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Turkish lobby in Pakistan backs T-129 blindly that is why we selected t129 despite of no engines availablity. Turkish news sources itself reported that Pakistan has given them one more year to sort out engine issue so if Turkey cannot produce its engine for us by the end this year, than we will probably opt for Z10s especially when Indian Apaches are already ready for deliver. T129s and Zulus are quickly becoming distant dreams for us.
 
Z-10 is the most advanced attack helicopter available in Asia....
We need 70 Z-10s for CPEC security....
@HRK @Signalian @seven0seven @araz

Firstly, 70 x Gunships are not required for CPEC security.
Secondly, Pakistan needs more transport helicopters preferably medium, handful of heavy than Gunships.
Thirdly, AH-1Z and T-129 are capable machines. Z-10 will be bought when PAA approves.

1. For CPEC security, fire support can be provided by AH-1F/s with their armament and some basic sensors like FLIR. When 44th Light Infantry Division is commissioned, it can provide more depth to 34th LID on ground and security to installations. Navy should place a Frigate and few Corvettes. Raise a Battalion of Marines to form an outer perimeter of security, at land and at sea, through a QRF at installations and constant patrolling with coast guard. 44th LID and PN marines should be given maximum fire power in the form of exclusive weaponry such as HMGs, RR guns or Alcotan-100 launchers, sniper rifles and MRAPs for transport. If PAF can place a flight detachment of 4 x fighters, that should be able to handle future UAV incursions from west as well as checkmate un-authorized aircraft entry in Gwadar airspace.

2. Transport helicopters offer a much more suitable capability to handle many situations such as recon, surveillance and of course air assault leading to insertion of troops at unexpected locations in minimal times apart from the medical services and supply. These helicopters help control a situation much more rapidly in COIN war, Terrorist attacks, capturing key enemy leaders and even evacuation. Gunship is air artillery. It can reach an area quickly and deploy all forms of armament, but its usually called in for specialized attacks when no other option is available. Mi-35 is excellent at both roles, however it deploys effectively well in conjunction with Mi-17.

3. In WW2 around 1940, When Churchill made a phone call for getting fighter aircrafts from US President, which were paid through loan by Americans and bought by British, the US President refused to fly them over to UK, further refusing to land them on a British aircraft carrier when requested by Churchill. The US President offered that these aircrafts will be landed near US-Canada border from where British can use horses to pull fighters from USA into Canada, not even through motorized transport. The US President said he was following deal as a neutral country citing from paperwork thus limiting his options to help the British. So, whether its AH-1Z or F-16, if USA can shrug aside personal request of British PM, then Pakistan should brace all situations. Z-10 has been tested by PAA, it can only make its place into inventory if the appropriate changes have been made to it, Somehow, Pakistan seems to go with Russian, European and American engines for aircrafts and helicopters. Z-9 in PN carries a licensed version of French engine. Z-10 - its features, its weapons have been discussed thoroughly many times, its best to leave it to official statement by Military, just as in case of J-10.
 
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Firstly, 70 x Gunships are not required for CPEC security.
Secondly, Pakistan needs more transport helicopters preferably medium, handful of heavy than Gunships.
Thirdly, AH-1Z and T-129 are capable machines. Z-10 will be bought when PAA approves.

1. For CPEC security, fire support can be provided by AH-1F/s with their armament and some basic sensors like FLIR. When 44th Light Infantry Division is commissioned, it can provide more depth to 34th LID on ground and security to installations. Navy should place a Frigate and few Corvettes. Raise a Battalion of Marines to form an outer perimeter of security, at land and at sea, through a QRF at installations and constant patrolling with coast guard. 44th LID and PN marines should be given maximum fire power in the form of exclusive weaponry such as HMGs, RR guns or Alcotan-100 launchers, sniper rifles and MRAPs for transport. If PAF can place a flight detachment of 4 x fighters, that should be able to handle future UAV incursions from west as well as checkmate un-authorized aircraft entry in Gwadar airspace.

2. Transport helicopters offer a much more suitable capability to handle many situations such as recon, surveillance and of course air assault leading to insertion of troops at unexpected locations in minimal times apart from the medical services and supply. These helicopters help control a situation much more rapidly in COIN war, Terrorist attacks, capturing key enemy leaders and even evacuation. Gunship is air artillery. It can reach an area and deploy all forms of armament, but its usually called in for specialized attacks when no other option is available. Mi-35 is excellent at both roles, however it deploys effectively well in conjunction with Mi-17.

