I realise that. Just that we have not yet discussed as such, any such ground-based jamming assets that PAF / or PA AD employs. Koral is coming to mind here, for obvious reasons. =)
Changing Dynamics of Air Warfare in South Asia
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Tank131
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Oh tye asinine turns this thread has taken is remarkable.
Can we get on to the point which is what things have occurred since the 26th/27th events. The major thing i would take away is that India wanted to test capabilities (theirs amd paks) and were caught completely blindsided. They had severely overestimated their own capabilities and underestimated those of PAF. They learned thst they arr woefully undertrained in a2g strike with sows and woefully undertrained in a2a and heavy EW environments whereas PAF was well trained in all the above. Additionally PAF learned the value of net centric warfare whereas iaf had their scopes jammed and no-one knew what was happening.
However do not think IAF will take that lying down. While PAF has been training multiple times a year against USAF, NATO, China and Arabs in a multitude of combat scenarios and learning about the tactics used in modern combat, i havent seen the same robust participation by IAF (though i may be mistaken). That likely will change. Additionally IAF will seek integration of Meteor asap for Rafale and M2Ks so they will not have the severe disadvantage in munitions that IAF had.
PAKISTAN also realized the issue with having no FOB for PAF within AK when IAF was able to penetrate deep into AJK to launch the strikes and furthermore turned and escaped without ever being targeted by PAF fighters or SAMs. That needs to be rectified immediately, even if you created a FOB just outside the FOB and positioned SAMs inside AJK.
Can we get on to the point which is what things have occurred since the 26th/27th events. The major thing i would take away is that India wanted to test capabilities (theirs amd paks) and were caught completely blindsided. They had severely overestimated their own capabilities and underestimated those of PAF. They learned thst they arr woefully undertrained in a2g strike with sows and woefully undertrained in a2a and heavy EW environments whereas PAF was well trained in all the above. Additionally PAF learned the value of net centric warfare whereas iaf had their scopes jammed and no-one knew what was happening.
However do not think IAF will take that lying down. While PAF has been training multiple times a year against USAF, NATO, China and Arabs in a multitude of combat scenarios and learning about the tactics used in modern combat, i havent seen the same robust participation by IAF (though i may be mistaken). That likely will change. Additionally IAF will seek integration of Meteor asap for Rafale and M2Ks so they will not have the severe disadvantage in munitions that IAF had.
PAKISTAN also realized the issue with having no FOB for PAF within AK when IAF was able to penetrate deep into AJK to launch the strikes and furthermore turned and escaped without ever being targeted by PAF fighters or SAMs. That needs to be rectified immediately, even if you created a FOB just outside the FOB and positioned SAMs inside AJK.
HRK
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Any airport in AJK would be under the ground firing range of India so not feasible, but alternatively we could have an Airbase in Hazara Division of KPK or should develop facilities in Saidu Sharif Airport for PAF
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Now why did I bring out these examples---. It is for you to understand that the american public is watching it---all of it---.
American public hates the indians---. They know that they have stolen american jobs---and don't forget---.
I have been telling you guys---learn about the american---learn how and what they think---bit-ching and moaning at what they do against you won't help---.
Americans love an under dog---they love to see the little guy beat up the big guy---. The USAF loves Paf beating the SU30---. I am pretty sure there were congratulatory rounds of drinks passed around at pilots gatherings at the air bases---.
If you want to succeed like israel---then act like israel---.
When you don't earn about how the US thinks and acts---then how can you retaliate against india---?
Tank131
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Whatever the solution, it took too long for the PAF to respond to such a significant incursion. Some type of interception must be started when IAF gets within few km of the boarder, even if that is tracking/targeting from the ground (SAMs). I suspect there is a lack of any military presence beyond ground troops on order to keep things more politically correct for GoP. But what if Muzaffarabad had been the target, you would not be able to respond fast enough to protect it.
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I believe this is the reason a new JF-17 squadron is planned at Chaklala - ideal location for defence of Azad Kashmir.
Skardu is FOB further north.
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Cake(s) was/were presented on that day
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What Pakistan needs is more modern medium and long range SAM coverage in addition to CAPS. CAPs are damn expensive, and you ideally only want to do them when you need them. Something like the HQ-9 series of SAMs should be procured and based in AJK, so that if an "available" window of opportunity arises through diversionary tactics to thin out PAF lines of defence, you have the fallback of a SAM network as a backstop.
