Can Bangladesh be East Pakistan again?

[Tiki Tam Tam]

BD Wonder,

If Bangladesh is a ridiculous entity and it should be a part of Pakistan, then do let us know why is the delay in rejoining?

Why did so many Bangladeshis die for no reason?

Are the PMs and Presidents of Bangladesh utter clots that they continue to have a separate county and debunk the concept of ummah?

and be clear - are you a Bengali or a Bihari razakaar or your family were, what the Bangladeshi forums state, as 'collaborators'?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It's actual research Salim. .

Sure would like to hear of the research papers!

Produce them!

Musharraf thinks otherwise.

You seem to know more than your President!!!!!

But then, quite a few of you think that your President is a chump as I see on this forum!

 

[r4rehan]

Again utter tripe and a post without indicating any logic, fact or link!

hm... here is lots of thing which is happing but with out prove !

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

No intolerance. They proved they cannot live with Pakistan. So, they're not fit to live with Pakistan. Pakistan did not mind them joining, but Pakistan should mind them re-joining after all that's happened. Nothing racial in this, if you think about it.

How true that they proved that they could not live with Pakistan. They were, as per your logic, tolerant and yet believed breaking away was 'tolerance'. If one is tolerant, then why break away and so 'intolerance'? Logic!!!

Nonsense. The theory that they are rice eating dark weaklings was put forward by non Pakistani researchers. I believe it's an evolutionary fact, is it not?

Not at all.

Bengalis are far intelligent than you all!

What are you on about in this part?

???

Not understood.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

hm... here is lots of thing which is happing but with out prove !

Really?

How intelligent!

 

[Scorpius]

When did I say that they are Pakistanis?

My allusion to Bengali and Bihari of India and their difference inspite of the State borders being contiguous was to debunk the utter nonsense being perpetuated by those who are running for excuses that distance made Bengalis of East Pakistan want to be a separate country!

Living in denial is fine, but that is not REALITY or honesty in thought!!

Let distance not be the reason for difference. Is a Punjabi same as a Sindhi, Kashmiri, Patan or a Baloch even though there is hardly a comparison to Bangladesh separation.

Does it mean that the crationof Pakistan is flawed?

Understand sub nationalism and nationalism.

I sure wish to hear what Wonder of BD has to say, if indeed he is a Bengali!

Biharis aren't that far from Bangladesh.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...map.svg/530px-India_Bihar_locator_map.svg.png

Yeh almost right next to it infact.

Wheras Pakistan is far away. Therefore you will have more similarities (cultural, racial,etc) with Biharis then Pakistanis. Simple really isnt it..

I mean just how many countries have two parts which are thousands of miles apart? Not many are there, I wonder why that is..

Let distance not be the reason for difference. Is a Punjabi same as a Sindhi, Kashmiri, Patan or a Baloch even though there is hardly a comparison to Bangladesh separation.

Distance is a valid reason as I explained above, don't matter if there are some differences in the various pakistani ethnic groups. All groups are located close enough to each other and share enough of the same values that they can together form a nation.

Bangladesh should never have been part of Pakistan, yes we both believe in the same religion but so does Uzbekistan, Afghanistan,etc.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

OK chaps, let us for discussion’s sake take the following parameters as correct since that is what is being stated, directly and indirectly:

1. Bangladeshis did not want Independence.

2. India manipulated Bangladesh’s independence.

3. Mujib was an Indian in disguise.

Now answer this:

1. How come 90,000 troops and maybe more who escaped and were not PsW failed to defend East Pakistan, when troops and assistance was coming via the Sri Lankan route? Note: India had to look after two fronts and the Chinese and US threat and so the whole Indian army was not looking towards East Pakistan. Also note that if India denuded the Western Front, Pakistan could have sallied into Kashmir and achieved its aim and made the Indian claim to Kashmir redundant!

2. If indeed India was alone in the effort on East Pakistan, then how come it managed to knock to 90000 or more Pakistani military personnel in merely 14 days or so.
Either the Indian Army was super or the Pakistani army was totally useless and more of a police force! Now which was it?

3. If the Bengalis were not up in arms, then how come the international media including the US media, was talking about Bengalis rebelling? Nixon, it must be remembered sailed the 7th Fleet against in India!

4. What Musharrf writes in his book on this issue bogus?

5. Why the Bangladeshis turned out in such a huge number to hear Mujib after the Liberation?

6. From 1971 till date, how is it that the Bangladesh government not joined Bangladesh to Pakistan and give credence to the Islamic concept of one Nation called the ummah?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

QUOTE=Scorpius;119332]Biharis aren't that far from Bangladesh.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...map.svg/530px-India_Bihar_locator_map.svg.png

It pains me that you have joined discussion without any idea of the facts of the Liberation of Bangladesh.

I assure you that the Razaakars of Bangladesh are not Americans, but Bihari Moslems of India who went there after Partition.

Do read some to the thread to realise that apart from you, there a Pakistanis who know what are Razaakars of Bangladesh and who want Pakistani citizenship which is being denied and are languishing in Bangladesh!

