Buying and upgrading old F-16 - Are they worth it?

[Last Samuri]

Bars pesa is the largest radar and techincally the best gambit. In the south Asian peninsula.

The pesa radar on the mki wil remain the best until either paf or iaf field an aesa.

The best awacs plane in this sub continent is the phalcon awacs from Israel.

 

[Last Samuri]

To date the f16 and in deed all American fighter have earned their success and reputation by scoring victories over ill equipped and ill trained airforces of mostly the Arab world. Every time the usa or indeed the israelis have had real time situation advantage thru satalities and awacs and superior missles.

Unfortunately for Pakistan they will not have a f16 fleet that enjoys these advantages. The Indians wil have better real time data thanks to their indengious satalites and Israeli radars like green pine and phalcon awacs.

Plus the best Indian fighter Su30mki is the mainstay of their airforce and available in three to one nos over paf f16.

I think the Indians are also much better trained and organised than anyb Arab ait force meaning paf f16s achieving dominance is impossible


itforce and

 

[Indus Falcon]

Bars pesa is the largest radar and techincally the best gambit. In the south Asian peninsula.

The pesa radar on the mki wil remain the best until either paf or iaf field an aesa.

The best awacs plane in this sub continent is the phalcon awacs from Israel.

The best morons are also from India, just go through this forum!

To date the f16 and in deed all American fighter have earned their success and reputation by scoring victories over ill equipped and ill trained airforces of mostly the Arab world. Every time the usa or indeed the israelis have had real time situation advantage thru satalities and awacs and superior missles.

Unfortunately for Pakistan they will not have a f16 fleet that enjoys these advantages. The Indians wil have better real time data thanks to their indengious satalites and Israeli radars like green pine and phalcon awacs.

Plus the best Indian fighter Su30mki is the mainstay of their airforce and available in three to one nos over paf f16.

I think the Indians are also much better trained and organised than anyb Arab ait force meaning paf f16s achieving dominance is impossible


itforce and

Thanks for letting us know PAF is an Arab air force. I didn't know that!!!

On a serious note, what you think doesn't matter in the real world and neither does it on this forum.

Now as to your rant about the IAF, please explain why in every major war, despite it's bigger size, better equipment and better training, like you claimed above, it got it's behind whipped?

 

[gambit]

To date the f16 and in deed all American fighter have earned their success and reputation by scoring victories over ill equipped and ill trained airforces of mostly the Arab world. Every time the usa or indeed the israelis have had real time situation advantage thru satalities and awacs and superior missles.

Unfortunately for Pakistan they will not have a f16 fleet that enjoys these advantages. The Indians wil have better real time data thanks to their indengious satalites and Israeli radars like green pine and phalcon awacs.

Plus the best Indian fighter Su30mki is the mainstay of their airforce and available in three to one nos over paf f16.

I think the Indians are also much better trained and organised than anyb Arab ait force meaning paf f16s achieving dominance is impossible


itforce and

Is that your logic ? That just because the Arab air forces lost that automagically made the Indian Air Force superior to the Arabs ? Having AWACS does not guarantee success. It is about how to exploit additional information, especially under combat stress, that will make or break an air force. So unless you can show that the IAF consistently have superior training regiments that progressively becomes more difficult and stressful, to the point of the American Red Flag, Top Gun, and Fighter Weapons School, you should be careful in making blanket statements about victories.

 

[janon]

...

Now as to your rant about the IAF, please explain why in every major war, despite it's bigger size, better equipment and better training, like you claimed above, it got it's behind whipped?

It didn't.

...
So unless you can show that the IAF consistently have superior training regiments that progressively becomes more difficult and stressful, to the point of the American Red Flag, Top Gun, and Fighter Weapons School, you should be careful in making blanket statements about victories.

IAF only needs to be better than its opposition - ie, PAF and PLAAF.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Is that your logic ? That just because the Arab air forces lost that automagically made the Indian Air Force superior to the Arabs ? Having AWACS does not guarantee success. It is about how to exploit additional information, especially under combat stress, that will make or break an air force. So unless you can show that the IAF consistently have superior training regiments that progressively becomes more difficult and stressful, to the point of the American Red Flag, Top Gun, and Fighter Weapons School, you should be careful in making blanket statements about victories.

He is Indian he can fly to the moon, mars, pluto and back, in an MKI, don't mind them.

 

[janon]

Well you can go blue in the face denying it, but you are entitled to your opinion

It's a fact, not an opinion. The record speaks for itself, and numbers don't lie. Complete air supremacy in east Pakistan, and air superiority in the west. Our migs and naval seahawks merrily pounded the governors' mansion in the east, and the our hawker-hunters decimated half your armour in the west, in the biggest rout of armour by aerial power ever seen between WW2 and the gulf war in 1991. The PAF was wisely MIA, scared of a worthier foe. Even our naval aviation enjoyed absolute and unchallenged supremacy over your country.

Right now you have Bisons falling out of the sky, LCA unable to get to the production stage, despite an American engine. Electronics / Avionics of the MKI frying in the tropical sun. So when will IAF finally pull up it's pants and stop behaving like a kid!

Yes, we have 40-50 year old mig-21s (mostly non bisons, BTW) crashing a lot. Not because our pilots are inferior, but due to our circumstances. We are a poor country that cannot afford an air force entirely composed of brand new jets.