3. In WW2 around 1940, When Churchill made a phone call for getting fighter aircrafts from US President, which were paid through loan by Americans and bought by British, the US President refused to fly them over to UK, further refusing to land them on a British aircraft carrier when requested by Churchill. The US President offered that these aircrafts will be landed near US-Canada border from where British can use horses to pull fighters from USA into Canada, not even through motorized transport. The US President said he was following deal as a neutral country citing from paperwork thus limiting his options to help the British. So, whether its AH-1Z or F-16, if USA can shrug aside personal request of British PM, then Pakistan should brace all situations. Z-10 has been tested by PAA, it can only make its place into inventory if the appropriate changes have been made to it, Somehow, Pakistan seems to go with Russian, European and American engines for aircrafts and helicopters. Z-9 in PN carries a licensed version of French engine. Z-10 - its features, its weapons have been discussed thoroughly many times, its best to leave it to official statement by Military, just as in case of J-10.

Brother

Only problem is we need to fill a gap, any possibility PAA thought about leasing them short term in case a conflict arises with India? Until Turkish Engine issue is resolved.

Problem I have noticed with Turkish and Chinese they’ll develop everything except starting with engine and the snag always comes from this part one would think Turk/Chinese would probably try and collaborate together.

About your point No 1, PAF can provide air craft, but I believe it’s time the Navy establishes a proper Air Force of its own and independent in planning than relying on PAF as it self would be tied down due to its size vis a vis IAF. IN has their carrier to back its fleet with ACs in a conflict and we need to do the same and I believe this to be more vital as well along with boosting the surface fleet count.

In previous conflicts PN suffered because PAF had complete control of ACs and their missions came 1st hampering our Navy at critical points of conflict. Hence theirs always been some bad mood between these two branches.
 
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Brother

Only problem is we need to fill a gap, any possibility PAA thought about leasing them short term in case a conflict arises with India? Until Turkish Engine issue is resolved.

Problem I have noticed with Turkish and Chinese they’ll develop everything except starting with engine and the snag always comes from this part one would think Turk/Chinese would probably try and collaborate together.
Chinese has no problem for gunship turboshaft... The required WZ-16 turboshaft enter service and Chinese has enough funds and expertise to go alone for more powerful turboshaft. Even our heavy Z-20 enter service

https://www.safran-helicopter-engin...loped-aero-engine-be-certified-china-20191010
 
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Brother

Only problem is we need to fill a gap, any possibility PAA thought about leasing them short term in case a conflict arises with India? Until Turkish Engine issue is resolved.

Problem I have noticed with Turkish and Chinese they’ll develop everything except starting with engine and the snag always comes from this part one would think Turk/Chinese would probably try and collaborate together.

About your point No 1, PAF can provide air craft, but I believe it’s time the Navy establishes a proper Air Force of its own and independent in planning than relying on PAF as it self would be tied down due to its size vis a vis IAF. IN has their carrier to back its fleet with ACs in a conflict and we need to do the same and I believe this to be more vital as well along with boosting the surface fleet count.

In previous conflicts PN suffered because PAF had complete control of ACs and their missions came 1st hampering our Navy at critical points of conflict. Hence theirs always been some bad mood between these two branches.
PAA needs gunships for WOT currently, AH-1F/S lacks at few places. If war with india starts, then Pakistan can request for Z-10.

Naval aviation not the topic for this thread, we can discuss it elsewhere.
 
Turkish lobby in Pakistan backs T-129 blindly that is why we selected t129 despite of no engines availablity.

It has nothing to do with lobby activities but performance of choppers. Atak performed way better than Chinese z-10 in almost all field so PA selected T-129 against Z-10. Noone could predict US will temporise the approval period in favor of own politic benefits. In recent day, TAI announced that We may get approval in following 2 months since there are some solid advancements in negotiations.

Beside, Engine issue is not an simple area to get an esy score. Look even a big country like China uses French expertise to develop a reliable turboshaft generating a power ratio of 1700-2000hp. I mean What Chinese call as WZ-16 engine is actually a French Ardiden-3C. In this situation, Turkiye is developing a domestic turboshaft generating 1500hp power without requesting help from other states and We will introduce a full scale turboshaft that will be ready to make 6ton class T-625 fly in this year. Furthermore, A new turboshaft engine that will generate 3000hp power is also being developed at present. To underline the importance of new 3000hp program; When Core engine is converted into a working turbofan in near future, Turkiye will have gained an engine with an average thrust ratio around 18000lbf. We need time and money to convert these efforts into working products. Engine issues are the backbone of any aerial platform and the countries developing these platforms depend on a few sources If they don’t have their own. Russia is an alternative supplier indeed but Overhaul and overall life cycle periods of their gas turbine engines can not even come close to what US achieves. It is because of the their poor tech level at metallurgy and cooling systems in turbine blades.
 
