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China and Pak,frendship and cooperation

Lets see if Pakistani and Chinese leaders will be able to devise strategies to counter the US destabilization of Pakistan - otherwise Pakistan will have to pay a very heavy price for it's relationship with China -- and some Pakistani politicians will be "tempted", unless it can be stopped on the ground level -- you will see this in the very near future.

Well Pakistan needs some stronger leadership for a scheme to be really effective. China can help with a lot of areas but it can't fix Pakistan's domestic situation. That is something Pakistanis must figure out by themselves (and quick).
 
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Indeed - lets however, be realistic, Pakistan has lost the ability to help herself, rudderless and without a captain, she can only hope to avoid crashing on the rocks - - on the other hand crashing may be just what Pakistan needs, perhaps China will need Pakistan to experience this.
 
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Well Pakistan needs some stronger leadership for a scheme to be really effective. China can help with a lot of areas but it can't fix Pakistan's domestic situation. That is something Pakistanis must figure out by themselves (and quick).

According to my uncle, who hardly speaks English, but has been to both Karachi and some city outside of Mumbai twice a year almost on a yearly basis over the last 5 years because of the setting up of some chemical/plastics venture in both countries, development has been fairly visible over the past 5 years ... the factories are operated by the sons of Pakistani owners and these "kids" are educated in the US just like in HongKong, Singapore etc ...

He went over there for strictly consulting. And he gets paid in cold, hard US$.

Take a guess whether he pays any tax in either China, or Pakistan ...

Industrialization and tax system "maturation" in any country takes time, I suppose.

Indeed - lets however, be realistic, Pakistan has lost the ability to help herself, rudderless and without a captain, she can only hope to avoid crashing on the rocks - - on the other hand crashing may be just what Pakistan needs, perhaps China will need Pakistan to experience this.

Crashing is relative. The people's republic crashed for nearly 30 years non-stop from 1949 to 1978. And another crash may still be around the corner. What can people do?

Few people think Pakistan looks to China for any "magical cure" or "quick fixes" for there isn't any in this direction. And they know.

However, they have IMO earned a "right" to expect the PRC to continue to backstop for them regardless how PRC "co-operates" and co-develops with India ... or regardless how the PRC continues to appease or dance with uncle.

The PRC stands against any imposed "regime change" on the Eurasian mainland. Full stop. And that is a function not just me personally, but many today support.

Any "strategic" breakthrough with India without India having a "strategic breakthrough" with Pakistan first will only cause "instablity" in China's "Great West", above and beyond constituting a "betrayl" of principle, IMO.

No spikes in share prices in "rare earth metals" on little dragon's Hang Seng exchange or any degree of Huawei's foray into Indian market are going to change that.

And let me reiterate, I am all for Huawei or whatever cooperate with Indian entrepreneurs and benefit both countries. I am for cultural co-development, too.

But some "sequences" do not change.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Crashing is relative. The people's republic crashed for nearly 30 years non-stop from 1949 to 1978. And another crash may still be around the corner. What can people do?

Few people think Pakistan looks to China for any "magical cure" or "quick fixes" for there isn't any in this direction. And they know.

I don't understand why some countries think they can immulate the China model. It is not a general model applicable to other countries, it was the solution to a specific set of problems and takes advantage of non-replicable conditions.


However, they have IMO earned a "right" to expect the PRC to continue to backstop for them regardless how PRC "co-operates" and co-develops with India ... or regardless how the PRC continues to appease or dance with uncle.

Maybe it's this recent rash of paranoia, so I should make my position clear. China owes Pakistan a historical debt. As it's oldest and most unwavering ally, it and Albania were the only two countries to send delegation to the 1960 national day. Pakistan support China when both communist and west cut off relations and that is not something to be forgotten. Pakistan also act as the interlocutor for China's reopening of relations with the USA. It was from Pakistan that Kissinger took off to China for the preliminary talks for Nixon's visit.

China has shown itself in recent days its full support for Pakistan. The flood relief was not optional as a friend so I'll skip that, and point to political support in the visa restrictions for Indian Kashmiris and the denying an occupying general a role in the India-China military talks. This is a clear indication where China lies vis-à-vis critical issues between Pakistan and India.



