China and Japan Inching Closer to War Over a Few Disputed Islets..

[jhungary]

What do you expect anything from Forbes?

Of course, there will be no any real physical war at the moment, but the proxy war will definitely happen at anytime right now. Since Japan is becoming crazier ever than before, the proxy war will be inevitable.

Umm, if china was fighting for china in that war, that was not called proxy war....

You can say the Korean War is a proxy war as you can interpret it as Soviet Russia and US fighting a war using N and S Korea.

Unless china is fighting for some one else's interest, that was a regional conflict, not proxy...

 

[kbd-raaf]

I quoted this yesterday too....that very recently China had shown Arunachal pradesh(an Indian state in the north east) as its territory,which was a very big blunder.
When i said respect,i meant China should stop supplying arms to the terrorist groups which attack India so often.China has been notoriously disturbing the regional peace.
Nations are reassured by the reasonable stance and behaviour of others, not rhetoric. Laying poorly clarified claims to most of the waters in the South China Sea and attempting to coerce others to submit to these claims ....is by no means reasonable.
The only way China can reassure its neighbours is to bring its claims in conformity with UN law of seas and international law of border.China should be prepared to negotiate in good faith the limits of the disputed areas.

There is no evidence of China supporting terrorist activities on Indian soil.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Umm, if china was fighting for china in that war, that was not called proxy war....

You can say the Korean War is a proxy war as you can interpret it as Soviet Russia and US fighting a war using N and S Korea.

Unless china is fighting for some one else's interest, that was a regional conflict, not proxy...

The Russo-Georgian war in 2008 was also a proxy war between USA and Russia, but Russia itself was directly involved.

So the possible war between China and Japan in 2014 will also be similar, but China will be directly involved.

 

[Levina]

There is no evidence of China supporting terrorist activities on Indian soil.

After RIC meeting, China backs Pak on terror - The Hindu

Beijing Mind Behind Pak Terrorism -- Dr. Rakesh Datta

Terrorist Sponsors: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China | Cato Institute

China follows Pakistan, unites terrorists to attack India? - News Oneindia

 

[jhungary]

The Russo-Georgian war in 2008 was also a proxy war between USA and Russia, but Russia itself was directly involved.

So the possible war between China and Japan in 2014 will also be similar, but China will be directly involved.

Actually no, you forgot it was Ossetia who started the war, it was a proxy war back then, but Russia simply replace Ossetia when the war got ugly for them, so when Russia got involved directly, it ceased to be a proxy war

Same thing as US via-a-via Japan, if US directly involve and resulting US fighting Chinese. It will be a direct engagement

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian–Ossetian_conflict

 

[j20dragon]

I quoted this yesterday too....that very recently China had shown Arunachal pradesh(an Indian state in the north east) as its territory,which was a very big blunder.
When i said respect,i meant China should stop supplying arms to the terrorist groups which attack India so often.China has been notoriously disturbing the regional peace.
Nations are reassured by the reasonable stance and behaviour of others, not rhetoric. Laying poorly clarified claims to most of the waters in the South China Sea and attempting to coerce others to submit to these claims ....is by no means reasonable.
The only way China can reassure its neighbours is to bring its claims in conformity with UN law of seas and international law of border.China should be prepared to negotiate in good faith the limits of the disputed areas.

What make you believe Aruachal pradesh is an Indian territory and not part of Tibet? The local people of Aruachal pradesh is the tribe of tibeto-burman who resemble more to Chinese than to Indian. But I will say this, we accept that it is a dispute and thus only claim a small portion that belongs to Tibet because if you understand Indian history, you know India invaded and annexed many surrounding non-traditional states. Unlike Tibet, it was part of Qing territorial proper and we had legal right to enforce our law over it. And it was recognized by all power in the 20th century.

Which terrorist group and when did we arm the terrorist group? Are you mistaken that terrorist groups can smuggle weapons from the government that bought our weapons? It is not our fault if the weapons fall into the hand of terrorist if the government that bought our weapons did not regulated it. It is not our responsibility to manage the weapon once the weapon is sold to a foreign entity.