India has more planes that PAF, and will alway be able to thin out PAF lines and penetrate Pakistani airspace. SAMs will help to mitigate that.
This is what the fighter jocks of PAF need to realise, and stop vetoing the procurement of long range SAM systems...
HRK
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Bro keep this thing out of mind that India or Pakistan Air Defense is impenetrable history on repeated basis prove this due to close proximity one can enter into the air space of other country so here what should we give importance is the reaction time, which even if is good enough there are chances of it turnout little too late to response in some scenario as in the case of Balakot and you rightly noted it ....
We must go for SAM coverage in addition to CAP ....
Anything flying in AJK would get locked by IAF jet and SAM I mean it's just a strip of land which in widest stretch is just 60+ KM and at some place is narrow upto 10KM
Yaap an ideal place as all the existing facilities are already in place, but we should keep Saidu Sharif Airport as future option it is almost in center of Peshawar, PAF base Minhas, Islamabad and Muzaffarabad City as its distance vary from 90-120 km from all these cities and air bases and from Gilgit in Northern Area and from Srinagar it is situated within 240 Km ....
150 and 100 CAP from Saidu Sharif and Chaklala would give almost full coverage to AJK and would complement each other nicely just have look at screenshot below
Tank131
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Oh i 100% agree with everything you said. But that is my rational for trying to build a FOB in or just outside AJK (Outside seems more viable). Despite Indian ability to get missile lock im sure PAF performs CAP missions over AJK, so i think the reason to keep major asset out of AJK is political. With that said if there is no airbase, as you and i point out, there needs to be some type of SAM presence. The IAF was over AJK for over 12-15min unharrassed. Even a SPADA2000 would have been something to challenge the incursion. It scrambles the strike package and diverts attention at the very least, allowing air assets from PAF time to get into the theater. There needs to be faster reaction time as you point out and better air defense. Right now, there a0pears to be none over AJK.
That leads me to a question regarding the acquisition of SAMs that perhaps one of our members here can shed light on. We have been hearing for nearly 10 years that PAF was looking at HQ-9 but nothing has materialized. What is the major hurdle for acquiring long range SAMs. Is it financing (doesnt seem likely given the significant procurement made by airforce, navy, army over last few years)? Is it mentality (leaders dont think long range SAMs have much benefit)? Or is it capability or availability of the weapons?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa), @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar @messiach @Rafi @Windjammer @MastanKhan
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Chak Bamu
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Someone missed their history lessons. If I go on to rebuff, it would be a massive OT. Admiral Perry's soul would be restless if it knew what you wrote.
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1.Old Islamabad Airport ( now with PAF so Airbase ) , 2. Swat Saidu Sharif Airport ( civilian till now ) , 3. Skardu Airbase are best options to defend AJK , Hazara n GB untill new FOB develops . I agree with u we should build it in Hazara ( Hazara is Close to AJK , Isb , GB ) not in AJK ( because its v close to Indian occupied Kashmir ) .
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IAF had the initiative. They acted on their PM's orders. PAF was in reactive mode. A calibrated response was the most appropriate one & it did work in Pakistan's favor.
I must say, though, that MK does have a point when he says that in the immediate aftermath of the attack PAF had a small window within which retaliation could be well-justified. However, exploiting it would have been rash. IAF was on high alert and only when they lowered the alert level did PAF hit them hard. So, looks like PAF decided to avoid a trap and hit at the time & with the method of their own choosing.
The context of the whole thing was the upcoming Indian elections. Modi's BJP won it handily. 27 Feb was not a major issue. Had their been a wider conflict BJP leadership would have climbed the escalation ladder out of its political necessity. The end-goal of winning Indian elections would have been achieved regardless. So, in wider context, the whole skirmish was a non-issue & any escalation would have been to Pakistan's disadvantage. PAF could not have prevented anything irrespective of how many IAF jets had fallen. It merely showed its operational preparedness to thwart any other adventures in near future. The lessons learned by IAF would just be as applicable if a higher number of jets had fallen. IAF would fix the gaps, and recover morale regardless of whether 2 planes fell or 4. In context, there would be little difference.
