Buying and upgrading old F-16 - Are they worth it?

[pursuit of happiness]

Sounds right. F-16s *will* dominate adversery's 4th generation fleet along with a well evolved JFT fleet. PAF is all in a mood to raise it along the lines of the Gripen program.

I personally don't see FC-20s in PAF colors as they offer us no 'unique' advantages. The lack of AESA radars everyone touts so much about is taken care of by Erieye,ZDK-3,AN/TPS-77 inductions for now. At the moment we have a tactical 'advantage' over IAF in regards to territorial coverage and early warning.

--
F16 WILL dominate Su-30mki? how can you elaborate ?
not putting rafael as its still on paper ..
can you elaborate tactical advantage?
did you consider only awacs in this?
is to so simple to replace AESA with awacs ?
FC 20 data link with erieye?

 

[Storm Force]

Aeronaut
F-16s *will* dominate adversery's 4th generation fleet along with a well evolved JFT fleet. PAF is all in a mood to raise it along the lines of the Gripen program

That is a seriously ambitious statement.

I admire the F16 brilliant war plane and 100 of these in PAF would have detroyed the IAF in 1999
Unforunately the PAF are acquiring the F16 at a time when many F16 user nations are scrapping there older block falcons
The F16 earlier blocks is being replace by Typhoon Rafale Gripen & F35 accros the globe.

You guys are picking these older falcons in a era where they will have to fight more modern

su30mki brand new
Mirage2000-5 upgraded
Mig29k navy

And possiblly Rafale F3

Outnumbered and inferior awacs and satalite support.

I,M JUST NOT CONVINCED YOU CAN DOMINATE. with fleet of vintage F16s

The indian fighters are newer than the bulk of the PAF F16 FLEET

 

[Storm Force]

Nobody is selling block 52 OTHER THAN USA.

100s of block a and b F16 availabvle globally

 

[elitepilot09]

--
F16 WILL dominate Su-30mki? how can you elaborate ?

An F-16 can certainly be a headache for any Sukhoi there ever was, including the MKI. In my opinion, because of the obvious advantage the F-16 has in terms of RCS (these are unconfirmed sources but any pundit with a logical thought process would understand and accept that the SU-30 has a substantially higher RCS) the SU-30 would certainly be detected at very great distances (120+ km). That's not to say that the F-16 wouldn't be detected by the SU-30 around the same distance either. The F-16 will capitalize on this advantage if you decided to load your whale of a MKI with that Russian BrahMos... And aside from all this, I'd always prefer the more widely combat proven aircraft and systems on my side.. ie. AIM-120, ALQ-211

Indians are so in love with their Sukhoi's that I'm sure they'd even believe it can take on an F-22... lets think realistically for a moment please.

Hi,
So---now---that is where we are----. At this stage---pak needs to have a minimum of 150---to 175 F16 blk 52's and MLU'd aircraft in its inventory in the next 3 years all put together.

As or the JF 17---it needs a total of 175 aircraft----- + 36 J11's.

Can pakistan get the J11's---????????

If today---china had double the numbers of J10's---and su 27's and su 30's and J11's---its political posturing would have been taken differently.

Also with the technology increasing in massive leaps and bounds within weeks and months----it becomes extremely difficult to decide on what is important and what is not.

To me---it seems like the chinese have been caught up in their " too clever a trap ".

Otoh----PAF has a breath of fresh air---. Somebody woke up one day and realized that there is nowhere to go but the USED F 16----refurbish it---upgrade it and W'allah you have a frontline fighter aircraft that can be used for 10 different roles in an extremely cost effective manner.

In my opinion, right now the priority for the PAF should be to replace the older aircraft with Blk2 JF-17's and develop it into a more mature platform. The jet needs some very fundamental features which will make it a more efficient fighter including a dual seat version, an in flight refuelling probe, 9 hardpoints as opposed to 7, anb hopefully European avionics. Not to mention that a more developed JF-17 will also win export contracts.

I'm a very very strong advocate for Pakistan making use of the 18 optional Blk52+ F-16s. Congress will not even need to approve it again as it was the offer in the initial contract, there will be no huffing and puffing. J-11 and other Chinese aircraft are out of the question, MastanKhan.

So to sum up, as far as inventory is concerned, PAF should mature the JFT, MLU older F-16s, and take the additional 18 F-16 Blk52+s. It is financially, economically, politically the most viable way to go!!

 

[Informant]

Getting just 8 new Block52+ doesn't make sense. How can you operate a squadron with a mix of jets? Simply either buy a 18 more (i guess the old congress approval of 36 is still valid) or scoop up used MLU, non-MLU f-16s and bring them to the same standard in the fleet.

Actually it would be better if PAF went for F-16D BLK52 with the dorsal spine. Legend says it has got some serious ECM/EW systems in place to act as a wild weasel role.

Legend? It DOES rip apart whatever Indians got in EW department. Same tech is found on the F-18 super hornets.

 

[Donatello]

Aeronaut
F-16s *will* dominate adversery's 4th generation fleet along with a well evolved JFT fleet. PAF is all in a mood to raise it along the lines of the Gripen program

That is a seriously ambitious statement.

I admire the F16 brilliant war plane and 100 of these in PAF would have detroyed the IAF in 1999
Unforunately the PAF are acquiring the F16 at a time when many F16 user nations are scrapping there older block falcons
The F16 earlier blocks is being replace by Typhoon Rafale Gripen & F35 accros the globe.

