Captured CST Terrorist

[Goodperson]

Fine hand him over.

What for ? No negotiations on that, ISI would be treated on par with other agencies rest assured we will not send him to Gitmo.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hi Agnostic good to see you back.

Surely you agree that there are likely at some people in Military/Intelligence who are involved with such things?

Whether the guy who's supposed to be at the top, i.e. Zardari, knows about it is a different thing.

Just popping in and out because of the tragedy that unfolded in Mumbai, and helping moderate a bit due to high traffic on the forum.

It is possible, though by no means a certainty, and shouldn't be considered barring strong evidence indicating so, that rogues in the intelligence and military might have acted in support of these individuals, if they did indeed train in Pakistan. However I find any sort of institutional support in planning this act almost impossible, given the increasingly counter terrorism focus of the ISI and PA, and the multiple crises Pakistan is facing.

We had a major defense exhibition going on, we are struggling to counter an extremely strong terrorist threat, we are suffering from an economic crises and just got the first tranche of the IMF loan, and our Foreign Minister was in India while we were actually seeing progress on the composite dialog and even counter terrorism cooperation - There was way to much potential for damage to Pakistan through this act for any Pakistani institution to be involved.

As I pointed out in the original thread, militants in FATA have utilized extremely sophisticated defenses, equipment and tactics, which went undetected by Pakistani intel. This was evident even as early as the Lal Masjid operation, in terms of the fortifications within the mosque and the tactics used by those holed up inside.

If you have followed events in FATA you should realize that some of the 'outside' groups like LeT, LeJ (Sunni extremists) etc. have been found to be working with the various Taliban groups. Therefore the sophistication of the attack does not surprise me. The other day there was a report suggesting that the Taliban groups earn close to 500 million USD from the drug trade originating in Afghanistan. The drug trade also morphs into an even more lucrative weapons trade primarily through the CAR's and Eastern Europe. So finances and weaponry here are obviously not a problem.

I think this is a very troubling development - the hitherto smaller groups (in all 4 countries Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) now possibly have access to the resources of the Taliban groups, either through alliances or access to the same drug/weapons smuggling networks.

 

[Halaku Khan]

Agnostic you make some very good points.

If there is that much drug money floating around these groups have the resources to do big things.

But then they would also have the resources to co-opt senior members of the military/intelligence.

So we may have rogue networks that are be fanatical in mind-set and are actually making a lot of money off the drug trade.

For example - the support of Jalaluddin Haqqani - do you think that is institutional?

Just popping in and out because of the tragedy that unfolded in Mumbai, and helping moderate a bit due to high traffic on the forum.

It is possible, though by no means a certainty, and shouldn't be considered barring strong evidence indicating so, that rogues in the intelligence and military might have acted in support of these individuals, if they did indeed train in Pakistan. However I find any sort of institutional support in planning this act almost impossible, given the increasingly counter terrorism focus of the ISI and PA, and the multiple crises Pakistan is facing.

We had a major defense exhibition going on, we are struggling to counter an extremely strong terrorist threat, we are suffering from an economic crises and just got the first tranche of the IMF loan, and our Foreign Minister was in India while we were actually seeing progress on the composite dialog and even counter terrorism cooperation - There was way to much potential for damage to Pakistan through this act for any Pakistani institution to be involved.

As I pointed out in the original thread, militants in FATA have utilized extremely sophisticated defenses, equipment and tactics, which went undetected by Pakistani intel. This was evident even as early as the Lal Masjid operation, in terms of the fortifications within the mosque and the tactics used by those holed up inside.

If you have followed events in FATA you should realize that some of the 'outside' groups like LeT, LeJ (Sunni extremists) etc. have been found to be working with the various Taliban groups. Therefore the sophistication of the attack does not surprise me. The other day there was a report suggesting that the Taliban groups earn close to 500 million USD from the drug trade originating in Afghanistan. The drug trade also morphs into an even more lucrative weapons trade primarily through the CAR's and Eastern Europe. So finances and weaponry here are obviously not a problem.

I think this is a very troubling development - the hitherto smaller groups (in all 4 countries Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) now possibly have access to the resources of the Taliban groups, either through alliances or access to the same drug/weapons smuggling networks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agnostic you make some very good points.

If there is that much drug money floating around these groups have the resources to do big things.