Any "strategic" breakthrough with India without India having a "strategic breakthrough" with Pakistan first will only cause "instablity" in China's "Great West", above and beyond constituting a "betrayl" of principle, IMO.

You've made this point before and from my posts you can gather I agree as well. My previous argument wasn't over my preferring India over Pakistan (no such case) but developereos attempt at manipulating my opinion (I never stood for it even as a child). There are more commercial gains to be had in India and China needs to maintain a level of diplomacy sufficient for this but this will only be conditional to Pakistan's position.
 
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Friends, China "owes" Pakistan nothing - But China's friendship is appreciated -- Don't ever for a minute think that China or anyone else "owes" Pakistan anything -- We don't "owe" anybody anything, especially between China and Pakistan - free nations associate not just for interests but also for the sentiment created by shared burdens.

Pakistan is today lost, but that is not the totality of Pakistan - there is an inherent resilience not just in the Pakistani nation, but also the Pakistani state -- so, it's lost today, but with friends who are true, it can find it's way.
 
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Friends, China "owes" Pakistan nothing - But China's friendship is appreciated -- Don't ever for a minute think that China or anyone else "owes" Pakistan anything -- We don't "owe" anybody anything, especially between China and Pakistan - free nations associate not just for interests but also for the sentiment created by shared burdens.

Pakistan is today lost, but that is not the totality of Pakistan - there is an inherent resilience not just in the Pakistani nation, but also the Pakistani state -- so, it's lost today, but with friends who are true, it can find it's way.

And those shared burdens as I see them are aligned. America's next step in Afghanistan is work towards victory by taking advantage of its "ally", China is thus positioned that it can work with Pakistan to stop it.
 
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You know I am not sure I really understand what US wants in Afghanistan - I think the only thing that I can say with a measure of certainty, and I do so with a measure of sadness, is that it does not want stability, it seems to want quite the opposite.

What can China or Pakistan or both together do about it? I don't think they can do very much. It's too much treasure and a net waste for both Pakistan and China - the casualties the US suffers are not significant -- and for the US to reconsider it positions, it's not blood, but treasure that can focus her mind on evacuating central Asia.

To my thinking, China can help Pakistan focus on trading with China - the international alignments will strengthen but ultimately, they can be meaningful only if Pakistan can be brought to realizing trade as a venue to the kinds of global positions it wants to be associated with.
 
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You know I am not sure I really understand what US wants in Afghanistan - I think the only thing that I can say with a measure of certainty, and I do so with a measure of sadness, is that it does not want stability, it seems to want quite the opposite.

What can China or Pakistan or both together do about it? I don't think they can do very much. It's too much treasure and a net waste for both Pakistan and China - the casualties the US suffers are not significant -- and for the US to reconsider it positions, it's not blood, but treasure that can focus her mind on evacuating central Asia.

To my thinking, China can help Pakistan focus on trading with China - the international alignments will strengthen but ultimately, they can be meaningful only if Pakistan can be brought to realizing trade as a venue to the kinds of global positions it wants to be associated with.


There is already talk amongst military men that they need to break down Pakistan to shake the Taliban out.
 
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'China reflexively supporting Pakistan on J&K'

'China reflexively supporting Pakistan on J&K' - Hindustan Times

China may be returning to "reflexively supporting Pakistan on Kashmir," bringing a shift in its "neutral" stand demonstrated during Kargil conflict in 1999 .
To counter Beijing's growing influence in the region, an American think tank has asked the US government to related stories
"continue to build strong strategic ties to India and encourage India to play a more active political and economic role in the region..
It is a first major observation by the American think- tank after the recent reports in which Jammu and Kashmir figured prominently in the diction of Indo-China relations.
To help India fulfill that role, Washington should continue to seek a robust military-to-military relationship with New Delhi and enhance defense trade ties.," said the Heritage Foundation, a Washington D C based conservative think tank in its latest report : "China's Indian Provocations Part of Broader Trend". The report was released on Thursday.

