Change is happening: Kashimiri students, first time ever, sing Pakistani

[KRAIT]

No one cares what you think , you were Hindu first now you are Muslim. So before transition,you followed Hinduism and now Islam. Good for you. You got best from both the religion. But it doesn't mean all Muslims thinks your way especially those who are born Muslims.

You don't like India. You hate its people, its govt. its armed forces and god knows what. So your statement can't be applied here. Don't put yourself in the category of our beloved Muslim brothers who always thinks of India first. Even Sania Mirza consider herself as Indian first as she still plays for India, so is Shabana Azmi, list is too long. One can't compare you with them if we are comparing person to person.


I don't care what people of other nations thinks, all I know is Muslim in India always considered them Indian first. You are just a outlier in a concentrated data.

Give me a research article or data with thousands of case studies.

 

[ajtr]

No one cares what you think , you were Hindu first now you are Muslim. So before transition,you followed Hinduism and now Islam. Good for you. You got best from both the religion. But it doesn't mean all Muslims thinks your way especially those who are born Muslims.

Does it trouble you that i get best of both religions?

I think answer to the question muslim first or indian first you might have got during the protests on the mumbai roads when those amar jawans were smashed.

You don't like India. You hate its people, its govt. its armed forces and god knows what. So your statement can't be applied here. Don't put yourself in the category of our beloved Muslim brothers who always thinks of India first. Even Sania Mirza consider herself as Indian first as she still plays for India, so is Shabana Azmi, list is too long. One can't compare you with them if we are comparing person to person.

And who are you to proclaim all this?
As for sania sabana did you ask that question to both?
Even i hold the indian passport like them.

I don't care what people of other nations thinks, all I know is Muslim in India always considered them Indian first. You are just a outlier in a concentrated data.

Give me a research article or data with thousands of case studies.

Religion is not your research paper.And as for Islam you are not worth it.

 

[Jackdaws]

Why were dogra forces commiting kashmiri genocide? killing 2.7 lac kashmiris and looting burning villages tht could be seen from murree hills and kashmiri refugees were coming to jehlum valley in Pakistan?while ww2 veteran from kashmir were requesting GoP for help.

Really? Do you have any source of this information? In 10 weeks between August '47 and October'47 that all of this happened?

 

[KRAIT]

I got best from what I wanted. If one finds knowledge from one religion, what's the problem. I am content with it.

Those rioters are people like you who disrespect Indian soldiers. So even they are opposed by rest of the Muslims too.

I can proclaim considering your posts about India and its people. After all we select these same elite class that rules and oppress people whom you advocate as freedom fighters. You have proved this point yourself.

Did you asked each and every Muslim in India when you say ALL Muslims in India consider themselves Muslim first ? So your argument that whether I asked them or not doesn't hold. Actions speak louder than words, I gave perfect example of Saniza Mirza.

Religion is not my research paper but I do study propagation of idea in a dynamic population. Remember a religion is something that depends on three factors:

1. Individual choice: Its called coefficient of innovation sometime. One person observes and read then change to some religion.
Media or External factors: One person reads books, surf internet and gets to know about certain religion, find it better and hence converts.

2. Word Of Mouth. One person listens to another person from a certain religion, finds other person's religion better and convert.

3. Social influence. One preson observes the growing number of same religion people in a society. It exerts pressure on them to convert.

You want me to quote research article.

I have published research articles in International journals on Spread of new ideas(Other Religion A will be new for the person following B religion) in a dynamic population (India is a dynamic population.) and effect of external influences, word of mouth and social influences.

I have also taken birth and death rate, immigration and emigration of population of other religion and its effect in spreading of an idea or Religion in our case.

All the journals are peer reviewed and over 2 impact factor. So yeah, I know more about the process.

 

[Ticker]

When Hindutvadi laden Indians proclaim that everybody in India is a Hindu, the minorities, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims etc feel that they are not accepted in India because of not accepting Hinduism as a religion.

Destruction of mosques and burning of Churches, desecration of Sikh Shrines etc exacerbate such a feeling - the refuge, only in religion and ghettization for survival.

Conversion from Hindu religion, particularly by females, raises hatred to an extent which is unfathomable.

@ajtr is a victim here for everybody to see and open their eyes.

The brave Hindu Indians here go to any length to demean her and insult her - and then say, it is not because of religion. Yet they bring in this factor one way or the other and can not hide their dispicability present in their minds.

Shame indeed.

 

[Ticker]

Really? Do you have any source of this information? In 10 weeks between August '47 and October'47 that all of this happened?

Yes it did. If this is not covered in history books written by Indians, it is not anybody's fault. But it has been written and quoted in books - I am sure these books are not available in India - and for a reason.

Just calculate the time period in which literally millions of Muslims had to leave their town and villages only from Indian Punjab during the independence. How many were killed mercilessly. How many mosques, which ran in tens of thousands, now remain in Indian Punjab alone.