But then they would also have the resources to co-opt senior members of the military/intelligence.

So we may have rogue networks that are be fanatical in mind-set and are actually making a lot of money off the drug trade.

For example - the support of Jalaluddin Haqqani - do you think that is institutional?

Corruption is an issue in any institution, South Asian or Western. The disconnect between the danger the Taliban posed to Pakistan, and all this cash, may have indeed provided for rogues in intel, but the possibility of senior military leadership being 'bought out' by the Taliban is implausible. The earlier supporters of the Taliban and continued militancy in Kashmir (in the upper military leadership) existed for ideological reasons, and were purged by Musharaf as he joined the WoT and attempted rapprochement over Kashmir (see Owen Bennet Jones, Eye of the Storm).

We are increasingly seeing from Western reporting from the front in FATA, that the military officers, while distrustful of the US, are now increasingly viewing the Taliban as a serious threat to Pakistan, and that reduces even further any chances of 'drug money' influencing the institution.

Haqqani is linked with Mullah Nzair and Gul Bahadur. They are all Taliban leaders that Pakistan has utilized to thwart the TTP expansion in the Waziristan's. Pakistan's linkage with these groups, as I understand it, is not so much of active support, but one of ambivalence so far as they deny the TTP room to expand their influence, and do not attack Pakistan.

Eventually they will have to be disarmed as well, but my understanding is that Pakistan does not want to open up more fronts in FATA than it can handle at one time, especially given little movement in relations with India, and therefore the necessity for maintaining a bulk of its forces in the East.

I'd say that the belligerence seen from India recently will pretty much mean that any plans to reallocate greater resources to the West will be shelved for the time being, which is extremely unfortunate.

However, Pakistan cannot take a chance with the GoI's need to placate domestic sentiment by taking aggressive action of some sort, especially if another attack happens, and more attacks most likely will happen - that is certain.

 

[smeaglegolum]

india blaming its neighbors for another incident
what a shock lol
this isnt even news anymore

We have a captured terrorist on scene and he is talking!. This is very rare in any kind of terrorist activity. Whatever he speaks is Gospel, whether you like it or not.

Do you know where he is from?. Faridkot, Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have heard two versions so far - he is either from Bangladesh or Pakistan. Any confirmations?

The last name 'Kasav' doesn't sound Pakistani.

 

[TacOps]

My only question is:
What kind of an incompetent intelligence agency, be it ISI or whatever, would plan an attack with the objective of holding ground (grounds actually) with a handful of terrorists?. Common logic dictates that the first priority is to get out either undetected or get killed so you can't trace the attack back but these terrorists didn't want that, they wanted to stay and capture those hotels risking capture.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

From an earlier post:

"The earlier supporters of the Taliban and continued militancy in Kashmir (in the upper military leadership) existed for ideological reasons,"

Just to clarify, by ideological I am not necessarily implying a sharing of the Taliban 'ideology', but more of a view that continuing to strongly support such non-state actors was a viable strategy in terms of advancing Pakistani interests in Afghanistan and Kashmir.

 

[Awesome]

We have a captured terrorist on scene and he is talking!. This is very rare in any kind of terrorist activity. Whatever he speaks is Gospel, whether you like it or not.

Do you know where he is from?. Faridkot, Pakistan.

It is very rare for all countries except when Indians catch a terrorist.

The captured bloke spills out so much that novels can be written from his statement.

 

[Imran Khan]

I have heard two versions so far - he is either from Bangladesh or Pakistan. Any confirmations?

The last name 'Kasav' doesn't sound Pakistani.

sorry sir story is not yet finished by indian writers when its finished they will relese it its first episode they names wich we ever not lisen in pakistan they use them as pakistani .

 

[smeaglegolum]

I have heard two versions so far - he is either from Bangladesh or Pakistan. Any confirmations?

The last name 'Kasav' doesn't sound Pakistani.

He is pakistani according to ATS. He is the same guy with AK-47 who was captured on photographs.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Access for ISI/FIA investigators to freely interrogate and corroborate all statements and evidence should remove doubts from our side I hope.

Again, a lot depends upon the atmosphere between the two nations going forward.

 

[Halaku Khan]

Thanks for your views Agnostic.

It is very important to understand the relationships between various entities.