Dwelling against the backdrop of the reports of presence of 7,000 to 11,000 Chinese troops in Northern Areas of Pakistan , Gilgit – Baltistan, and Beijing's denial of visa to Northern Command chief of the Indian Army Lt. Gen. B S Jaswal ,who commands troops in Jammu and Kashmir ,the report makes a forceful plea to the Obama administration to: “Collaborate more closely with India on initiatives that strengthen economic development and democratic trends in the region and work with India to counter any Chinese moves that could potentially undermine such trends in order to ensure the peaceful, democratic development of South Asia.

The report written by Dean Cheng and Lisa Curtis, experts on China and South Asia respectively , also suggested that Washington should "cooperate with India respectively in matching increased Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean region. Given the substantial Indian naval capabilities, U.S. naval forces should increase their interaction with their Indian counterparts, both to improve Indian naval capabilities and to signal Beijing."

The two experts have also taken note of Beijing's observations about the state, claiming parts with Pakistan as Pakistan's Northern Areas, while the part with India as "Indian controlled Kashmir" .

Beijing's latest stand on J&K is a shift in its position adopted during Kargil conflict in 1999, when it had persuaded Islamabad to withdraw its troops from the Indian side of the Line of Control.It is a reference to then Beijing position that Pakistan should "respect sanctity of the LoC" .

"China may be returning to a position of reflexively supporting Pakistan on Kashmir. Since the 1999 Kargil border conflict between India and Pakistan, Beijing's position on Kashmir seemed to be evolving toward a more neutral position," the report said .

" During that conflict, Beijing helped convince Pakistan to withdraw forces from the Indian side of the Line of Control following its incursion into the Kargil region of Jammu and Kashmir. Beijing made clear its position that the two sides should resolve the Kashmir conflict through bilateral negotiations, not military force."

After 1962 war between the two countries , fresh border tensions on Sino-India borders, now called LAC or Line of Actual Control in 2008- 2009 when Chinese troops intruded into the Indian side. India had responded with increasing its military presence as also building more infrastructure along the LAC.
 
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China says trade with Pakistan could double within five years
China says trade with Pakistan could double within five years - People's Daily Online

A senior Chinese trade official said Friday that trade between China and Pakistan could double within five years to hit 15 billion U.S. dollars in 2015.

Chinese Minister of Commerce Chen Deming made the remarks when addressing the China-Pakistan Economic Cooperation Forum, held on the sidelines of Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari's working visit in China.

Hailing the smooth development of China-Pakistan trade and economic cooperation in recent years, Chen said there's enormous potential for trade growth.

He called on companies of the two countries to learn more about and give full play to the existing free-trade agreement, expand investment and bilateral trade.

He also urged the two sides to make full use of bilateral cooperation mechanisms and make them serve the two countries' trade and economic cooperation.

Highlighting the traditional friendship between China and Pakistan, Zardari echoed Chen saying that the two countries should join hands and strengthen cooperation in all areas and work for common development.

Pakistan is China's second largest trading partner in south Asia, while China is Pakistan's fourth largest trading partner, second largest source of imports and seventh largest exporting market.

Bilateral trade in the first five months of this year reached 3.3 billion U.S. dollars, up 31 percent. China's investment in Pakistan has expanded from resources, home appliances to communications and finance.

China and Pakistan signed a free trade agreement in November 2006, which came into effect on July 1 2007.

Source: Xinhua
 
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China opening trade doors to Pakistan

China opening trade doors to Pakistan | The Global Realm

By Syed Fazl-e-Haider
Asia Times
June 18, 2010

KARACHI – China has pledged to provide trade concessions to Islamabad that it is not getting from the United States and European Union, according to a Pakistan government official after a visit to the country last week by Chinese Vice Prime Minister Zhang Dejiang.

At meetings with Pakistani officials in Islamabad, Zhang called for strengthening economic and trade linkages through improved transportation, communication and energy corridors. China has given assurances it will provide trade concessions that will have a positive impact on Pakistan’s economy, Business Recorder reported, citing Federal Commerce Secretary Zafar Mahmood. The US and EU are not prepared to give trade concessions to Pakistan owing to the international economic recession, he said.

