rightful owner, China, takes it back, SOON.
.

 

[MultaniGuy]

South Tibet is under Indian occupation.
Also South Tibet is disputed territory.

South Tibet/Arunachal Pradesh is not Indian territory.

 

[HariSinghNalwa]

Chinese keep giving such statements regularly like it give statements about dalai lama , Arunachal Pradesh is integral and inalienable part of india , and india is ready to defend it.it is not 1962 it is 2019 smell the coffee han.

 

[Arsalan 345]

nuclear war between india and china just for arunachel is impossible but india should worry.india is taking chinese warnings very lightly.terrain supports indian army,that's true but china have the ability to quickly mobilize it's armed forces.they have fantastic air force and also they are in large numbers.i don't think that india and china will fight any war for arunachel.a war between china and india is only possible when pla wants to build infrastructure and india deny.chinese army like to make roads and expand infrastructure but indian army cares about strategic positions.