Wheras Pakistan is far away. Therefore you will have more similarities (cultural, racial,etc) with Biharis then Pakistanis. Simple really isnt it..

Live in denial if you wish!

But then contention of distance is utter tripe!

I mean just how many countries have two parts which are thousands of miles apart? Not many are there, I wonder why that is..

Some .

The US.

China.

India.

Distance is a valid reason as I explained above, don't matter if there are some differences in the various pakistani ethnic groups. All groups are located close enough to each other and share enough of the same values that they can together form a nation.

Precisely.

Yet values are not diluted by distance!

Sadly, for Pakistan, if one goes by the problems erupting, it indicates the even proximity is not a binding factor.

True one can blame foreign interests at work, but if the bind was strong, then even foreign influence could not have cast anything asunder! Note: subnationalism is a stronger bind than an abstract concept of nationalism.

Bangladesh should never have been part of Pakistan, yes we both believe in the same religion but so does Uzbekistan, Afghanistan,etc.

Why should it not have been a part of Pakistan? You know better than Jinnah?

If Uzbekistan and Afghanistan are separate as are other Islamic countries, then are you suggesting that the concept of ummah in the Koran is unachievable/ illogical/ false?

 

[roadrunner]

Sure would like to hear of the research papers!

Produce them!

Musharraf thinks otherwise.

You seem to know more than your President!!!!!

But then, quite a few of you think that your President is a chump as I see on this forum!

What does Musharraf think then?

I'll need to search for them. Not sure they exist on the web for Bangladesh in particular..You'll need to buy a book.

What are you on about intelligence for now? Alright, Bangladesh is the most intelligent nation on the planet. Happy?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

What does Musharraf think then?

I'll need to search for them.

What are you on about intelligence for now? Alright, Bangladesh is the most intelligent nation on the planet. Happy?

Let me not stop you.

Go ahead and research.

Good that you realise the Bangladesh has intelligent people. I think they have. And I am proud of them!

Yet I am Indian and not a razzaakar or a collaborator Wonder of BD.

Some Bangaldeshi may not be proud of their nation, but I am. Yet it does not mean that I want them to like India!

The sacrifices cannot be forgotten nor the hard work that they have put in to bring it to where it is!

Those Bangladeshi who are not proud of themselves should hang their head in shame!

 

[roadrunner]

the theory is that the Bangladesh staple-eaters would be weaker, more feeble, small-muscled and small-boned people. There is something behind it, as the staple diets were never considered to be of dense nutritional value. Seems to be quite a few books with it in.

I completely agree sacrifices should not be in vain also. I hope Bangladesh remains independent (at least from Pakistan) for ever more. I doubt it very much though, since India will lose its temper soon enough and bomb the place. One things for sure it'll never let it progress.

 

[Scorpius]

Some .

The US.

China.

India.

USA: http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/usa-maps/maps_of_world_usa_states_city.gif

Now apart from a few Islands the rest of the mandlass of the USA is across one large area.

China: http://www.mapsofworld.com/china/maps/china.jpg

India: http://www.mapsofworld.com/india/maps/india-political-map.jpg

The same applies for both China and India, although in all these countries the territory is vast it is continuous. There are no massive gaps, now look at Pakistan and then look at Bangladesh. Whats in the way? Yes thats India m8.

Totally different situation, your the one who aint got a clue.

Precisely.

Yet values are not diluted by distance!

Sadly, for Pakistan, if one goes by the problems erupting, it indicates the even proximity is not a binding factor.

True one can blame foreign interests at work, but if the bind was strong, then even foreign influence could not have cast anything asunder! Note: subnationalism is a stronger bind than an abstract concept of nationalism.

Culture ,values etc change and are different in every country. I have tried to explain this to you but I don't see why you can't grasp this simple concept.

Pakistan is seperated by thousands of miles land from Bangladesh, the culture is very different, so are the people. As such there is no way Bangladesh should ever be part of Pakistan.

Pakistan's internal problems have nothing to do with whether Bangladesh should be part of Pakistan.

Why should it not have been a part of Pakistan? You know better than Jinnah?

If Uzbekistan and Afghanistan are separate as are other Islamic countries, then are you suggesting that the concept of ummah in the Koran is unachievable/ illogical/ false?

For the reasons I have said above, Jinnah was wrong. He is a man, we all make mistakes. Don't worship men or think they are perfect just because they have achieved outstanding things, at the end of the day they are still human with all there weaknesses and fragile nature.

ahh now I understand your reasoning. You want a wider ummah..

Well to hell with that idea, never gonna hapen m8. Not in this world, only in the dreams of religious men.

Pakistan wasn't formed to be a Caliphate or to be governed under Shariah law.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

USA: http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/usa-maps/maps_of_world_usa_states_city.gif

Now apart from a few Islands the rest of the mandlass of the USA is across one large area.

China: http://www.mapsofworld.com/china/maps/china.jpg

India: http://www.mapsofworld.com/india/maps/india-political-map.jpg

The same applies for both China and India, although in all these countries the territory is vast it is continuous. There are no massive gaps, now look at Pakistan and then look at Bangladesh. Whats in the way? Yes thats India m8.