These are facts about which we all have to open our eyes to and learn to live with, if not learn to forget.

 

[Jackdaws]

While it commendable that people state they are Indian first, and Hindu later - facts do not bear this out. There are many aspects of Hinduism which directly contradict the Indian constitution. But people stick to those aspects of Hinduism rather than the constitution - e.g.

1. Open matrimonials - even though we are not supposed to discriminate among our fellow countrymen -we do so on the basis of religion, linguistic identity, ethnicity - even skin color.

2. Discrimination against women - practiced at the societal level although expressly forbidden in the constitution.

I could go on.

Except in cases of external aggression and in cases of sport - we are always more Hindu than Indian, irrespective of what we state.

Yes it did. If this is not covered in history books written by Indians, it is not anybody's fault. But it has been written and quoted in books - I am sure these books are not available in India - and for a reason.

Just calculate the time period in which literally millions of Muslims had to leave their town and villages only from Indian Punjab during the independence. How many were killed mercilessly. How many mosques, which ran in tens of thousands, now remain in Indian Punjab alone.

These are facts about which we all have to open our eyes to and learn to live with, if not learn to forget.

I've read book across the world on this subject - in the US and in Europe. I have never come across these facts. Also, if this were true - why would Pakistan sign a standstill agreement with the Maharaja of Kashmir?

 

[KRAIT]

Kashmiri Pundits were thrown out of Kashmir to change the demography of Kashmir. People thought removing them will increase Muslim population and Hindus population reduce, which happened. Consider the birth rate of both the religion too.

What you have now is Muslim are more in percentage than when they were during Kashmiri Pundits living in Kashmir.

You can imagine the demography of the region if they weren't forced out and live as refugees.

Look at umber games. Density of population. Statistics. That's what explain the scenarios. My arguments are based on millions of people living in a region.

They thought after few decades, as Muslim population increases much more, almost 90-95 %, they will ask for election and people ill pick Pakistan as both were Muslim majority state.

 

[ajtr]

I got best from what I wanted. If one finds knowledge from one religion, what's the problem. I am content with it.

Then why do you have problem that i get the best of two and what was your real motive to dragging it?

Those rioters are people like you who disrespect Indian soldiers. So even they are opposed by rest of the Muslims too.

Sure you will even call those ladies of manipur extremists protesting in front of Army base with the banner..."Indian Army rape us"......

I can proclaim considering your posts about India and its people. After all we select these same elite class that rules and oppress people whom you advocate as freedom fighters. You have proved this point yourself.

you reminds me of dialogue in matrix where morpheus says to neo that people are so hopelessly dependent on system that they will fight you to save it .such types are not ready to be freed.

Did you asked each and every Muslim in India when you say ALL Muslims in India consider themselves Muslim first ? So your argument that whether I asked them or not doesn't hold. Actions speak louder than words, I gave perfect example of Saniza Mirza.

Sania is playing for india just coz of her professional sponsors.she has sponsors in india not pakistan.in that sense it makes even wasim as proud indian.......

Religion is not my research paper but I do study propagation of idea in a dynamic population. Remember a religion is something that depends on three factors:

1. Individual choice: Its called coefficient of innovation sometime. One person observes and read then change to some religion.
Media or External factors: One person reads books, surf internet and gets to know about certain religion, find it better and hence converts.

2. Word Of Mouth. One person listens to another person from a certain religion, finds other person's religion better and convert.

3. Social influence. One preson observes the growing number of same religion people in a society. It exerts pressure on them to convert.

You want me to quote research article.

I have published research articles in International journals on Spread of new ideas(Other Religion A will be new for the person following B religion) in a dynamic population (India is a dynamic population.) and effect of external influences, word of mouth and social influences.

I have also taken birth and death rate, immigration and emigration of population of other religion and its effect in spreading of an idea or Religion in our case.

All the journals are peer reviewed and over 2 impact factor. So yeah, I know more about the process.

Again as i said above you are not ready to be freed and you are not worth it.



btw yow enjoy psychoanalysis.....so do some analysis over this video and tell us the common people what u learnt from it....

 

[ajtr]

When Hindutvadi laden Indians proclaim that everybody in India is a Hindu, the minorities, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims etc feel that they are not accepted in India because of not accepting Hinduism as a religion.

Destruction of mosques and burning of Churches, desecration of Sikh Shrines etc exacerbate such a feeling - the refuge, only in religion and ghettization for survival.

Conversion from Hindu religion, particularly by females, raises hatred to an extent which is unfathomable.

@ajtr is a victim here for everybody to see and open their eyes.

The brave Hindu Indians here go to any length to demean her and insult her - and then say, it is not because of religion. Yet they bring in this factor one way or the other and can not hide their dispicability present in their minds.

Shame indeed.

No i dont want wear victim tag up my sleeves.i know i can retort myself without anybody accusing me of playing victim on pdf.

