Captured CST Terrorist

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, this is what needs to happen.

Wonder why so many people are automatically assuming the worst. I feel this is what would happen. If the evidence is good enough for the other agencies, it should be good enough for Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to be involved in the investigation to remove distrust and suspicion domestically, both in the establishment and the populace. A conclusion by Pakistani investigators that the evidence is valid will strengthen the hands of the government in taking action if needed. Otherwise it may just play out as it is right now, with the government coming under pressure from the opposition and others for 'bowing' to the diktat of India, under pressure from Indian belligerence.

There is already suspicion of Western intentions in Afghanistan, especially since the ground raid and the accusations of ISI involvement, among other reasons. Pakistan has to be involved and should be involved.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I meant that we may have to chase people who actually had nothing to do with the attacks just because the Americans and Europeans tell us to chase them.

I am sure many Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were killed on 9/11 but I never heard that the US would accept what our government say concerning the attacks or whom to chase.

All I am saying is that the intelligence agencies of Bangladesh and Pakistan must have some input similar to the FBI and Scotland Yard before we are told to start grabbing people for the attacks.

I have to agree with Munshi on this.

While the nationals of other nations were killed, it is the nationals of Bangladesh and Pakistan who are being accused. Indian, American or British investigators are not the ones familiar with the domestic situation in Pakistan and Bangladesh. The sort of information required for taking action in those countries, if the allegations are true, is best obtained by Pakistani and Bangladeshi investigators, who are familiar with the local dynamics.

 

[Goodperson]

I meant that we may have to chase people who actually had nothing to do with the attacks just because the Americans and Europeans tell us to chase them.

I am sure many Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were killed on 9/11 but I never heard that the US would accept what our government say concerning the attacks or whom to chase.

All I am saying is that the intelligence agencies of Bangladesh and Pakistan must have some input similar to the FBI and Scotland Yard before we are told to start grabbing people for the attacks.

FBI and Scotland will be coming for help not directing Indian agencies are not known to take help from foreign agencies in domestic matters. FBI / Scotland yard need to find out who were behind their citizens death. Of course MOSSAD will get involved too.

 

[Flintlock]

I have to agree with Munshi on this.

While the nationals of other nations were killed, it is the nationals of Bangladesh and Pakistan who are being accused. Indian, American or British investigators are not the ones familiar with the domestic situation in Pakistan and Bangladesh. The sort of information required for taking action in those countries, if the allegations are true, is best obtained by Pakistani and Bangladeshi investigators, who are familiar with the local dynamics.

The problem Agno, is that, though India is not saying so in order to prevent escalating tensions between the two countries, the ISI and the Pakistan Army's hand is being investigated (before you protest in indignation, let me say that nothing has been proved yet)

India is loath to simply hand over valuable intelligence which may be used to cover-up and protect the perpetrators in Pakistan rather than be used against them.

 

[Vinod2070]

Pakistan needs to be involved in the investigation to remove distrust and suspicion domestically, both in the establishment and the populace. A conclusion by Pakistani investigators that the evidence is valid will strengthen the hands of the government in taking action if needed. Otherwise it may just play out as it is right now, with the government coming under pressure from the opposition and others for 'bowing' to the diktat of India, under pressure from Indian belligerence.

There is already suspicion of Western intentions in Afghanistan, especially since the ground raid and the accusations of ISI involvement, among other reasons. Pakistan has to be involved and should be involved.

Well obviously the information that needs to be shared will be shared after taking the necessary precautions of protecting the sources etc.

I don't think we are looking at a joint investigation within India. The evidence should be shared with Pakistan along with the few other agencies of countries whose nationals have been killed. It it is good enough for them, it should be good for Pakistan.

The point is if someone wants to disbelieve he would not even believe a smoking gun. A captured terrorist is the best evidence there can be in such circumstances.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

India is loath to simply hand over valuable intelligence which may be used to cover-up and protect the perpetrators in Pakistan rather than be used against them.

If Pakistan is not convinced of the evidence, then it won't act anyway. I fail to see the logic behind not involving Pakistan, it only makes the job harder, and attempts to 'force' Pakistan to act, by bringing other nations on board the investigation and convincing them to pressure Pakistan, rather than convince Pakistan, by involving her and the other nations.

What has India accomplished so far by not involving Pakistan in investigations?

 

[TacOps]

The problem Agno, is that, though India is not saying so in order to prevent escalating tensions between the two countries, the ISI and the Pakistan Army's hand is being investigated (before you protest in indignation, let me say that nothing has been proved yet)

India is loath to simply hand over valuable intelligence which may be used to cover-up and protect the perpetrators in Pakistan rather than be used against them.

But investigating the hand of Pakistan army or ISI is absolutely a no-brainer. Can you answer my question here?:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/230320-post67.html (I'm not saying you are saying its right, but I can't see why people are even considering this).

I saw the POF bullets evidence post. That combined with evidence about mobile phone calls to Pakistan by the terrorists. Oh come on!, if Pakistani agencies did have a hand, they would have done a much better job covering up by putting a Pakistan army insignia on those terrorists!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well obviously the information that needs to be shared will be shared after taking the necessary precautions of protecting the sources etc.

I don't think we are looking at a joint investigation within India. The evidence should be shared with Pakistan along with the few other agencies of countries whose nationals have been killed. It it is good enough for them, it should be good for Pakistan.

The point is if someone wants to disbelieve he would not even believe a smoking gun. A captured terrorist is the best evidence there can be in such circumstances.