The LCA will join the IAF in large numbers, that is inevitable. It is our country's first modern fighter aircraft, so it will take time. But like good wine that turns better with waiting, it has now become a very mature product, capable of giving any fighter in the neighbourhood a run for its money. You will never understand this, since your country has never attempted to design and produce an indegenous fighter jet. What you are doing with Chinese JF-17s, India has been doing for decades, with mig 21s, mig 27s, jaguars and MKIs. The LCA is an indegenous effort by a country that had no prior experience in aeronautics. As for MKIs, don't worry, they are more than capable of taking on anything that PAF will have in the anticipated future, and will outclass anything you are likely to get your hands on for the next decade. A random report of heat issues from several years back notwithstanding.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Where are Moderators, @Aeronaut @Oscar indian 5th column are back!

Last 3 pages needs cleanup.

 

[Viper0011.]

Bars pesa is the largest radar and techincally the best gambit. In the south Asian peninsula.
The pesa radar on the mki wil remain the best until either paf or iaf field an aesa.
The best awacs plane in this sub continent is the phalcon awacs from Israel.

You just wasted a lot of time by writing silly posts. You even read Gambit's explanation and literally didn't understand any of the points he was trying to make. But you countered him.

All three lines from your post above show me either blind patriotism, sheer lack of actual understanding of these platforms in question or just propaganda. I hope that the IAF's high command doesn't think like the three lines you posted. Otherwise, you might get your a!sses handed to you in a platter with many "distressed" Mayday radcoms. And that's never pretty (specially in your case if the SU-30's are making these calls). I'd suggest understanding a platform's capability before comparing...

 

[Luftwaffe]

You just wasted a lot of time by writing silly posts. You even read Gambit's explanation and literally didn't understand any of the points he was trying to make. But you countered him.

All three lines from your post above show me either blind patriotism, sheer lack of actual understanding of these platforms in question or just propaganda. I hope that the IAF's high command doesn't think like the three lines you posted. Otherwise, you might get your a!sses handed to you in a platter with many "distressed" Mayday radcoms. And that's never pretty (specially in your case if the SU-30's are making these calls). I'd suggest understanding a platform's capability before comparing...

You are Feeding A troll report instead of replying to them.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Man i love these Indians.

 

[ziaulislam]

Well according to Indian investigation report more than half of mig21 crashes were due to training related problem, they blamed that due to lack of advance jet trainer , thus investing 2.8 billion dollars for over 100 BAE jets .

 

[gambit]

IAF only needs to be better than its opposition - ie, PAF and PLAAF.

To what degree ? Often on this forum, the Americans on this forum see derisive comments regarding how incompetent and ill trained our air opponents, notably Desert Storm, were. But they failed to see the flaw in their reasoning that the severely lopsided victory of US air power automatically equals to incompetence on the Iraqi's part.

We learned the air combat lessons of WW II, Korea, and Viet Nam to create a training program, an air combat doctrine, and an air force that demands focusing overwhelming power to any weak point in any defense system. In other words, it does not matter if our superiority is several degrees over an adversary because we do not care to achieve only several degrees of superiority. We aim for total annihilation, first of that weak point, then of his entire air combat capabilities. That is why after Desert Storm, your Indian military leadership said this...

Moving Nonproliferation Forward | Arms Control Association

In the opening chapter, Christopher Chyba and Karthika Sasikumar quote the Indian army chief of staff drawing a lesson from the 1991 Persian Gulf War: “Don’t fight the Americans without nuclear weapons.”

In other words, you have to be willing to fight US at the nuclear exchange level, which pretty much guarantee your own collapse, if not outright national extinction. But for less than a nuclear exchange, all air forces in the world, including the Russian and the Chinese, know that US air power will overwhelm theirs to the point where the incompetence slur will be cast at them in history.

The Indian Air Force must either achieve a series of overwhelming combat successes which would secure a proven reputation, or consistently score high marks in international level exercises that would produce at least a perception of being able to produce a series of overwhelming combat successes.

 

[Viper0011.]

We learned the air combat lessons of WW II, Korea, and Viet Nam to create a training program, an air combat doctrine, and an air force that demands focusing overwhelming power to any weak point in any defense system.
In other words, you have to be willing to fight US at the nuclear exchange level, which pretty much guarantee your own collapse, if not outright national extinction. But for less than a nuclear exchange, all air forces in the world, including the Russian and the Chinese, know that US air power will overwhelm theirs to the point where the incompetence slur will be cast at them in history.
The Indian Air Force must either achieve a series of overwhelming combat successes which would secure a proven reputation, or consistently score high marks in international level exercises that would produce at least a perception of being able to produce a series of overwhelming combat successes.

Thank you Gambit. I've bee trying to preach somewhat same points on here for a while now. These guys forget about the experience the American Military and the Industrial complex has with wars and across so many fronts and with so many different enemies just during the last century. It's very easy to look at Iraq and bitc*h about a weaker air force but its much harder to swallow the fact that no matter who you are or where you are on this planet, the US air power will overwhelm and disintegrate your entire chain of assets in a conflict (if that's the goal).

You are also right on IAF. I think the Indian AF needs to establish a better world standing all around before all these grandiose statements should be made. There is a lot of superman talk but no facts backing up anything.

 

[Last Samuri]

Why you Pakistanis getting so defensive about debate on legacy f16 all of a sudden.

We acknowrdge their great history and record .

But there is s reason why they are being repllaced by NATO and other air forces. Or available for such little cost.

They are a useful asset to pak aitforcre I understand this. Both in dog fighting and mlued bvr .

But to claim dominate and whip your *** and you dont know how to exploit your assets or deploy them is utter garbage fanboy stuff.

Kargil the iaf deployed and exploited well enough.

Didn't see any F16.

The threats of bans and derailing threads is ridiculous and childish.

Its a debate for gods sake