 

[KRAIT]

I dragged your religion...Wait a minute...let me post your words

Page 15, Post #218. # 222
AJTR "
Even i say i'm muslim first ...indian second."

Using large fonts to make you notice it was you, not me, who brought you in discussion.


You dragged yourself and now blaming me. That you always do. First you bring yourself in middle and if someone disagrees with you, you call it targeting and you play victim card. You insult other people like our soldiers then expect Indians to read your statements. And your cheerleader starts defending even if he doesn't know the truth .

Again you bringing Manipur women to defend Your Rioters.?

Are you seriously justifying those rioters ?

Sania doing it for sponsors not for love of this nation. Are you saying she is greedy not patriot by saying the statement. Who are you to judge her real motives ?

Can't access the video, and don't tell me what I am worthy of. Don't make me go personal then you have already made by bringing yourself as an example of Muslim who consider herself Muslim first.

You carry on your anywhere you want and let the research do the talking.

You are dodging the factors I raised regarding kashmir.

Can you debate on Kashmir situation just I approached. Can you debate on demographics, immigration, emigration, effect of terrorism, tourism and other social changes affecting Kashmiris and Kashmir's stability.

 

[Ticker]

While it commendable that people state they are Indian first, and Hindu later - facts do not bear this out. There are many aspects of Hinduism which directly contradict the Indian constitution. But people stick to those aspects of Hinduism rather than the constitution - e.g.

1. Open matrimonials - even though we are not supposed to discriminate among our fellow countrymen -we do so on the basis of religion, linguistic identity, ethnicity - even skin color.

2. Discrimination against women - practiced at the societal level although expressly forbidden in the constitution.

I could go on.

Except in cases of external aggression and in cases of sport - we are always more Hindu than Indian, irrespective of what we state.



I've read book across the world on this subject - in the US and in Europe. I have never come across these facts. Also, if this were true - why would Pakistan sign a standstill agreement with the Maharaja of Kashmir?

These are facts, facts which were not propagated by Indian historians. But these facts are available in print in many books. I have a few in my library. One is written in Urdu and is a marvelous reading. I have had the occasion of personally talking to many who had suffered during that era and their families are now settled in Azad Kashmir or Pakistan. Many have moved to the UK as well.

What Pakistan and its leaders did before and immediately after partition for gaining a separate state and maintaining its freedom and sovereignty were contentious indeed. The environment were totally different - India on the other hand did not have to face what a new country like Pakistan had to.

 

[karan.1970]

Kashmiri Pundits were thrown out of Kashmir to change the demography of Kashmir. People thought removing them will increase Muslim population and Hindus population reduce, which happened. Consider the birth rate of both the religion too.

What you have now is Muslim are more in percentage than when they were during Kashmiri Pundits living in Kashmir.

You can imagine the demography of the region if they weren't forced out and live as refugees.

Look at umber games. Density of population. Statistics. That's what explain the scenarios. My arguments are based on millions of people living in a region.

They thought after few decades, as Muslim population increases much more, almost 90-95 %, they will ask for election and people ill pick Pakistan as both were Muslim majority state.

The try that Pakistan made of reducing Hindu population in Kashmir thru terrorism actually has no significance any more.. Since the talk of plebiscite is as stillborn as it could be... Pakistan is now more busy trying save Balochistan and KP from breaking away from Pakistan than trying to make a move on Kashmir.. The Afghanistan strategy for India couldnt have worked any better...

 

[Ticker]

No i dont want wear victim tag up my sleeves.i know i can retort myself without anybody accusing me of playing victim on pdf.

Arrey .... I was not talking to you.

I was talking about you and giving your example and it is my opinion.

And I am always right - well almost always.

Tumhein nahin pasand - na sahi.

 

[Bhairava]

When Hindutvadi laden Indians proclaim that everybody in India is a Hindu, the minorities, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims etc feel that they are not accepted in India because of not accepting Hinduism as a religion.

No need to drag the Sikhs and Buddhists or even the xtians here. They dont have a chip on their shoulders constantly whining how they are discriminated, how they are victimized, bla bla. You want to make a point on behlaf of the Muslims, go ahead, but no need for the pakatthu elaikku payasam by dragging in the other minorities. Well to say frankly, minorities like SIkhs, Buddhists, Jains etc dont even consider them minority in a social milieu but only strictly number wise.

Destruction of mosques and burning of Churches, desecration of Sikh Shrines etc exacerbate such a feeling - the refuge, only in religion and ghettization for survival.

Again ignorance. Bringing in the Sikhs, just not to be left alone. The entrance to the Sikh Shrine, the Akal Takht, was repaired and renovated at taxpayer cost and it was handed to the Sikhs along with a nation that apologized to them for the innocents killed. And Sikhs live in ghettos..lullzz..maybe in Pakistan out of fear of Mullahs, but not in India. Sikhs are very well integrated into the mainstream, as much as any one could be.