You must forget that we always aim for India and Pakistan to make peace but it was your decision whether to accept our invitation and proposal. We have no power to disturb regional peace if you and your neighbors want it. In fact, it would be one less problem for us to dealt with.

Okay.. you are talking about the 9-dotted line, am I right? Do you understand that we never oppose any states freedom to navigate or fish within that 9-dotted line? It was a strategic claim in which for "strategic reason", just as the US would not ratify UNCLOS, to keep the claim ambiguous for national interest.

You talk of settling dispute in international law but who will accept it if they fail to win the case? Why don't India and Pakistan settle their border dispute under UN law? If you can answer that question, you will understand why we choose not to, but instead to jointly developed the area together and shield the dispute for the time being.

Once again, you cannot be confused with what we claim and what action we actually put forward. For a big country as we are, the power we have, accepting small states demand is equivalent of having no power at all.

 

[Levina]

I agree to most of what you said except this.

What make you believe Aruachal pradesh is an Indian territory and not part of Tibet? The local people of Aruachal pradesh is the tribe of tibeto-burman who resemble more to Chinese than to Indian. But I will say this, we accept that it is a dispute and thus only claim a small portion that belongs to Tibet because if you understand Indian history, you know India invaded and annexed many surrounding non-traditional states. Unlike Tibet, it was part of Qing territorial proper and we had legal right to enforce our law over it. And it was recognized by all power in the 20th century.

You can not be serious.Are you???
Come on the south Indians resemble Sri lankans and many Sri Lankan's had migrated to India and vice versa so should south India be declared a part of Sri Lanka.That doesnt make sense.
Here we are talking about the international borders which have to be respected.
The Tibetan and British representatives at a conference in 1913-1914 had agreed to the McMohan line and Tibet ceded Twang and other Tibetan areas to the British Empire.With the collapse of Chinese power in Tibet the line had no serious challenges as Tibet had signed the convention therefore it was forgotten.....but China hasnt given up on it still.

I dont want to potray China as a pro terrorism country,but its definitely not in friendly terms with most of its neighboring countries or atleast the ones with substantial economy.

 

[j20dragon]

I agree to most of what you said except this.


You can not be serious.Are you???
Come on the south Indians resemble Sri lankans and many Sri Lankan's had migrated to India and vice versa so should south India be declared a part of Sri Lanka.That doesnt make sense.
Here we are talking about the international borders which have to be respected.
The Tibetan and British representatives at a conference in 1913-1914 had agreed to the McMohan line and Tibet ceded Twang and other Tibetan areas to the British Empire.With the collapse of Chinese power in Tibet the line had no serious challenges as Tibet had signed the convention therefore it was forgotten.....but China hasnt given up on it still.

I dont want to potray China as a pro terrorism country,but its definitely not in friendly terms with most of its neighboring countries or atleast the ones with substantial economy.

If you are going to bring up the 1913-1914, then you better read history of that period to understand the sovereignty and legality of Tibet. I give you an example. Let say you own a house and you are away, you have your maid to take care of the house in the meantime. A tall white British landlord came and made an offer, this maid signs an agreement with the tall white British to cede over Tibetan areas. If you are the owner, are you legally bind by this agreement signed by your maid? If you want to talk about Tibet as a sovereignty or a territorial mark of Qing Govt, then again read the history of it!

No one has friendly relation with its neighbors, a fact you always fail to talk about. Did India have friendly relation with any of its neighbors? With that said, with so many tiny islands scatter around the ocean, there will be dispute and disagreement.

 

[Levina]

Lol

So our discussion takes us nowhere.I guess the britishers left enough sparks to ignite a fire decades later.

No one has friendly relation with its neighbors, a fact you always fail to talk about.With that said, with so many tiny islands scatter around the ocean, there will be dispute and disagreement.