Nothing in the Indo-Pak context is 'good enough' just because it is shared with others, especially of late in Pakistan in the context of the West, given the huge amount of distrust that has cropped up, for reasons I have mentioned already.

So far your only 'source' is the terrorist you have, I hardly think the ISI investigators will try and murder him and make a run for it.

But lets wait and see what kind of evidence, other than a 'confession' India offers to share, and what exactly it will ask be done. I am not certain extraditions will be forthcoming (without a quid pro quo), though trials and incarcerations in Pakistan should definitely be looked at.

 

[Flintlock]

But investigating the hand of Pakistan army or ISI is absolutely a no-brainer. Can you answer my question here?:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/230320-post67.html (I'm not saying you are saying its right, but I can't see why people are even considering this).

I saw the POF bullets evidence post. That combined with evidence about mobile phone calls to Pakistan by the terrorists. Oh come on!, if Pakistani agencies did have a hand, they would have done a much better job covering up by putting a Pakistan army insignia on those terrorists!

Look, in the face of direct evidence like bullets embossed with "POF", all the other speculation regarding "why would they want to use them" etc. etc. fade away.
Because the plain facts before our eyes indicate that the bullets were manufactured in the POF.

There are several possibilities, including the one that perhaps certain elements within the Pakistani establishment are working to scuttle the peace process between the two nations. Perhaps the bullets were a deliberately procured to implicate Pakistan and thus sabotage the peace-process.

(This is merely speculation on my part, but you can see that there are different scenarios)

 

[jeypore]

I meant that we may have to chase people who actually had nothing to do with the attacks just because the Americans and Europeans tell us to chase them.

I am sure many Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were killed on 9/11 but I never heard that the US would accept what our government say concerning the attacks or whom to chase.

All I am saying is that the intelligence agencies of Bangladesh and Pakistan must have some input similar to the FBI and Scotland Yard before we are told to start grabbing people for the attacks.

This is very lame, so you are saying the intelligence agencies of bangladesh and pakistan do not know already which are terror cells in your own country. That you need confirmations from FBI and Scoltand yard. Then you ask questions about grabbing people. If a country did want coexistence they should act on in benefit of themselves and the seroiusness of idelogy change, sadly it is confussing questions for the moderates.

 

[Goodperson]

My only question is:
What kind of an incompetent intelligence agency, be it ISI or whatever, would plan an attack with the objective of holding ground (grounds actually) with a handful of terrorists?. Common logic dictates that the first priority is to get out either undetected or get killed so you can't trace the attack back but these terrorists didn't want that, they wanted to stay and capture those hotels risking capture.

The people at hotel had locked their rooms it was very difficult for agencies to make them open doors risking a terrorist or a hostage. Terrorist had recce before attacks they new Taj very well than agencies. Terrorist made hostages to put fires at different places which only added to delays.

 

[Goodperson]

But investigating the hand of Pakistan army or ISI is absolutely a no-brainer. Can you answer my question here?:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/230320-post67.html (I'm not saying you are saying its right, but I can't see why people are even considering this).

I saw the POF bullets evidence post. That combined with evidence about mobile phone calls to Pakistan by the terrorists. Oh come on!, if Pakistani agencies did have a hand, they would have done a much better job covering up by putting a Pakistan army insignia on those terrorists!

Imagination has no limits agencies have to work with facts in hand.

 

[Flintlock]

If Pakistan is not convinced of the evidence, then it won't act anyway. I fail to see the logic behind not involving Pakistan, it only makes the job harder, and attempts to 'force' Pakistan to act, by bringing other nations on board the investigation and convincing them to pressure Pakistan, rather than convince Pakistan, by involving her and the other nations.

What has India accomplished so far by not involving Pakistan in investigations?

Well, as I can see it, the best way forward is to put pressure on Pakistan by involving several agencies from different countries.

This way, it ensures that our evidence is not misused to scrub the trail clean in Pakistan, and it also compels Pakistan to act.

Pakistan has extradited several of its citizens suspected by USA in the past. Now since the USA has lost its citizens in the attack, we have reason to believe that they may make a similar demand in this case.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Look, in the face of direct evidence like bullets embossed with "POF", all the other speculation regarding "why would they want to use them" etc. etc. fade away.
Because the plain facts before our eyes indicate that the bullets were manufactured in the POF.

There are several possibilities, including the one that perhaps certain elements within the Pakistani establishment are working to scuttle the peace process between the two nations. Perhaps the bullets were a deliberately procured to implicate Pakistan and thus sabotage the peace-process.

(This is merely speculation on my part, but you can see that there are different scenarios)

POF ordinance has also been found in the hands of terrorists in FATA, and there is plenty of US and Pakistani origin weaponry (stolen, hijacked, captured) floating around in the Tribal black market.

We have NATO supplies being stolen, and we have had trucks of PA/FC ammo and supplies stolen in FATA.

Finding POF ordinance indicates absolutely nothing at this point.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, as I can see it, the best way forward is to put pressure on Pakistan by involving several agencies from different countries.

This way, it ensures that our evidence is not misused to scrub the trail clean in Pakistan, and it also compels Pakistan to act.

Pakistan has extradited several of its citizens suspected by USA in the past. Now since the USA has lost its citizens in the attack, we have reason to believe that they may make a similar demand in this case.

Err, either way Pakistan will be pressured, if the evidence is conclusive, since other nations will be involved in both cases. However it makes deniability by Pakistan harder if it is involved, and makes the job of the GoP easier when it comes to taking action.