Totally different situation, your the one who aint got a clue.

Producing maps is not the answer. What has the Andamanese common with, let us say, the Punjabis of India? Yet they are Indians! And there are huge distances separating them!

Gaps are also no answer.

It is not I who has no clue, it is you who is clueless since you are looking at the spatial difference alone. National feeling is not only based on distances. It is based on congruity in religious, cultural, social and other affinities.

The unfortunate part is that you are superficial in vision and that is what makes it difficult.

Culture ,values etc change and are different in every country. I have tried to explain this to you but I don't see why you can't grasp this simple concept.

And yet the are subjugated for national feeling, abstract as it may appear!

Pakistan is seperated by thousands of miles land from Bangladesh, the culture is very different, so are the people. As such there is no way Bangladesh should ever be part of Pakistan.

How is the Punjabi culture same as the Balochi. Sindhi or Pashtun?

Pakistan's internal problems have nothing to do with whether Bangladesh should be part of Pakistan.

And why not?

On the one hand you say distance is what made Bengalis alien and yet on the other hand you dismiss the current ethnic/ subnational problems of Pakistan, even though distance is not an issue! Make up your mind.

For the reasons I have said above, Jinnah was wrong. He is a man, we all make mistakes. Don't worship men or think they are perfect just because they have achieved outstanding things, at the end of the day they are still human with all there weaknesses and fragile nature.

I am glad you admit that Jinnah was wrong and he did not understand the issues involved as you have so clearly understood! I am sure the majority of Pakistanis would not agree with you since it is an insulting thought!

Yes, he was human and you are not!

May I request you not to demean Jinnah even if he is wrong!

ahh now I understand your reasoning. You want a wider ummah..

Well to hell with that idea, never gonna hapen m8. Not in this world, only in the dreams of religious men.

Pakistan wasn't formed to be a Caliphate or to be governed under Shariah law.

I don't. The Quaran says so!

I reckon that you should accept it as the word of Allah!

Or you wish to be the rationale man?

 

[roadrunner]

I d agree with you surprisingly Salim, that gaps arent the answer. I argued that the gap wasnt the reason on pdf also. What is important is Bengali nationalism. Your own nationalism is coming through. They're highly nationalistic people, racist to a great extent with a deep distrust of everyone non Bengali, completey docile and insecure (perhaps lazy to a degree and not willing to admit their own mistakes), carrying huge chips on their shoulder. Two words, nationalism and docility, would best be described as the reasons for Bangladesh's separation. Now Punjabi, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Baloch, Northern Areas people, are not nationalistic to the degree they will distrust someone of the other ethnic group, simply because they have a dissimilar appearance. Generally these groups are more securer and not proudly nationalistic to blame others for their own mistakes/mentality. That is why Pakistan of today can gel together. The mentality of the people is the same. The mentality of the Bengalis is not. It will lead to further problems down the road for India.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I d agree with you surprisingly Salim, that gaps arent the answer. I argued that the gap wasnt the reason on pdf also. What is important is Bengali nationalism. Your own nationalism is coming through. They're highly nationalistic people, racist to a great extent with a deep distrust of everyone non Bengali, completey docile and insecure (perhaps lazy to a degree and not willing to admit their own mistakes), carrying huge chips on their shoulder. Two words, nationalism and docility, would best be described as the reasons for Bangladesh's separation. Now Punjabi, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Baloch, Northern Areas people, are not nationalistic to the degree they will distrust someone of the other ethnic group, simply because they have a dissimilar appearance. Generally these groups are more securer and not proudly nationalistic to blame others for their own mistakes/mentality. That is why Pakistan of today can gel together. The mentality of the people is the same. The mentality of the Bengalis is not. It will lead to further problems down the road for India.

I find your thoughts most interesting, humorous and rather bigoted, if you will.

The issue that you attribute to the Bengalis are too generalised and apparently more out of pique!

There have been posts, including links, in this very forum, to indicate the Punjabi arrogance causing heartburns amongst the other races/ communities/ ethnic groups of Pakistan and you claim that all in Pakistan are solidly together and beyond the negative traits that you attribute to the Bengalis. There is even a post in this forum wherein a boss who was a non Mohajir person, balked at the revelation that the subordinate was a Mohajir.

Therefore, the generalisation, with all humility, I will submit is flawed!

Notwithstanding, I find the Wonder of BD rather silent on the issues raised by you. Has this aspect led you to surmise that all Bengalis are docile and insecure? I assure you that Bengalis are not so "cool" and they don't slink away. The birth of Bangladesh is a live case in point. However, those who are not Bengalis in the true sense, but by circumstances live in Bangladesh may slink away, since they are not Bengalis and instead have dubious loyalties like the Razakaar or the collaborators.

Such people living in Bangladesh could not care what slurs are attributed to Bengalis or Bangladesh since their heart is elsewhere. And the extraordinary part is that where their heart is do not accept them to be their own!

A lost community - people without a country (in the emotional way)!