For example the Lal Masjid incident - I have always found it puzzling. That Masjid is right next to the ISI HQ. Not only that, they were allowed to do as they pleased for a long time. Only when they kidnapped the Chinese massage girls and China got angry did Musharraf decide to act.

They would not have been given all that leeway without some support from within the establishment. But still it is clear that the support was not from Musharraf himself. It seems they were being backed by a non-state network which might include serving personnel as well as retired personnel like Hamid Gul. And such a non-state network would need large resources which might come from the drugs trade.

As regards Haqqani - he is carrying out attacks on Americans in Afghanistan.
I'm sure he needs a lot of money and weapons. It would be interesting to see where they come from.

Corruption is an issue in any institution, South Asian or Western. The disconnect between the danger the Taliban posed to Pakistan, and all this cash, may have indeed provided for rogues in intel, but the possibility of senior military leadership being 'bought out' by the Taliban is implausible. The earlier supporters of the Taliban and continued militancy in Kashmir (in the upper military leadership) existed for ideological reasons, and were purged by Musharaf as he joined the WoT and attempted rapprochement over Kashmir (see Owen Bennet Jones, Eye of the Storm).

We are increasingly seeing from Western reporting from the front in FATA, that the military officers, while distrustful of the US, are now increasingly viewing the Taliban as a serious threat to Pakistan, and that reduces even further any chances of 'drug money' influencing the institution.

Haqqani is linked with Mullah Nzair and Gul Bahadur. They are all Taliban leaders that Pakistan has utilized to thwart the TTP expansion in the Waziristan's. Pakistan's linkage with these groups, as I understand it, is not so much of active support, but one of ambivalence so far as they deny the TTP room to expand their influence, and do not attack Pakistan.

Eventually they will have to be disarmed as well, but my understanding is that Pakistan does not want to open up more fronts in FATA than it can handle at one time, especially given little movement in relations with India, and therefore the necessity for maintaining a bulk of its forces in the East.

I'd say that the belligerence seen from India recently will pretty much mean that any plans to reallocate greater resources to the West will be shelved for the time being, which is extremely unfortunate.

However, Pakistan cannot take a chance with the GoI's need to placate domestic sentiment by taking aggressive action of some sort, especially if another attack happens, and more attacks most likely will happen - that is certain.

 

[smeaglegolum]

more evidence accumulation

Surgeons find over 100 Pakistan-made bullets


Vikram SharmaFirst Published : 29 Nov 2008 02:11:00 AM ISTLast Updated : 29 Nov 2008 08:00:38 AM IST

MUMBAI: Doctors at the JJ Group of Hospitals have had “enough of Pakistan” during the last 48 hours. “It is a POF bullet again,” they would say after performing every surgery, that takes close to two hours.
While all their focus is on saving lives, what disturbs them is the increasing count of the bullets, all manufactured in Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF). So far, the doctors have removed over 100 POF bullets. A container full of blood stained bullets says it all. "We have removed 100- odd bullets and handed them over to the police. A close look shows POF embossed on them which is certainly frustrating,” a senior orthapaedician, who did not wish to be identified, disclosed to Express.
The team of doctors is led by the dean B M Subnis, Dr Chandan Wale and Superintendent of the hospital H H Jadhav. “We have treated 127 victims so far and performed several surgeries. Seventeen have died as they suffered multiple bullet injuries,” said Dr Jadhav adding that the condition of four is critical.
“We have removed over a 100 bullets so far and cannot reveal much about their make,” the dean said. Most of those admitted to J J Hospital are the ones who were hit by fedayeen’s bullets at Chatrapathi Shivaji Terminus (CST). At this place alone, 47 innocent lives were lost.

 

[Flintlock]

Access for ISI/FIA investigators to freely interrogate and corroborate all statements and evidence should remove doubts from our side I hope.

Again, a lot depends upon the atmosphere between the two nations going forward.

Atleast two major international agencies - the FBI and Scotland Yard, are cooperating with the Indian Agencies.

If both these agencies corroborate the findings by Indians, Pakistan will be put under immense international pressure to take action.

Remember, 6 American citizens have been killed, a number of British, Australian, even Chinese citizens I believe have been killed.

This isn't India versus Pakistan anymore. those two hotels contained citizens of atleast 50+ nations. The whole world wants to know who was behind this.