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its only as good as its outer look.
the real deal was that it actually performed in different altitudes and weather conditions thats where its performance didnt math its looks it failed to deliver during the trials but Chinese took a lot of experience back with them
That's worst part of us,we should never allow dated and result of trials into anyone's hand.That gives a lot of insight into our working,needs and our strategies for solving military issues.
 
Firstly, 70 x Gunships are not required for CPEC security.
Secondly, Pakistan needs more transport helicopters preferably medium, handful of heavy than Gunships.
Thirdly, AH-1Z and T-129 are capable machines. Z-10 will be bought when PAA approves.

1. For CPEC security, fire support can be provided by AH-1F/s with their armament and some basic sensors like FLIR. When 44th Light Infantry Division is commissioned, it can provide more depth to 34th LID on ground and security to installations. Navy should place a Frigate and few Corvettes. Raise a Battalion of Marines to form an outer perimeter of security, at land and at sea, through a QRF at installations and constant patrolling with coast guard. 44th LID and PN marines should be given maximum fire power in the form of exclusive weaponry such as HMGs, RR guns or Alcotan-100 launchers, sniper rifles and MRAPs for transport. If PAF can place a flight detachment of 4 x fighters, that should be able to handle future UAV incursions from west as well as checkmate un-authorized aircraft entry in Gwadar airspace.

2. Transport helicopters offer a much more suitable capability to handle many situations such as recon, surveillance and of course air assault leading to insertion of troops at unexpected locations in minimal times apart from the medical services and supply. These helicopters help control a situation much more rapidly in COIN war, Terrorist attacks, capturing key enemy leaders and even evacuation. Gunship is air artillery. It can reach an area quickly and deploy all forms of armament, but its usually called in for specialized attacks when no other option is available. Mi-35 is excellent at both roles, however it deploys effectively well in conjunction with Mi-17.

3. In WW2 around 1940, When Churchill made a phone call for getting fighter aircrafts from US President, which were paid through loan by Americans and bought by British, the US President refused to fly them over to UK, further refusing to land them on a British aircraft carrier when requested by Churchill. The US President offered that these aircrafts will be landed near US-Canada border from where British can use horses to pull fighters from USA into Canada, not even through motorized transport. The US President said he was following deal as a neutral country citing from paperwork thus limiting his options to help the British. So, whether its AH-1Z or F-16, if USA can shrug aside personal request of British PM, then Pakistan should brace all situations. Z-10 has been tested by PAA, it can only make its place into inventory if the appropriate changes have been made to it, Somehow, Pakistan seems to go with Russian, European and American engines for aircrafts and helicopters. Z-9 in PN carries a licensed version of French engine. Z-10 - its features, its weapons have been discussed thoroughly many times, its best to leave it to official statement by Military, just as in case of J-10.
AH-1 are nearly absolute.... Aren't they?
Z-10 or attack helicopter are required to stop the cold doctrine of India as these attack helicopters are used effectively against tanks....
India has 1600+ T-90s and 464 on fresh order.....
Therefore, to neutralize that number of tanks we need attack helicopter the one reason why Pakistan selected T129 is the hell fire missile.....?
 
AH-1 are nearly absolute.... Aren't they?
Z-10 or attack helicopter are required to stop the cold doctrine of India as these attack helicopters are used effectively against tanks....
India has 1600+ T-90s and 464 on fresh order.....
Therefore, to neutralize that number of tanks we need attack helicopter the one reason why Pakistan selected T129 is the hell fire missile.....?
you mean AH-1 F/S are obsolete ? how?

TOW are still in use

so is HJ-8 green arrow
 
I mean What Chinese call as WZ-16 engine is actually a French Ardiden-3C.
Maybe you should do a little bit more of digging, WZ–16 is for Z15 only, China is still under weapon embargo by the west, thus this is never an option for PLA.
 
Look even a big country like China uses French expertise to develop a reliable turboshaft generating a power ratio of 1700-2000hp. I mean What Chinese call as WZ-16 engine is actually a French Ardiden-3C.
WZ-16 is just a France-China developed civil engine (about 1600kW) for AC352 helicopter (about 7.5 tons), and PLA is never interested in it.
China has successfully developed WZ-10 engine (about 2000kW) for Z-20 helicopter (about 10 tons).
 
WZ-16 is just a France-China developed civil engine (about 1600kW) for AC352 helicopter (about 7.5 tons), and PLA is never interested in it.
China has successfully developed WZ-10 engine (about 2000kW) for Z-20 helicopter (about 10 tons).


Thx for the info. Do you have a source introducing TAC figure of Chinese turboshaft engine ?
 

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