Then the only solution that i see is for China and India to forget the past.Mend the relations.
But how practical is that?
With Chinese army beefed up near borders,India does get intimidated.

 

[j20dragon]

Lol

So our discussion takes us nowhere.I guess the britishers left enough sparks to ignite a fire decades later.


Then the only solution that i see is for China and India to forget the past.Mend the relations.
But how practical is that?
With Chinese army beefed up near borders,India does get intimidated.

We already "know" the leftover from colonial power of the 20th century will left a big question mark of "tension" in the future. This is why in 1970s, our leader approach Japan with the idea of "shielding dispute and let future generation resolve the issue" for however long that may be but keep the status quo intact. Except the Japanese is trying to break this unwritten promise by nationalizing a dispute island. So why are the world blame us for the strong reaction? can you explain to me why?

Yessssssssssssssss. In fact, we have offer the settle the area dispute once and for all in 1960s but Nehru decided against it. And thus the Nehru's "Forward Policy" led to a war in 1962 and eventually halt all settle talks. I bet you didn't know this!

You do not need to be intimidated and fearful. We are a force of peace. We always were. During the high of our military from our ancient dynasty, we always mingled in our own business and never intent to wander out to colonize other states. Have you heard of Zheng He's naval expedition? He wandered very far, far to Africa and did nothing but bring exchange of good and brought back animals. This is during period we have the best navy in the world, a very different policy and distinction from the Western colonial powers whose intention is to wander out to enslave and colonize the world population.

 

[Audio]

He wandered very far, far to Africa and did nothing but bring exchange of good and brought back animals.

lol, yeah, that and collecting tribute from everywhere they went and an occasional installment of a puppet like it happened in Sri Lanka.

 

[Levina]

Yessssssssssssssss. In fact, we have offer the settle the area dispute once and for all in 1960s but Nehru decided against it. And thus the Nehru's "Forward Policy" led to a war in 1962 and eventually halt all settle talks. I bet you didn't know this!

Honestly speaking...NO..i didnt know much about it.But i do know of how Sardar Patel has warned Nehru of a war with China.But the ever optimistic Nehru dismisses it saying"It was practically impossible for China".
Well i think britishers should have taken Nehru along with them.

Have you heard of Zheng He's naval expedition? He wandered very far, far to Africa and did nothing but bring exchange of good and brought back animals. This is during period we have the best navy in the world, a very different policy and distinction from the Western colonial powers whose intention is to wander out to enslave and colonize the world population.

Now i know...



But when i googled about him i read at many places that his voyages were not even mentioned in many of the texts and history gave him very little importance till now.This is what i read on wikipedia

"
Imperial China
In the decades after the last voyage, Imperial officials minimized the importance of Zheng He and his expeditions throughout the many regnal and dynastic histories they compiled. The information in the Yongle and Xuande Emperors' official annals was incomplete and even erroneous; other official publications omitted them completely.[4] Although some have seen this as a conspiracy seeking to eliminate memories of the voyages,[89] it is likely that the records were dispersed throughout several departments and the expeditions – unauthorized by (and in fact, counter to) the injunctions of the dynastic founder – presented a kind of embarrassment to the dynasty.[4]"

I know that completely off topic but just the itch of curiosity.

 

[Srinivas]

We already "know" the leftover from colonial power of the 20th century will left a big question mark of "tension" in the future. This is why in 1970s, our leader approach Japan with the idea of "shielding dispute and let future generation resolve the issue" for however long that may be but keep the status quo intact. Except the Japanese is trying to break this unwritten promise by nationalizing a dispute island. So why are the world blame us for the strong reaction? can you explain to me why?

Yessssssssssssssss. In fact, we have offer the settle the area dispute once and for all in 1960s but Nehru decided against it. And thus the Nehru's "Forward Policy" led to a war in 1962 and eventually halt all settle talks. I bet you didn't know this!