You guys are picking these older falcons in a era where they will have to fight more modern

su30mki brand new
Mirage2000-5 upgraded
Mig29k navy

And possiblly Rafale F3

Outnumbered and inferior awacs and satalite support.

I,M JUST NOT CONVINCED YOU CAN DOMINATE. with fleet of vintage F16s

The indian fighters are newer than the bulk of the PAF F16 FLEET

Do you want to get banned? Because by posting garbage like this you get banned.

 

[Donatello]

Legend? It DOES rip apart whatever Indians got in EW department. Same tech is found on the F-18 super hornets.

Yes that's what i meant. Can't seem to find info on what exact electronic system is in there, but given the fact that dorsal spine has a large volume, rest assured it would be a very powerful one. PAF should get it's hands on F-16Ds if possible. I am sure the senators in US Congress would approve as they can keep the assembly lines working.

 

[Informant]

Do you want to get banned? Because by posting garbage like this you get banned.

Relax he isnt off the line for you to threaten him. Say no to powertrip

Yes that's what i meant. Can't seem to find info on what exact electronic system is in there, but given the fact that dorsal spine has a large volume, rest assured it would be a very powerful one. PAF should get it's hands on F-16Ds if possible. I am sure the senators in US Congress would approve as they can keep the assembly lines working.

We have the approval for 36, so 18 more in the pipeline

And no you will not get info regarding electronics.

 

[Donatello]

Relax he isnt off the line for you to threaten him. Say no to powertrip



We have the approval for 36, so 18 more in the pipeline

And no you will not get info regarding electronics.

Storm Force is back to his usual rants. Someone needs to tell him the current JF-17 lot is more than enough to take on Migs and Mirage 2000. If and when they get upgrades. *Sigh*

 

[Informant]

Storm Force is back to his usual rants. Someone needs to tell him the current JF-17 lot is more than enough to take on Migs and Mirage 2000. If and when they get upgrades. *Sigh*

Bhai paisa makawa! Imagine the possibilities had our budget doubled for the airforce. Indians would actually be outmaneuvered by us.

 

[Viper0011.]

I,M JUST NOT CONVINCED YOU CAN DOMINATE. with fleet of vintage F16s
The indian fighters are newer than the bulk of the PAF F16 FLEET

Wait, do "vintage" F-16 become slower in performing agile maneuvers due to "old age" during a dog fight? Or does it lose its speed as the engines can't bleed enough due to being old like old people? .....or does it not detect a twin turbine jet from 100 miles away and can fire AMRAAMS from looong distance...???
I am super confused by your post. This isn't Joe the "old-man" who's performance decreased due to old age and being a human being. It's the F-16 with BVR capability and modern avionics. Unless its being pitched against the F-35 or the F-22, everything else, it can handle. You can count on my words as almost two dozen air forces trust this jet.

 

[Last Samuri]

Indians had the chance to license build f16 with tot in mmrca. The Indians declined it on both grounds of current and future capabilities and USA interference and sanctions.

Good decision brilliant fighter but too much baggage.

Greeks fly both the mirage 2000 and F16 and they rate the French fighter higher.

Finally f15 eagle have massive rcs yet they always win in a dog fight or any engagement. Destroying the myth that rcs and small agility is be all and end all

Pakistanis putting faith in USA hardware we say good luck

 

[Indus Falcon]

Nobody is selling block 52 OTHER THAN USA.

100s of block a and b F16 availabvle globally

You mean to say China is NOT selling! Thanks for letting us know!

 

[Indus Falcon]

Indians had the chance to license build f16 with tot in mmrca. The Indians declined it on both grounds of current and future capabilities and USA interference and sanctions.

Good decision brilliant fighter but too much baggage.

Greeks fly both the mirage 2000 and F16 and they rate the French fighter higher.

Finally f15 eagle have massive rcs yet they always win in a dog fight or any engagement. Destroying the myth that rcs and small agility is be all and end all

Pakistanis putting faith in USA hardware we say good luck

Please remind us whose bison's are falling out of the sky? Whose limping combat aircraft has an American engine, even then is no where closer to production? Whose aircraft parked in the tropical sun had their electronics frying?

The fundamental reason indians come to this forum, is to belittle and abuse a country 1/5th their size, whose existence boils them to the core, and it's capabilities gives them sleepless nights; to say the least!

 

[gambit]

Indians had the chance to license build f16 with tot in mmrca. The Indians declined it on both grounds of current and future capabilities and USA interference and sanctions.

Good decision brilliant fighter but too much baggage.

Greeks fly both the mirage 2000 and F16 and they rate the French fighter higher.

Finally f15 eagle have massive rcs yet they always win in a dog fight or any engagement. Destroying the myth that rcs and small agility is be all and end all

Pakistanis putting faith in USA hardware we say good luck

Ain't no 'myth', pal.

I said this often on this forum and I advise you to think about it: In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours, and cheating is allowed.

The 'rules' are any kind of advantage, technical and/or non-technical. A technical advantage is higher thrust or a larger radar or higher turn rate. A non-technical advantage is superior training from a combination of institutional knowledge and actual experience, which includes combat.

A lower RCS and agility are technical advantages and if you can compel others to place a higher level of awareness on them at the expense of other areas of aerial combat, you effectively forced your opponent to fight under those rules (advantages). You forced him to play his radar for longer duration, thereby giving his position away and allow you to play yours less.

I know what a clean F-16 look like on a radar scope and to even TRY to make fair the odds, I would need a large radar system like the one on the F-15.