MK does not quite get it. He does not want to get it. His thinking revolves around PAF & airwar and he ignores much else in his analysis. Should someone point at Pakistan's economy, or political dimension of conflict, he gets flustered and goes on diatribe against the poster. For this reason he is on many senior members' ignore lists. Earlier in the thread he called someone an enemy (of Pakistan) and the TT to whom it was addressed did not respond. Why? Because MK is on his ignore list and rightly so.
Pakistan can not afford open war & this is not a secret. Anyone who wishes for war is an enemy even if an unwitting one. PAF's action ensures that the enemy knows that the cost of aggression would be high, and in the end, this is what matters.
@Signalian has described his view of 5G war which, in his view, involves 5th 6th 7th... nth column within Pakistan. It is necessary to debunk this view. I am among those who want PA to stay within bounds of its professional duties and not overstep into civilian domain. I want PA to accept civilians as bosses and follow orders instead of issuing policy statements & trying to make foreign policy. This has been the path to ruin for Pakistan in many ways. This does not make me any less of a patriot; and in fact makes me more so. All the talk of 5 6 7 ... N Generation warfare is just security-centered paranoia. There are added dimensions of conflict in cyberspace, social media, & via fake news generation. We saw all that in the aftermath of 27th Feb. But the world was not fooled. Rather Indians showed themselves to be fools for bringing up all sorts of improbable babble. Description of the new dimensions of warfare as something internal to Pakistan is the exact opposite of what is needed. The state may wish to be stronger, but the nation would pay the price. Demagogues and vested interests would want to create paranoia, but that would end up making the country weaker and less safe, as security apparatus amasses more power and uses more resources. Any view that leads the nation down this rabbit hole must be countered & opposed simply on grounds of plain common sense.
I must say, though, that MK does have a point when he says that in the immediate aftermath of the attack PAF had a small window within which retaliation could be well-justified. However, exploiting it would have been rash. IAF was on high alert and only when they lowered the alert level did PAF hit them hard. So, looks like PAF decided to avoid a trap and hit at the time & with the method of their own choosing.
The context of the whole thing was the upcoming Indian elections. Modi's BJP won it handily. 27 Feb was not a major issue. Had their been a wider conflict BJP leadership would have climbed the escalation ladder out of its political necessity. The end-goal of winning Indian elections would have been achieved regardless. So, in wider context, the whole skirmish was a non-issue & any escalation would have been to Pakistan's disadvantage. PAF could not have prevented anything irrespective of how many IAF jets had fallen. It merely showed its operational preparedness to thwart any other adventures in near future. The lessons learned by IAF would just be as applicable if a higher number of jets had fallen. IAF would fix the gaps, and recover morale regardless of whether 2 planes fell or 4. In context, there would be little difference.
MK does not quite get it. He does not want to get it. His thinking revolves around PAF & airwar and he ignores much else in his analysis. Should someone point at Pakistan's economy, or political dimension of conflict, he gets flustered and goes on diatribe against the poster. For this reason he is on many senior members' ignore lists. Earlier in the thread he called someone an enemy (of Pakistan) and the TT to whom it was addressed did not respond. Why? Because MK is on his ignore list and rightly so.
Pakistan can not afford open war & this is not a secret. Anyone who wishes for war is an enemy even if an unwitting one. PAF's action ensures that the enemy knows that the cost of aggression would be high, and in the end, this is what matters.
@Signalian has described his view of 5G war which, in his view, involves 5th 6th 7th... nth column within Pakistan. It is necessary to debunk this view. I am among those who want PA to stay within bounds of its professional duties and not overstep into civilian domain. I want PA to accept civilians as bosses and follow orders instead of issuing policy statements & trying to make foreign policy. This has been the path to ruin for Pakistan in many ways. This does not make me any less of a patriot; and in fact makes me more so. All the talk of 5 6 7 ... N Generation warfare is just security-centered paranoia. There are added dimensions of conflict in cyberspace, social media, & via fake news generation. We saw all that in the aftermath of 27th Feb. But the world was not fooled. Rather Indians showed themselves to be fools for bringing up all sorts of improbable babble. Description of the new dimensions of warfare as something internal to Pakistan is the exact opposite of what is needed. The state may wish to be stronger, but the nation would pay the price. Demagogues and vested interests would want to create paranoia, but that would end up making the country weaker and less safe, as security apparatus amasses more power and uses more resources. Any view that leads the nation down this rabbit hole must be countered & opposed simply on grounds of plain common sense.
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