You do not need to be intimidated and fearful. We are a force of peace. We always were. During the high of our military from our ancient dynasty, we always mingled in our own business and never intent to wander out to colonize other states. Have you heard of Zheng He's naval expedition? He wandered very far, far to Africa and did nothing but bring exchange of good and brought back animals. This is during period we have the best navy in the world, a very different policy and distinction from the Western colonial powers whose intention is to wander out to enslave and colonize the world population.

There is no question of discussing Arunachal Pradesh when whole of Tibet is in the occupation of Han chinese.

China of Imperial times is much smaller than what today's CCP china is and we do not recognize AP as a disputed region, any moves to make that land a disputed one like in the SCS will be met with aggression.

 

[j20dragon]

lol, yeah, that and collecting tribute from everywhere they went and an occasional installment of a puppet like it happened in Sri Lanka.

Stop lying. We also provided gold, silk in exchange for rare animal species. We did not rob of those country resources for nothing like the Western colonial power did. We wage a land war in Sri Lanka because they are hostile to Zheng He's force and we did not colonize them. Get your fact straight. Tribunal relation is not colonial relation.

Honestly speaking...NO..i didnt know much about it.But i do know of how Sardar Patel has warned Nehru of a war with China.But the ever optimistic Nehru dismisses it saying"It was practically impossible for China".
Well i think britishers should have taken Nehru along with them.

Now i know...

But when i googled about him i read at many places that his voyages were not even mentioned in many of the texts and history gave him very little importance till now.This is what i read on wikipedia

"
Imperial China
In the decades after the last voyage, Imperial officials minimized the importance of Zheng He and his expeditions throughout the many regnal and dynastic histories they compiled. The information in the Yongle and Xuande Emperors' official annals was incomplete and even erroneous; other official publications omitted them completely.[4] Although some have seen this as a conspiracy seeking to eliminate memories of the voyages,[89] it is likely that the records were dispersed throughout several departments and the expeditions – unauthorized by (and in fact, counter to) the injunctions of the dynastic founder – presented a kind of embarrassment to the dynasty.[4]"

I know that completely off topic but just the itch of curiosity.

Zheng He story was minimized and halt for economic, political, and imperial royal family infighting secret. To explain fully to you will take long but I will give you a general idea.

Economic reason:
The voyages caused tremendous depletion to the imperial treasury. Imagine you exchange all valuable items like silk, silver, and gold and you brought back only animals and rare items. The cost is too expensive and little value is added to the imperial court. Had we colonize the countries like the West did, then it can become profitable if we extract the resources forcefully but we never intent for that.

Political reason:
Zheng He was a eunuch when he was taken to the court as a youngster. In the Ming Dynasty, the eunuch faction is very powerful and is sometime favored over the Confucian bureaucratic faction by the emperor, led to fighting between two imperial factions. After Hongxi Emperor halt all voyages, the confucian bureaucratic faction won a favor victory over the eunuch faction. Thus after Zheng He's death, his faction is largely marginalized and all records of Zheng He is kept secret as not to glorify Zheng He, a pro-enuuch.

Imperial Royal Family infighting:
Zheng He is a favorite of Yongle Emperor who is an uncle of Jianwen Emperor (2nd emperor of Ming). Yongle forcefully usurp the throne from his newphew Jianwen Emperor. He escaped and Yongle intention to use Zheng He's voyage is to track him down and capture him. It was an embarrassment for Yongle because it's taboo to usurp the emperor throne and the fact they didn't capture him. To hide this, the successor of Yongle, his son, Hongxi, removed record of the voyage because initially the voyage is about capturing Jianwen Emperor. The court don't want the succeeding court to know this so he is not being glorified.

All those three reasons clarified enough for you?

There is no question of discussing Arunachal Pradesh when whole of Tibet is in the occupation of Han chinese.

China of Imperial times is much smaller than what today's CCP china is and we do not recognize AP as a disputed region, any moves to make that land a disputed one like in the SCS will be met with aggression.

Tibet is inherently a part of our territory. No amount of fabrication, threat, lie will change this. You can bet on it.