Early this month, the European Union and Pakistan failed to come up with any breakthroughs on liberalizing bilateral trade when they set out a five-year plan for improving ties boosting ties. EU-Pakistan trade has an annual turnover of about US$10 billion.

Last week, US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W Patterson led a delegation of Pakistani business leaders to the US to highlight the country’s investment opportunities, The Hindu reported. Pakistan’s Minister of State for Investment Saleem H Mandviwalla was also among the travelling group, the third such delegation visiting the US since April 2009 as part of the Pakistan Business Ambassadors Programme, the report said.

Zhang’s visit to Pakistan will lead to increased trade with China and more investments by China’s public and private companies over the next 12 months, local analysts said. China is already challenging the EU and the US in the top-three ranking of Pakistan’s largest trading partners as it has increased investment in numerous sectors, including port development, roads, railways, mobile telephony, communication technology, hydro and thermal power, mining, electronics, and nuclear energy.

China has supported Pakistan in its goal of building a gas pipeline from Iran, a project agreed to this month, and has said it will build two new nuclear power plants, Chashma-3 and Chashma-4 in Punjab province, both moves over the strong opposition of Western countries, including the US.

Pakistan needs to boost exports as it seeks to contain its trade deficit, which in May was $1.60 billion, up from $1.09 billion a year earlier, according to the Federal Bureau of Statistic. The country’s total trade deficit in the first 11 months of the fiscal year that ends this month eased to $13.88 billion from $15.31 billion in the corresponding period last year.

Under a free-trade agreement (FTA) of 2006, China and Pakistan are committed to increase bilateral trade from the current $6.9 billion to $15 billion in the next three to four years.

The two countries have established a joint investment company for direct investment and joint ventures. Chinese President Hu Jintao in 2006 inaugurated the Pakistan-China Haier Ruba Economic Zone (HREZ) in Lahore, the first industrial park outside China supported by the Chinese government and exclusively for Chinese investment. Under the FTA deal, China is committed to consider duty-free access into China for all products manufactured in the park.

Vice Prime Minister Zhang met senior military figures during his visit last week and called for the development of common approaches to secure common strategic and economic interests. Zhang also visited the head office of ZONG, the first venture outside China of the country’s leading mobile phone operator, China Mobile. With an investment to date of $1.6 billion in Pakistan, ZONG is expanding its network in all four of the country’s provinces.

The China Council for Promotion of International Trade (CCPIT) and Pakistan’s Federation of Pakistan Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FPCCI) have also entered an agreement to foster bilateral economic cooperation. Tariq Sayeed, a former president of FPCCI, and Li Jiashou, CCPIT executive vice chairman and chairman of the CCPIT sub-council in southern Yunnan province, recently signed a memorandum of understanding in the Yunnan capital of Kunming, according to the Dawn newspaper.

The two sides aim to upgrade efforts to promote trade and investment and to involve their governments and enterprises to strengthen contact at the public and private sector level.

Zhang’s visit comes at a crucial time for Pakistan-China trade, which has been hit hard since a landslide early this year closed the Karakoram Highway. The road connects China’s Xinjiang region with Pakistan’s Gilgit-Baltistan and is a vital cross-border trade link. Due to a lake developing behind the landslide, traders had to evacuate Sost, the Chinese-built dry port on the Pakistani side of the border. The facilities at Sost have proved a boon in helping to facilitate customs clearance and other formalities for goods crossing between the two countries.

In the nuclear sector, China has so far been the only country willing to cooperate with Islamabad. Chinese companies, as announced in April, are to build at least two new 650-megawatt reactors at Chashma over the next seven years. These could prove central to Pakistan’s long-term efforts to overcome energy shortages that cause widespread and prolonged power blackouts. China began building a reactor at Chashma in 1991 and broke ground on a second one in 2005, which is expected to be completed next year. The Chashma-3 and Chashma-4 nuclear power plants are being built by Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and China Zongyuan Engineering Corporation.

Washington is concerned over the security risk of nuclear materials in Pakistan, where the Taliban movement is waging a bloody offensive, but has been restrained in the level of its criticism.

“President Barack Obama will not openly criticize the Chinese export because Washington, in the context of a bilateral security dialogue with Islamabad, may be sensitive to Pakistan’s desire for civilian nuclear cooperation in the wake of the sweeping US-India nuclear deal,” said a report released by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. The US administration, however, might object to it inside the Nuclear Suppliers Group, which oversees such transactions. These objections, however, “cannot prevent China from exporting the reactors,” the report added.

Syed Fazl-e-Haider (Syed Fazl e Haider) is a development analyst in Pakistan. He is the author of many books, including The Economic Development of Balochistan (2004). He can be contacted at sfazlehaider05@yahoo.com.
 
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Enhanced Pakistan-China defence cooperation
Enhanced Pakistan-China defence cooperation Siyasat Aur Pakistan

General Liang Guanglie, China’s Minister for Defence, led a 17 member high powered delegation to Islamabad earlier this week during which the two countries concluded three Memoranda of Understanding (MoUs) aimed at enhancing Pakistan’s capabilities to fight terror. Under the accord, the three services of the two countries would hold joint military exercises, while China would provide four trainer aircraft for PAF and 60 million Yuan for Armed Forces training. Pakistan’s Minister for Defence Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar and his Chinese counterpart Gen Liang Guanglie signed the agreements and agreed to strengthen the military cooperation and strategic communication at all levels to overcome challenges being faced by the two countries. They discussed security environment in the region and stressed the need for joint efforts to weed out terrorism. They also agreed to share intelligence gathering which was essential for defeating terrorists. Gen Liang has assured that China would continue to provide military and economic assistance to Pakistan and support its stance on different issues.
Later the high powered Chinese defence delegation called on the President and Prime Minister, who stressed on taking Sino-Pak bilateral trade, defence and commercial ties to new heights as the friendship between the two countries has matured into a comprehensive strategic partnership. The President reiterated that strengthening and enhancing cooperation with China in all fields is one of the key principles guiding Pakistan’s foreign policy. Pakistan, while raising the issue of Indian intelligence agencies’ involvement in terrorist activities in Pakistan, has asked for Chinese support to build counter-terrorism capacity. The Chinese Minister appreciated Pakistan’s efforts against terrorism, assuring that China will always stand with Pakistan in its time of need. Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in his meeting with the Chinese Defence Minister said that Pakistan has evidence of the involvement of the Indian intelligence agencies in sponsoring militancy and activities of terrorism in Pakistan from Afghanistan. He said that the increase of the UN & NATO troops in South and East Afghanistan is creating problems in Baluchistan. Pakistan has the will and the resolve to deal with these problems but needs Chinese support to build its counter-terrorism capacity.

Indeed the friendship and brotherly ties with China are not only time tested but China has always stood by Pakistan in its hour of need, whether it was war or a natural calamity. Chinese support in Pakistan’s defence capability and indigenization endeavours have been based on solid foundations. China is the only country that has provided transfer of technology, soft loans and even technical expertise with no strings attached. Whether it was tanks and field guns, destroyers and frigates or the aviation industry, Chinese support has been invaluable and proved to be a source of strength and reliance for Pakistan. On its part, Pakistan too, despite pressures from the West, has stood by China and maintained its relations despite pressures from the west to abandon it. After its independence, the new People’s Republic of China was cut off from the world, having diplomatic recognition only from a handful of nations.

It was excluded from the U.N. It soon became embroiled in the Korean War and the Cold War, which brought further isolation. Its economy was stagnated. China–Pakistan relations began in 1950 when Pakistan was among the first countries to break relations with the Republic of China or Taiwan and recognize the People’s Republic of China. Pakistan also helped China become a member of the United Nations and has also been instrumental in providing excellent relations of China with the Muslim world. Pakistan played a leading role in bridging the communication gap between China and the West, through Henry Kissinger’s secret visit in 1971, which became the forerunner of US President Nixon’s historic tour of Beijing, establishing to the world that China was a lawful entity.

Today China has come a long way from those turbulent times; it is a factor of stability in the region; is the world’s most populous and industrious nation; the world’s third largest economy and trading nation, has become a global innovator in science and technology, and is building a world-class university system. It has an increasingly modern military and commands diplomatic respect. China today has over 2,100 peacekeeping personnel deployed in about a dozen nations worldwide—more than any other member of the UN Security Council.

In this period of global economic meltdown, China not only has a stable economy but it holds roughly $1.5 trillion in U.S. assets, at least 65 percent of China’s total foreign assets, and it is the second biggest foreign holder of U.S. debt after Japan. Pak-China joint ventures to produce JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, K-8 Trainer aircraft, Al-Khalid Tank, F-22 Naval Frigates have given a new dimension to Pak-China cooperation in the field of defense. Heavy Rebuild Factory (HRF) at Taxila, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra was also established with Chinese assistance. The Karakoram Highway, the strategic port of Gawadar are a manifestation of China’s sustained interest in Pakistan, which make it imperative for us to reach out to our Chinese friends for our common endeavours for building a better future for our peoples and overcome the challenges to both nations and strive for prosperity. Time and again, Pakistan has pursued relations with the West, which has sporadically provided it weapons and defence equipment but only when it needed Pakistan’s support and later dumped it or even sanctioned it; pushing Pakistan back into economic morass. China on the other hand is the stable friend that has always been there for Pakistan.

It is high time that Pakistan recognizes the paramount role of China, and consolidates the relationship in light of the benefits the nation can draw from a deeper cooperation with Beijing, on a whole range of issues of common concern, including the strategic matters of defence, electrical power, trade, industry and nuclear energy rather than being spurned by the West at its whims. The visit by the Chinese Defence Minister has definitely enhanced Pak-China defence cooperation raising it to unprecedented heights but it needs to go even higher. Pak-China defence cooperation enhanced, Sultan M Hali
 
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China becoming Pakistan’s main trading partner
TURKMENISTAN- RUSSIA-CHINA- Turkmenistan seeks new markets for its gas - Asia News
Islamabad (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Sino-Pakistani trade is up, and China is becoming Pakistan’s main trading partner. This has raised alarm bells in Islamabad where officials are concerned that bilateral trade is leading to a major deficit. For this reason, they want the Chinese to invest more in Pakistan and give its products greater access to the Chinese market.
Chinese Deputy Prime Minister Zhang Dejiang, in Pakistan on an official visit earlier this month, gave assurances that China will provide trade concessions and increase cooperation in numerous sectors, including port development, roads, railways, mobile telephony, communication technology, hydro and thermal power, mining, electronics, and nuclear energy.

In 2006, China and Pakistan set up a Pakistan-China Haier Ruba Economic Zone (HREZ) in Lahore, the first industrial park outside China supported by the Chinese government and exclusively for Chinese investment. Under the deal, China is committed to consider duty-free access into China for all products manufactured in the park.

Quickly, China is becoming Pakistan’s top trading partner, ahead of the United States and European Union. For example, EU-Pakistan trade has an annual turnover of about US$ 10 billion. However, early this month, the European Union and Pakistan failed to come up with any breakthroughs on liberalising bilateral trade. Conversely, Islamabad granted China a number of advantages, including in the mining sector.

Beijing has also been an Islamabad booster at the international level. It has helped the Pakistanis finalise a deal with Iran to build a gas pipeline. It has also offered to build at least two new 650-megawatt reactors at Chashma over the next seven years. The Chashma-3 and Chashma-4 nuclear power plants are being built by Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and China Zongyuan Engineering Corporation, despite strong opposition by Western powers like the United States that are afraid that Islamic extremists might get hold of nuclear material.

In May, Pakistan’s trade deficit grew to US$ 1.60 billion, up from US$ 1.09 billion a year earlier. The country's total trade deficit in the first 11 months of the fiscal year that ends this month was US$ 13.88 billion.
 
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